AtticusinCanada has written a nice little summary of her sufferings–I nominate it for the comment of the day award:
My whole life has changed because of this. I’ve felt immense grief that the only way to deal with and move on is to renounce. I always assumed if you were born some place you were entitled to that citizenship without any other need of proof. As long as you didn’t commit treason or some serious crime you were a citizen. I had never, once heard of an FBAR! I called the IRS many times over the years to make sure I still was within their rules and nobody every mentioned such a thing. Nobody mentioned when after 9/11 we were required to get a U.S. passport either. Some have said that it’s written on page 4 of the passport. Well, my vision is VERY bad even with glasses and I never even attempted to read those pages. I assumed if it was anything important I would have been told about it and barely glanced at the tiny,tiny print on those pages. Couldn’t someone have informed us when we landed here? In fact up until I had to get a U.S. passport I wasn’t too sure I was even a citizen there anymore sometimes since the person I spoke with when I landed at Buffalo insisted over and over that “You may lose your U.S. citizenship over this” So when I went for that passport in the back of my mind I was worried they might not give me one. When they did I mentioned the fact I’d been told I might lose my citizenship and the person there did say “No, you were misinformed.” I came here in 1980 so maybe the rules were different or something back then but, I only landed and had not taken citizenship.
The constant worry about money and fines, fees, penalties. The hours and hours lost trying to figure out the right paperwork, how to fill it out, who to trust or not and how in the bloody hell to pay for this “compliance” has made my rheumatoid arthritis flare up over and over when it was under control before. I have been in the hospital once with a terrible breathing problem they couldn’t get under control except for the use of steroids over a long period. I now think this was brought on by extreme stress. The situation was so bad at the hospital that I was questioned about extensive measures and did I want to be “revived” if things got worse. That situation also made my son’s illness worse since one of the things wrong with him is severe panic disorder and depression. He was there and had to witness the situation in the emergency room and hospital. I have no doubt in my mind at all that I was made sicker by worrying over this and fretting day in and day out. Loss of sleep, constantly trying to figure out “the right thing” only to find out that not even the IRS knows the “right thing” many times.
I found out about all this after the death of my mother and in the midst of dealing with a very difficult sibling. I wouldn’t have owed them a thing. In fact they owed me 600 dollars which I am afraid to claim. I still believe there are thousands of people who do not yet know about this at all!
I’ve had my tax forms prepared twice at quite an expense and I’m sure the paperwork is wrong and so have not sent it in. I have not done FBARS as I would need help with them and cannot afford it. My sons illness has flared really badly twice since I found out about this and some of his treatments are very expensive so any “extra” money I have goes to that. Not that we have any “extra” money!
How can anyone actually say how much they are affected by this since it just invades every area of your life. I haven’t been able to put this on the back burner and not worry about it even when something good is happening. As I said above I have one sibling who is a very, very difficult person and so telling my family I’m renouncing has been just peachy. That sibling will use this for the rest of my life to portray me as a “bad” person to other family members at every opportunity. So not only did it strain my marriage, it put me in the position of being a perpetual “black sheep” who will be “tolerated, pitied and disliked” an outsider, not “one of them” I’m so looking forward to having to deal with the dynamics that will go on once I have renounced. Some will know better but, others won’t.
Lately, this situation has lead to problems with my spouse because I haven’t renounced yet. It’s not that I don’t want to. I am terrified to go forward and file all that mess should a penalty be assigned to me. And tax payer advocate or not, I am just not in any physical shape right now to drag myself through such an ordeal. It’s GOT to be done but, this is such a catch 22!
