AtticusinCanada has written a nice little summary of her sufferings–I nominate it for the comment of the day award:
My whole life has changed because of this. I’ve felt immense grief that the only way to deal with and move on is to renounce. I always assumed if you were born some place you were entitled to that citizenship without any other need of proof. As long as you didn’t commit treason or some serious crime you were a citizen. I had never, once heard of an FBAR! I called the IRS many times over the years to make sure I still was within their rules and nobody every mentioned such a thing. Nobody mentioned when after 9/11 we were required to get a U.S. passport either. Some have said that it’s written on page 4 of the passport. Well, my vision is VERY bad even with glasses and I never even attempted to read those pages. I assumed if it was anything important I would have been told about it and barely glanced at the tiny,tiny print on those pages. Couldn’t someone have informed us when we landed here? In fact up until I had to get a U.S. passport I wasn’t too sure I was even a citizen there anymore sometimes since the person I spoke with when I landed at Buffalo insisted over and over that “You may lose your U.S. citizenship over this” So when I went for that passport in the back of my mind I was worried they might not give me one. When they did I mentioned the fact I’d been told I might lose my citizenship and the person there did say “No, you were misinformed.” I came here in 1980 so maybe the rules were different or something back then but, I only landed and had not taken citizenship.
The constant worry about money and fines, fees, penalties. The hours and hours lost trying to figure out the right paperwork, how to fill it out, who to trust or not and how in the bloody hell to pay for this “compliance” has made my rheumatoid arthritis flare up over and over when it was under control before. I have been in the hospital once with a terrible breathing problem they couldn’t get under control except for the use of steroids over a long period. I now think this was brought on by extreme stress. The situation was so bad at the hospital that I was questioned about extensive measures and did I want to be “revived” if things got worse. That situation also made my son’s illness worse since one of the things wrong with him is severe panic disorder and depression. He was there and had to witness the situation in the emergency room and hospital. I have no doubt in my mind at all that I was made sicker by worrying over this and fretting day in and day out. Loss of sleep, constantly trying to figure out “the right thing” only to find out that not even the IRS knows the “right thing” many times.
I found out about all this after the death of my mother and in the midst of dealing with a very difficult sibling. I wouldn’t have owed them a thing. In fact they owed me 600 dollars which I am afraid to claim. I still believe there are thousands of people who do not yet know about this at all!
I’ve had my tax forms prepared twice at quite an expense and I’m sure the paperwork is wrong and so have not sent it in. I have not done FBARS as I would need help with them and cannot afford it. My sons illness has flared really badly twice since I found out about this and some of his treatments are very expensive so any “extra” money I have goes to that. Not that we have any “extra” money!
How can anyone actually say how much they are affected by this since it just invades every area of your life. I haven’t been able to put this on the back burner and not worry about it even when something good is happening. As I said above I have one sibling who is a very, very difficult person and so telling my family I’m renouncing has been just peachy. That sibling will use this for the rest of my life to portray me as a “bad” person to other family members at every opportunity. So not only did it strain my marriage, it put me in the position of being a perpetual “black sheep” who will be “tolerated, pitied and disliked” an outsider, not “one of them” I’m so looking forward to having to deal with the dynamics that will go on once I have renounced. Some will know better but, others won’t.
Lately, this situation has lead to problems with my spouse because I haven’t renounced yet. It’s not that I don’t want to. I am terrified to go forward and file all that mess should a penalty be assigned to me. And tax payer advocate or not, I am just not in any physical shape right now to drag myself through such an ordeal. It’s GOT to be done but, this is such a catch 22!
This stupid witch hunt which people inside the U.S. think is going after the uber rich “off shoring” in “tax havens” has done more to harm low and middle income “targets” than anything I’ve seen them do down there in a long time. I have learned a hard lesson about what citizenship taxation is and what it means. I’m sickened by the comments I see on certain U.S. based articles. Is this who they really are?? Oddly, I think not. I think if it were happening to THEM they’d have a completely different opinion which makes them very selfish. The thing I am most angered about at the moment is that comment by President Obama last week that they are paying to fix their infrastructure by “repatriating taxes” First off that is a LIE, it’s NOT “taxes” It is fines and fees and penalties on paperwork nobody ever heard of outside the U.S. for the most part and they know it. If it were taxes it would even come close to being enough as according to American Citizens Abroad 82 percent of expats would owe zero taxes. Secondly, it told me that all this suffering was PLANNED. That they are NOT going to RBT and do not ever want to. That they know what they are doing and know no one inside the U.S. will care.
