In the latest news, Jeremy Hobson was kind enough to leak to NPR listeners what is going on in the minds of hundreds of millions of Americans, such as Senator Shumar, Senator Reed, President Obama and many others. According to him and Marty Schenker from Bloomberg, the American people would rather renounce their US citizenship than to pay taxes.
HOBSON: And as you have reported at Bloomberg, some people just renounced their U.S. citizenship to avoid taxes.
SCHENKER: It really is extraordinary. In the first half of this year, one – over 1,100 Americans had walked into their embassies and basically turned in their passports versus only 235 for the whole of 2008. And these are people who just are calculating it’s better not to be a U.S. citizen than to face having to pay taxes or prosecution.
From this NPR leak, we have learned that there are only two reasons why stateside Americans have not yet renounced their US citizenship:
- They don’t pay any US taxes
- They pay US taxes but have not yet had the opportunity to move to a different country (a requirement for renouncing)
As a non-American, I have found that people generally change their citizenship for a large variety of different reasons which usually has nothing to do with taxes. Americans must be unique in this regards, differing greatly from the rest of the global population. It is only the Americans who figure that renunciations are only about taxes.
With the bcbusiness booga-booga yesterday (FATCA fait accompli) and this NPR nonsense today (darn tax dodgin’ expats) it seem like misinformANTS are crawling all over the internet these days. It’s a wonder there isn’t a boot-sized hole in my computer screen.
Taxes were far from my mind when I moved to Canada and became a Canadian citizen, at the same time ditching my US citizenship. An immoral and unconstitutional war in Vietnam, an obscene nuclear arms race, overthrowing a democratically-elected government in Chile and in other countries, were among a long list of reasons I gave in my letter to the US Secretary of State on July 4, 1976. I don’t recall mentioning taxes at all, but if I did, it would have been to state that I don’t want to pay taxes for any of the foregoing obscenities, and in Canada my taxes (generally) go for things I believe in or at least can accept and still look at myself in a mirror. Today I would add to that list not wanting to be part of a country that considers everyone born there to be a life-long serf owned by them no matter where they choose to live, no matter where they actually get the government benefits, services and protections that we contribute taxes for. And, I wanted my eventual children to be born in a country I could be proud of and that I thought actually deserved my loyalty, and the US had ceased to be that country.
I don’t have any problem paying taxes to governments, as long as they use those taxes for things I believe to be important and that I don’t think can safely or realistically be trusted or left to the “private sector.” I can’t speak for anyone other than myself as to why I left the US and got a CLN, but I suspect that for a lot of people, it isn’t about taxes or only about taxes (and what is being done with those taxes). But American cheerleaders are so brainwashed into believing US “exceptionalism” they are utterly incapable of accepting the reality that some people who grew up in the US no longer believe in the US and no longer believe it deserves their loyalty. Nor their taxes, once they’ve left and are living and paying taxes somewhere else. Blinkered “exceptionalists” can’t grasp the concept that they’re the only people who think they’re exceptional. The rest of us know better.
And they should re-read their US history and re-discover the issues of “taxation without representation” and taxation by what has become a foreign country to the people from whom taxes are being claimed, which helped stoke the US declaration of independence from Great Britain in the first place. They should look themselves in the mirror, and repeat the immortal words of Walt Kelly: “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”
I know, Em, and just when my blood pressure was just beginning to calm down.
If you think about the timeline of events, and the fact that the issues facing US citizens abroad had only really come to the forefront in 2011, you’d have to assume that those renouncing were already citizens of other countries in order to get through the system so quickly. I also think that the majority would have their US tax affairs in order prior to renouncing. Just guessing though, because we don’t have much for data on renunciants. Are most Brockers US tax compliant upon renouncing US citizenship? I assume none are choosing to go nationless.
@Em, I didn’t technically renounce (I thought I had renounced on becoming a Canadian citizen, automatically, but I now know the word is “relinquish” not renounce, I never swore an oath in front of a US consular officer). Even so, I actually was current with my US taxes until I became a Canadian; I actually filed US returns during the six years I was waiting first for my landed-immigrant status and then my Canadian citizenship to be approved, because a Canadian personnel officer warned me when I first started working here that US citizens (one of which I still was) have to file US tax returns even when living overseas, and I didn’t want to get extradited for tax evasion given that there was a draft-evasion warrant out for me already. I never had to pay a cent, because I was well under the FEIE limit, but I did file the stupid forms, gritting my teeth every step of the way.
And you’re quite right, Bubblebustin, about the citizenship-timing dimension. I can’t imagine anyone is going to renounce (or maybe even be allowed by DOS to renounce) unless they already have another citizenship and preferably passport. Which, given the length of time it takes a) to qualify for citizenship in another country and b) to get your citizenship after you’ve applied, currently taking some folks 24-30 months here in Canada, plus given the need to be current for six years in US taxes if you’re renouncing and ever want to go back to the US to visit family there (or, heaven forefend, have to go there on a business trip for an employer), not many people actually took out foreign citizenship because of US taxation policies. At least in Canada I don’t think anyone who wasn’t already a Canadian citizen at the time the news about OVDI and the FATCA Jihad first came to light (August 2011 was when I heard about those things) would likely even be in a position to book an appointment for a renunciation until about now. So the folks who’ve already showed up in those lists didn’t become non-US citizens because of taxes, whatever their motivations for subsequently renouncing or relinquishing their USC might have been. What happens from now forward may be another story … there may be an even greater uptick as people who hadn’t bothered to take out non-US citizenship finally get over that hurdle, and then queue up at their neighbourhood US consulate to renounce. We probably haven’t seen anything yet, in terms of numbers, by that reckoning …
Born Dual, no life in US. Tax compliant prior to renouncing? Depends on how you look at it. Filed forms? No. Owe anything? No. Reason for renoncing? Don’t care to be ruled by foreigners.