This stupid witch hunt which people inside the U.S. think is going after the uber rich “off shoring” in “tax havens” has done more to harm low and middle income “targets” than anything I’ve seen them do down there in a long time. I have learned a hard lesson about what citizenship taxation is and what it means. I’m sickened by the comments I see on certain U.S. based articles. Is this who they really are?? Oddly, I think not. I think if it were happening to THEM they’d have a completely different opinion which makes them very selfish. The thing I am most angered about at the moment is that comment by President Obama last week that they are paying to fix their infrastructure by “repatriating taxes” First off that is a LIE, it’s NOT “taxes” It is fines and fees and penalties on paperwork nobody ever heard of outside the U.S. for the most part and they know it. If it were taxes it would even come close to being enough as according to American Citizens Abroad 82 percent of expats would owe zero taxes. Secondly, it told me that all this suffering was PLANNED. That they are NOT going to RBT and do not ever want to. That they know what they are doing and know no one inside the U.S. will care.
As some here have said it’s not the America we grew up in for those of us that did grow up there. Or maybe it is and we’re just now seeing how they operate with those that don’t live there. At any rate the feeling of betrayal and back stabbing runs deep. Like many of you I have spent decades here feeling I had to defend the U.S. at times and stand up for Americans because I felt many times they were all negatively portrayed and not all Americans are bad people. I had to deal with this daily since my mother in law was staunchly anti American. Coming to a new country and having to deal with her hurtful remarks was hard but, I DID win her over. Her and most people who got to know me well. I feel the U.S. is losing something they cannot get back. They can never make us back into good will ambassadors ever again. There was little justification for us to do that in many cases to begin with and now there will be none.
At any rate my main worry is keeping MY health up because my son needs me to be healthy. I can’t help him when he needs it if I go down too far. I’m just going to renounce, file what I can by sending it straight in and not going into any “program” as I do NOT trust ANY of their “programs” Why they would put families abroad who would not owe them a dime in taxes through this is beyond shocking to me. As Obama said they are going to rebuild their infrastructure by “repatriating taxes” NO it’s not “taxes” It is fines and fees and penalties on zero taxes owed in most cases. Who ever thought up such a plan and feels it is right is an immoral, vicious jerk.
I now believe there is no hope for them to resolve any of this with residency based taxation as the evidence and Obama’s comments show this was planned and is being done on purpose so why on earth would the let any minnows go and not penalize them?
@ Money,
“The wording on closing document just had my name as TIN, but it had warning that failure to produce correct TIN was a criminal offense.”
The IRS forms and public statements are big on threatening. But in reality, if they’d saw the TIN missing and wanted it, they’d probably just contact you and tell you to get one. It’s not like you were using some fake TIN or someone’s else’s TIN to pull a fraud, for example.
For IRS/DOJ to even get a conviction against you in US court in the first place, they would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (the highest burden of proof) that you committed a crime. From what I’ve read of your situation, I just don’t see that – as they can’t risk the labour and expense to prosecute people unless they feel they have a reasonable chance of conviction, they wouldn’t even try. So, I wouldn’t even worry about criminal action being taken in the first place.
@ money,
Further to Pacifica’s information for you, I have just found, in looking for something else, this old comment regarding Supreme Court ruling: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/07/16/canadian-bankers-association-maura-drew-lytle-responds-to-the-isaac-brock-society/comment-page-2/#comment-36308
(I have just returned from a trip to Yellowknife and have been out of contact for the past little while. I’m trying to read all I’ve missed. I recommend a road / camping trip to the far North — or anywhere — to feel once again somewhat a normal person.)
@ All,
So many of our stories are heart-wrenching. I always come back to this post, which exactly captures what I feel. http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/ “My Wound is Geography” says it all. USCitizenAbroad always boils it down to what we can understand, what we feel, the immorality of all of this.
Thanks to all of you brave folks for continuing the conversation with various media persons, sharing your most personal information. We have made progress. We cannot give up. As always, we are so fortunate to have the excellent resources of Isaac Brock and Maple Sandbox. Don’t let the bast***s take you down and take our lives is paramount.
People thank for your help. I still have some decision to make by Friday. This is when the first IRS letter ask for a response. This one is a friendly letter just asking for taxpayer ID to be used on withholding certificate. Unfortunately they send the letter for my stepmother to me as well as my own.
I opened the letter saw that it was not mine and sent it to her. I did not want to be accuse of obstruction of justice by not sending her this letter.. So the IRS may say I know about.