As some here have said it’s not the America we grew up in for those of us that did grow up there. Or maybe it is and we’re just now seeing how they operate with those that don’t live there. At any rate the feeling of betrayal and back stabbing runs deep. Like many of you I have spent decades here feeling I had to defend the U.S. at times and stand up for Americans because I felt many times they were all negatively portrayed and not all Americans are bad people. I had to deal with this daily since my mother in law was staunchly anti American. Coming to a new country and having to deal with her hurtful remarks was hard but, I DID win her over. Her and most people who got to know me well. I feel the U.S. is losing something they cannot get back. They can never make us back into good will ambassadors ever again. There was little justification for us to do that in many cases to begin with and now there will be none.
At any rate my main worry is keeping MY health up because my son needs me to be healthy. I can’t help him when he needs it if I go down too far. I’m just going to renounce, file what I can by sending it straight in and not going into any “program” as I do NOT trust ANY of their “programs” Why they would put families abroad who would not owe them a dime in taxes through this is beyond shocking to me. As Obama said they are going to rebuild their infrastructure by “repatriating taxes” NO it’s not “taxes” It is fines and fees and penalties on zero taxes owed in most cases. Who ever thought up such a plan and feels it is right is an immoral, vicious jerk.
I now believe there is no hope for them to resolve any of this with residency based taxation as the evidence and Obama’s comments show this was planned and is being done on purpose so why on earth would the let any minnows go and not penalize them?
@money
Don’t let the bastards grind you down, friend. Believe me. This is the mental state that they want you in. To be in fear. This is no way to live. You’ve got to get yourself deprogrammed from that kind of thinking, man!
One of the reasons why I left the USA was because I didn’t want to live in ‘perpetual fear’ of the next ‘made up boogeyman’ like the rest of the idiot masses. Besides. The war on terror is bullshit. The war in Iraq is bullshit. American exceptionalism is bullshit. Their tax policies on us Americans abroad is bullshit. Christ! Look at them now! They ‘win’ the frigging Cold War a scant 20 some odd years ago just to turn into some sort of pseudo-Marxist batshit police state! There was one time I was stopped at the border while leaving the US to visit my wife as this was before I landed, and the border agent actually threatened me. Had his hand on his gun, even! I wasn’t even doing anything but bringing with me a couple changes worth of clothes! Soon as I went through Canada customs at the other end, I was relieved to be the hell out of there, even though I had to go back at some point. You should’ve seen how happy I was once I landed, and once I had all my crap out of the US. Best day of my life so far, but now I have to protect my wife from the prying eyes of the IRS, as her income is none of their business, simply because she happened to have married me!
My country vs. my marriage? Hah! What keeps me warm at night, and what acts like the jealous, and abusive spouse? I don’t have shit but what I do have is my self respect. And what the hell am I busting my back doing all of the damned IRS paperwork for when I don’t have a damn thing, anyway? I’m not dead yet! I still have some life left, and I have someone in my corner no matter what. I’ll go stateless and start over. I will go on. But, I refuse to live in fear, and tomorrow is another day!
Yes. The hardest battle is against the fear. I’m sure that all of us here on this form has faced this specter in our own way, and that some of us struggle with it still. But, we keep on going. I for one, can’t wait to get the CLN in my hand, and yet I’m sure that even long after that day, there will be the occasional hard day to deal with. Yet I’ll go on regardless.
Besides. even If you’ve got no one else to go to, you have us.
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@money, it is very brave of you to share how deeply this has affected you here. I am both incensed and saddened that all of this has caused such horrible pain for you. But you are not alone. It has for most all of us. There is just no excuse for them doing this. I became very angry the other day when I heard Obama say they were going to rebuild infrastructure by repatriating taxes. We all know it’s not taxes at all. We all know this is a witch hunt on honest people. We all the suffering it has caused. How dare he frame this all as something “good” and not tell the truth about what they are really doing. Keep participating and talk to people going through it. This has turned into a great resource not only for detailed information about what FATCA is but, is also a wonderful resource for support.
@mjh, yes, it comes down to your country of birth or your marriage. For so many that is the choice. I’m with you. No way I’m keeping U.S. citizenship over the well being of my spouse.
I have very limi9ted ability to deal with stress I may ask some question in the short term future here I may need answers that are factual not arm waving ( a old phrase when I worked where people would arm wave saying this is my best project). I even have a lot of trouble concentrating my ideas.