I did not care to comply with any foreign demands, except in order to extricate myself via DOS and a CLN. Any other foreign three letter agency does not concern my Canadian self.
@schubert
I would add to the list the shame I feel being a citizen of the only country in the world to use nuclear weapons to wipe out entire cities of civilians – twice. (Not my decision as it was before i was born, but still.)
@The Mom
Born dual with no choice in the matter, never worked or lived in the US? I don’t blame you for telling them what to do with their tax filings. Not that I wish this upon you, but imagine them coming after you expecting you to pay them tribute? Preposterous.
@schubert1975
I think you’ve laid it out pretty well. We aint seen nothin yet as far as the renunciations go if its only long term expats with pre-existing non-US citizenships who are the majority of renunciants now. For my husband and me, a major reason for entering OVDI was to put us in a position to completely extricate ourselves from the US eventually. Soon to be 21 months and still waiting for a response to our submission. I wonder how many more there are like us out there waiting…
Yeah, Obarfalot is coming to Sweden next week, where he will sign the FATCA deal to catch all of the people who have been running away to Sweden to avoid taxes.
Geez….
This is the NPR new “Here and Now” program that replaced ‘Talk of the Nation’, and if this is the crap they are putting out as conventional wisdom news, heaven help us…
Here is the link to the story and the actual web site where you can comment…
http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2013/08/30/swiss-bank-accounts
The expert Guest Marty Schenker, executive editor of top news for Bloomberg tweets as @mschenker
Jeremy Hobson tweets @jeremyhobson
Yeah, it is amazing how they have written the script right out of the hands of Levin & Obama. NPR has a direct line to their offices.
thanks for the other link, Just Me.
@Bubblebustin…
I couldn’t get signed in to comment, so I have hit them with a bunch of tweets tonight. That’s the best I could do…
I saw Honeybadger and Whitekat’s comments. I hope some other Brockers do some educational comments for these guys. I wished they didn’t hide their emails…
Here’s my comment. I hope that I’m not being uncivil:
It says “post below”, but I can’t get anything up that allows posting. I used to be able to post on the old NPR format.
Good one, Mark Twain. I hope you can eventually shove it under the NPR gate. I didn’t comment at NPR (it’s that Disqus thing — don’t want to get involved with its annoying e-mails again) but if I could’ve this is what I would’ve written …
So Marty thinks it’s mostly about tax evasion but I beg to differ. The US government has two witch hunts going with FATCA. One is against foreign financial institutions (Swiss banks are a special target) and the other is against US persons (at home and abroad). This is the great American hegemon trying desperately to maintain the worldwide reign of the US dollar while keeping a tight rein on all US persons. FATCA is NOT about “tax cheats”. FATCA is about control. The best guess is that FATCA will only raise 800 million dollars per year for the US treasury. Meanwhile the financial institutions outside the USA will be shelling out hundreds of billions of dollars to set up their computers and hire compliance officers in order to deal with the complex and often confusing FATCA instructions issued by the IRS. You’d think the financial institutions could just offer to pay an extortion fee in return for the scrapping of FATCA but their offer would be denied. It’s control the USA wants not the 800 million which is only enough to run the federal government for 2 hours. So Uncle Sam and Marty just turn their eyes to the sky and whistle the Star Strangled Banner while institutions and individuals drop under a heavy load of FATCA crap.
Oops, sorry. Should have been — Good one, swisspinoy.
@Em
I thought your reply was too good not to post so I took care of it for you. I hope you don’t mind.
I’m renouncing this month because my spouse who is not American objects to the U.S. rifling through his banking information among other reasons none of which has anything to do with taxes. A large part of it is stress and cost to file. I have lived in Canada for over 30 years having married a Canadian and moving here as a young woman. I raised my son here. Canada cared for my son and still does through thick and thin with his illnesses. To be honest many years ago I thought if I ever had a child I might move back to the U.S. to be able to raise him near my family. However, when one has a child born with multiple medical issues it is a very quick lesson in why living in the U.S. in such a situation is a horrible idea. No insurance we could have afforded and no other would have taken us on. I stayed because of the stellar care my son got here. I stayed because ultimately I believed Canada a better place for him to grow up in too. No future war to worry about for the most part, not as much crime, better schools and he was born here. It’s his country and so it became mine. All along Canada aligned much better with my belief system anyway. Maybe it wasn’t an accident of meeting my spouse that landed me here after all. I don’t know. I just know this is where I fit and this is my home.
Renouncing for me has to do with doing what is right for my Canadian family and that’s all. If I stubbornly insist on staying a U.S. citizen I will be saying to them that though we are already in a precarious situation I wish to make it even worse. I can’t and won’t do that.
I left a comment- hopefully it will be posted. The ignorance exhibited by NPR and the Democratic Party is disappointing but worse its dangerous.
As stated many times, I agree with you:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/05/07/senator-rand-paul-introduces-bill-to-repeal-fatca/comment-page-6/#comment-331031
One more example of the sorry state of American ‘journalism’. Beyond pathetic!
@Steve, it looks like my comments were deleted.
@AtticusinCanada, that means that they read one of the comments and it happened to be yours. So, you can feel yourself lucky. America heard you! (for a brief forgotten moment)
@ Uncle Tell
Nice to see you around again. My comment via you isn’t up yet (I’ve been getting moderated a lot lately so no surprise) but no matter because there are some super new comments up today to add to the ones that were already there. That’s tellin’ ’em Brockers! I’ve been shooting out “up arrows” for y’all.
@SwissinPinoy,spoke too soon, comment is back. Maybe a bad refresh or something the first time.