Another disappointment from a Lawyer this one a immigration. She cancelled an appointment I made with her assistant for tomorrow. I have a suspicion that the tax lawyer who gave me wrong advice last year contacted her not to talk to me. I called her and she had no answer about whether the green card renunciation procedure was less formal 30 years ago. Similar to ex-pat prior to 1994. This is 3 or 4 lawyer that I have found to be near useless. I held up sending freedom of information on my immigration file for a week. I may still send it down unless people think that this request will cause the information to be sent to IRS as well. Does anybody know if freedom of information request will result in other US department knowing about the request?
When I found out about closer connection requirement. I told that Tax lawyer last year I wanted to get rid of the survivor rights condo as clean as possible from USA. Mentioned I would let the condo association take over the unit and get nothing out. He mentioned the withholding and I mentioned I would not try to recover it and file USA taxes. He did not mentioned that this was impossible not to do.
Calgary 411
I know about revenue rule. I do not know what the regulation, about not filling taxes. Whether the Canadian courts would consider not filling non resident taxes an issue. There is no such thing as non resident taxes or closer connection in Canada. Since my Canadian taxes were filled and are clean.
If you are in Canada for 183 days or more you a Canadian resident. In fact I have not been in USA since April 2012.
Pacifica
I am not worried if a formal Canadian court heard the issue on applying for Taxpayer ID. I think the way it was written it said nothing about applying to IRS
If I decide to get a TIN which would be my old social security number, I would have to go to consulate to notarize.
Extradition courts do not use reasonable doubt, what they follow is it a crime in home country, (not filling may be a crime in Canada but would it apply to non resident taxes) and is there sufficient information for an indictment. My worry is that they can extradite me for not filling when taxes are zero and then hit with all the FBAR and various other issues.
The only real money US based money I made is the sale of that stupid condo which would have a negative capital gain.
I have faith in the conservative justice minister to fight against extradition.
The Trudeau liberal I would not trust. They like unfair taxes (NEP & PGRT). This is why I went down to USA in 1981. I came back when I as laid off in 1982 biggest mistake of my life.
While I sure appreciate Kal C advice The IRS know my name address and if they contact the closing company they can get my driver license information from Canadian notary. My name is not very common and it would not be difficult for them to obtain my old social security number and bring up the rest. They can track my cancelled check and know my main banking connection. I am changing this over to another Bank. Even though my income is modest I have enough net worth it may be worth there while to steal all my assets. The Canadian government will lose as most of my net worth is unrealized capital gains and RRSP.
I am now leaning to asking IRS for time to go to consulate to get TIN. I would supply them with TIN I would then not file taxes. You need the I-407 to file as non resident, You may also need 8854 or whatever.
Comment are appreciated.
Can they possibly freeze my accounts which are Canadian dollars only?
Thanks to all
I may still try contacting Canadian Bar only attorney about situation. The USA Bar attorney interested in following US law and screwing us.
The one problem in requesting my old social security number.
The wording on my closing document is that withholding is required If I am a foreign person. There is a triple negative is .
To inform the buyer that witholding tax is not required… The sellers afirm
That the following is not true. 3 items later. I am not a non resident alien according to IRS rules.
KalC if you have received IRS letter in the past Will they contact my Canadian Bank if you do not respond to first letter?
@ The Mom, thank you so much for your message to money. It has helped me too. I was just sitting here thinking about this being another loss needing to be grieved. When I found out about this we had six deaths in my family in a nine month period. That was a year and a half ago, I’ve barely had time to process that *still haven’t!* and the loss of my citizenship is another “death” to grieve. Dealing with my sons illness on top of all this renouncing/FATCA fear b.s. plus my own health issues, dealing with my mother in law in hospital her death, my own mothers death, two uncles, a cousin and a best friend in one nine month period. The day of my mothers funeral they found my cousin dead in his home a suicide..Trying to sort out estate affairs while my sibling made everything absolutely unbearable at times. I know everyone here has had so much on their plate it is a wonder we are able to deal with all of this at all. I know all about care giver burn out as I went home and took care of my mother on hospice. I also did the same that same year for my mother in law. Hoping at the end of all this death to get a break and finally be able to return home to grieve, rest, process and deal with my son’s health issues, I found out about FATCA. My life has been off kilter so badly I have really weighed whether or not I need to go get on anti depressants for a while myself.