@Money, I too have been extremely frightened by this whole fiasco but as time passes, I believe things are going to be OK. From what I read of your situation, I really don’t think you need to worry so much. Take care! 😉
The Brock Society info and comments have been a great help in getting through the renunciation process. There is however, an important question for all of us who are going through this emotionally difficult period – namely, does the IRS give a “game over” notice – similar to the CLR certificate after renunciation – that the 8854 data has been reviewed and accepted? Or does the waiting just go on and on? I am in the noncovered category.
Any info and experiences would be much appreciated.
Thanks
@Prismed: Or does the waiting just go on and on?
That one. You hear nothing but echoing silence unless they disagree with something on your return. In that sense, no news is good news. (It is however pretty arrogant behaviour, but par for the course with them.) If you have proof that your 8854 was delivered then you are in decent shape.
@Prismed, I doubt if we’ll ever get full closure, unfortunately. However, there would normally be a three year statutes of limitation on your final tax return and six years for your final FBAR. If they wanted to be awkward, I suppose they could audit the 8854 as long as six years after filing it. But would have thought if we would be home free if we haven’t heard anything within two years of filing it. Use IRS-approved courier service and pay the extra for guaranteed recorded delivery!
money, I feel so bad for you. I have been where you are now. I want to tell you to take heart, it will get better, it is a process much like grieving.
Over a decade ago, I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, and spent almost a decade on medication. During that time, I had a child with a life-threatening illness I could not control. I was at my mother’s beck and call, for daily assistance, due to her own illness, and helped care for her mother with Alzheimers. Within a month of my grandmother’s death, my mother was diagnosed with skin cancer, and I had to take over, as executor, my grandmother’s contentious estate, dealing with my mother’s abusive, mentally ill, alcoholic siblings and spouses. I also had to take over all of my dying mother’s, and alcoholic father’s, legal and financial dealings, medical, personal, and daily care. My non-drinking father dove into a bottle, when my mother received her terminal diagnosis. While taking care of my home, husband, and children. Within 9 months, my mother was dead. Within 8 months after that, my father was near death, and hospitalized awaiting a nursing home, with alcohol-induced dementia. My brother and I had spent 8 months bringing him food at home, trying to keep him alive, and bring him back to life, but he just didn’t care. After 3 1/2 years in the nursing home, he is in hospital with sepsis, so I’m back to running on the hospital’s schedule, as they will only give him meds (antibiotics) when I am present.
I am exhausted, I have caregiver burnout, and I’m still raising my children as a stay at home mom. After getting my father into a nursing home, I entered a medical program to ditch my anxiety meds. I was successful.
Not long after, I learned of this bull of the US reclaiming me, and all that it entails. Yet again, I went through the process of outrage, denial, grief, anger, and resignation that I had become so familiar with over the previous few years. I tried to find a way to relinquish, as I was born dual. I was not allowed. I used a credit card to pay airfare and the renunciation fee, money we did not have.
I currently alternate between anger, and indifference, regarding the attempted abuse the US is heaping upon me. Given my life experience of the last few years, I find that this is a situation, unlike the others, in which I can say no. (Actually, I say F you. ; ).
I will NOT bow down before a foreign government, as a law-abiding CANADIAN citizen, who was told more than 20 years ago that I was not American, by the very same consulate that charged me $450 to renounce. I will NOT jump through their hoops, completing years of ridiculous tax forms, when I owe $0 in tax, even if I was a homelander. I will NOT complete FBARs to report balances and account numbers of my legal CANADIAN accounts to a foreign government. And at this point, I will NOT complete a form informing a foreign government of my assets, under penalty of perjury, “they” require after expatriation.
It boils down to they can do what they want in their own country, to their own residents, but they can do squat to me. Should they care to dispute that, they can show up on my doorstep, at which point I will contact my local law enforcement to escort them from the property, and charge them with trespassing. They are but an annoying gnat.
I will not be reported on under current FATCA dollar amounts, and should those change, I have a CLN. Should they contact me about the 8854, I shall tell them I left the country as an infant, and the exit tax on my baby bottle and rattle should be nominal. Their ability to change law retroactively no longer concerns me. What does concern me is that they should brush their teeth, and use mouthwash, before they kiss my Canadian derriere. I don’t wish to catch what they have.
As I said, it is a process. You will work through it, as the rest of us do. Chin up.
@TheMom
I like your style.
@monalisa1776
Unfortunately for those who’ve never previously filed US taxes, there appears to be no statute of limitations. I’m SOL on the SOL!
Mark Twain says
August 1, 2013 at 6:00 pm
“make repeated willful failure to file tax a failure”
“impose a penalty on failure to file electronically”
“index all penalties to inflation”
“expand information reporting”
There is no statue of limitation on not filling
Will USA try to extradite under these conditions
How many IRS letter before they start sending registered letter.
The Mom
I even talked to my MP constituency office and they thought they could not extradite me. They asked me if I should ask anonymously the USA consulate but it would be to easy to track me down on that case. That stupid Florida right condo my life feels ruined.
Is there anyway that the IRS can freeze Canadian dollar account in Canada based on not paying for filling US taxes?
I am not even a dual citizen just a former green card holder who does not have a copy of I-407.
correcting Mark twain
WhatAmI says
August 1, 2013 at 6:04 pm
The first one actually says “make repeated willful failure to file tax a felony”.
Would Canada consider extradition in that case?
@Prismed
My partner and I are in that very same position, waiting after having sent in our final tax paperwork. We’ve always had to fill out all our own tax material, even that final 8854 stuff, ourselves. The cost of a fancy tax accountant is so far beyond our means it might just as well have been a billion dollars. Never owed anything, never failed to file tax over the decades, filled out the lousy forms as well as possible given being totally devoid of accounting or legal skills. Laughably too poor to be ‘covered’. How hateful the stress and uncertainty is. We’re getting old, have health issues, neither of us can even drive, and my partner has been unable to find any work all year. We don’t need having this additional burden of worry to cope with. If you want some comforting words on this site about this horrid waiting after the final tax submission, I doubt anyone is able to offer such. Simply because no one really knows for certain. Feels like having a monster quietly waiting to take us in its jaws and chew the final juicy bit of lifeblood out of us. Might be soon, might be years from now, might well never happen. We can only get on with our lives and hope for the best. It’s rough though and I truly sympathise with anyone else in this position. What country but the US would treat its expats in such an evil fashion; why that is, is beyond me. Best to keep a stiff upper lip about it perhaps. We’re all in the same boat. .
@money
IANAL, but I *think* it may be that Canada won’t extradite unless the offence is a crime in Canada as well. Can someone who knows about this respond and hopefully put money’s mind at ease?
And I just have a hard time seeing any Canadian judge extraditing a Canadian citizen to the US for failing to file US tax returns on zero tax owing. It would be a major news story!
Can someone who knows about this respond and hopefully put money’s mind at ease?
I’ve tried but he doesn’t want to listen
The house sale may be zero but the IRS may tax may do a deemed disposition tax on my Canadian assets.
KalC I listen but the IRS is a lot worse then it was in the past.
I am asking this because the only real worry I have is being extradited. I do not want this hanging over my head for the rest of my life
I would then consider getting a Tax Payer ID number (which means going to consulate to apply for that discarded social security number). This would eliminate the fear of extradition on not supplying correct TIN. The wording on closing document just had my name as TIN, but it had warning that failure to produce correct TIN was a criminal offense.
I can then burn all future IRS letter.
I am also trying to contact extadition layer on this. There is not a lot of these around.
Thanks People
@Money,
You are amongst friends here, but please remember that we are also confused. Also remember that we are on the WINNING SIDE. Sleep peacefully, it will be over soon.
@WhiteKat
“it will be over soon”. Please expand. Do you have knowledge of a meteor striking the Earth in the near future, or less probable, the US Congress developing the ability to think?
Bubblebustin
Do not forget Obama. But of course taxing people, who have not real connection to USA to pay a whole bunch of taxes is a brilliant idea in their mind. Taxation without representation or benefits.
@Money. Many of us are quite sarcastic and cynical and are making fun of a ridiculous situation. Don’t let our cynicism scare you. If your question is serious: no one will extradite anybody. There are 1 million US persons in Canada and the laws have nothing about extradition. If you never are in USA there is probably Little the USA can do financially, either, especially if the US doesn’t know who you are.
@bubblebustin,
LOL. Just keep buzzing!
@ Money
Extradition Act
44. (1) The Minister shall refuse to make a surrender order if the Minister is satisfied that: (a) the surrender would be unjust or oppressive having regard to all the relevant circumstances
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/E-23.01/page-12.html#h-21