@Money, I do think everyone is giving you good advice. This is just a trial we have to get through. It’s not impossible and it’s not hopeless. It is extremely difficult just like other difficult things in life but, there is SO much support here. So many before us have already got through it. You can too. This site makes it so that no one has to get through this mess alone. That’s invaluable and something to be grateful for. Everyone has a lot to bear and deal with. Try to focus on being done with this. Take small steps and don’t get lost in the “what ifs”
@Mom, I am really grateful to you for your message!
I have another question the notary that notarized my documents is one of the few US immigration lawyer in this city. I just picked him as a notary because he was so easily available. He is the one that is most readily available. If I contact him will he immediately contact the US consulate or closing company if I bring up issue regarding getting I-407.
Thanks
Atticus – I can relate to every one of your statements. Be strong.
Take care Atticus.
I have until Monday afternoon to respond to the first of IRS letter this one was for TIN for withholding amount.
I have requested my complete alien file through a G639. I may send in another request for a copy of my I-407. I am going to see a US immigration lawyer Thursday, to see if there is a fast way to get my I-407 in addition I am going to find out if the renunciation of green card status 30 years ago was less formal.
In addition I have been informed by one of Issac Brock society member that my old social security number may only show L-1 status. Depending on these results I may still request my old social security number and submit it to the IRS which may be the legal requirement from the closing company statement. Even though I can argue that I though my name was my taxpayer ID. I may not file USA taxes even though there would be a rebate of withholding. I do not want to deal with other issues on 1040NR. The CRA will not collect taxes of a citizen and the courts will not collect because of revenue rule. I can show to Canadian government that there was no net income from sale of condo. I doubt failing to file non resident USA taxes is an issue for Canadian courts. The closing company can contact the notary in Canada and get my birth date and this may allow IRS to check my social security status. Which may make not doing nothing the least attractive issue. They also can check my major bank where I deposited the proceed of survivor right condo sale. I have been moving money out of this institution and I may use what is in there to buy a real estate property in Canada. I have no US$ holding. I know either way I will get nasty letter from the IRS, but I want to clear up the correct taxpayer ID as much as possible.
Would it better for me to ignore the first letter or ask for a delay? I can point out the W7 request requires a certified copy of my Canadian passport. Until I find out about I-407 and other issues I really do not know if I want to submit my old social security number. They failed to inform that you needed a certified copy of my passport. I will not get this until after labour day. Has the IRS have anyway to freeze C$ account with the bank where I deposited the money? The IRS really do not need the TIN for tax reason until June of next year,
An advice?
Money You don’t listen to me so I don’t know why I bother but here goes.
Respond to IRS letter asking for TIN with the following non-resident alien
or ignore it.
‘non-resident alien’ goes in place of a TIN
I listen to you KCal. but I am easily traceable, I also believe that IRS will increase it computer power.
I made a mistake in following a lawyer advice when I told him I would not apply for withholding tax credit. He did not mention I really could not do that. Therefore I am really worried about making the mistake again.
My main worry is the perjury clause requiring me supplying of correct Taxpayer ID, this could be extraditeable.
If I do not file non resident tax, what can they do to me Canada. I do not think the IRS can do anything.
In fact there would no tax payable but I do not want to file for other reasons.
My understanding is that If I apply for non resident alien TIN it will be reject because of old Social Security. It may be that the social security may be related to origanal L-1.
I hope to have my alien file in a month. It may have my I-407 status.
My main concern know is how to respond to first letter? If I do not respond to first letter will they try and contact the bank where I deposited the house sale check.
KalC ,If you had the exact same experience of selling a US property and them not coming after you please tell me? I do not care about silly IRS letter I am talking about legal actions.
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