Further to Just Me’s “HR 2299 Calls for Withdrawal of FATCA IGA Reciprocity Tool (DATCA lite)”,
Blaze reports:
We’re not free yet, but check Maple Sandbox for breaking news out of Washington.
James Jatras is reporting a “death knell” for IGAs and possibly for FATCA
Maple Sandbox — It’s Official, No American Reciprocity
Thanks, James Jatras. Thanks, Blaze. Thanks, Petros. Thanks to every Brocker who posts and comments and has added to this important discussion. We stand together against what is not right!
From Maple Sandbox:
Do they really see that FATCA is not the panacea — at great cost all round, that it would not rope in the true tax evaders, just the small minnows — and more US collateral damage?
Now, if only the US would come to their senses and change to Residence-Based Citizenship… and if we could all live in peace in the countries of our choice, reporting our incomes and paying our taxes to and for the countries that give us our benefits.
” It could also give Canada every reason to walk away from whatever is happening with those IGA negotiations…” ~not while Harper has got his head so far up Obama’s rear end that all he sees is horse-pucky. Absolutely disgusted by the “It’s OK for us to ask for information, but not OK for other countries to ask for the same in return” attitude that seems to permeate all homelanders. The only “innocents” they figure are important are all the innocents inside the CONUS that are being affected by the United States being asked to reciprocate on other countries’ demands for FATCA information.
@Animal — thanks for sharing. That Ottawa Citizen op ed about how great the US is was truly nauseating, to say nothing of delusional.
http://thefranco-americanflophouse.blogspot.ca/
This is a very good explanation of the meaning and consequences by Victoria. Thank you for that!
Merci à Victoria pour cet éloquent compte rendu. À lire par tous les intéressés. Je vais fêter le 4 juillet pour la bonne raison!
@ The_Animal, and others
A by-product of the offshore-tax and FATCA witch hunt has been a surge in anti-American sentiment. Distress and rancor are appropriate responses.
However, I believe the majority of Americans don’t know anything about this – and don’t actually care about the bank accounts of US-born Canadians. Average Americans are beset by uncertainty and controversy in every direction: the financial crisis, the culture wars, dysfunctional government, bankrupt municipalities, the gun violence epidemic. Average Americans have more pressing fish to fry.
The insanely malicious and unproductive offshore tax witch-hunt and its spawn FATCA are the result of a close circle of ignorant and self-serving politicians, cynical civil servants and amoral technocrats, and an opportunistic private sector compliance complex. Unlike the on-going debates on gun control, healthcare, abortion, and gay marriage, FATCA is NOT the result of any kind of popular movement or fundamental public belief.
“The fish stinks from the head on down”. This is a failure of US leadership at the elected and top administration levels. It is also a failure of the passive/aggressive strategy world’s politicians and business leaders, who have chosen appeasement, while secretly hoping FATCA would collapse under the weight of its own infeasibility.
The average American’s impression of an “expat” or “offshore tax evasion” is likely to be a wealthy celebrity, or some kind of Master of the Universe multinational tycoon; folks like Tina Turner or Mitt Romney – not the schoolteacher in Korea, the IT freelancer in France, or the Canadian border baby. But the average American probably does not even have a passport – only 36% did in 2012 according to DOS.
What fueled this campaign of fear in Canada were one-sided (and frequently self-promoting) articles authored by the cross-border tax compliance industry (HR Block, Jamie Golombek, et al). It not as if the US government started sending demand letters to every US-born Canadian.
This is not any kind of excuse or apology; the fear and ill-will this has caused in Canada is a disgrace and an outrage, compounded by our government’s complicit silence.
Is the media lazy? On this issue yes, but many of Canada’s top newspapers are also in distress and are slashing cost by firing many senior reporters and editors. Don’t look to the press for any kind of salvation, they are barely afloat themselves.
According to Chris Hedges, everything runs on propaganda today. The news are no longer independent, but a tool.
Merci à vous, Premierjuillet, et bonne fête!
Ce que j’apprécie le plus ici et ailleurs sur ce sujet est la solidarité – l’engagement de tout le monde. Chacun apporte ce qu’il peut et ensemble on arrivera (j’espère) à changer les choses. Un grand merci à vous tous. Ce 4 juillet je suis fière d’être parmi vous.
@The_Animal,
Puke is right! (I hope I’m not being too ‘abrasive’)…too bad we can’t leave comments!
I
My MP answered my email on the present situation of FATCA.
“This issue is affecting people across Canada. Our MPs have worked with the government but even Jim Flaherty has received the brush off from the US government. Our MPs our continuing to fight for fairness.
I have inlcuded a fact sheet on the issue for you.
We have pushed this issue at a national level and the government has also attempted to get the IRS to show some reasonableness on this file. Unfortunately, the US is not willing to back off. There is a fact sheet that helps explain the situation. We are continuing to push for fairness and I have spoken with a number of MPs about this situation.
2 attachments — Download all attachments
Tax Filing and Financial Account Reporting Requirements-1.pdf
93K View Download
flaherty_response_usa_tax_issue_oct_26_2011[1].pdf
1862K View Download
My reply to him.
“The Americans are unwilling to back off….Are they supreme leaders of Canada? of the World?
All Canada has to say is you don’t play /reciprocate , then we don’t.. and the banks can suffer the consequences. What will happen is all the banks in the world will suffer the consequences including those in the USA….
Those who control the banks, control the country…
Are we going to let ours be taken over?
The Flagherty letter is dated 2011…come on!!!!!
I presume the other is as old…
What is the recent information….
There has been something negotiated as I have been told by other sources.
This is not acceptable.
I would like you to find out the recent negotiation and the time this will be signed….
Did you read what I sent? “
Re: northernstar
I think we all need to send a similar letter to our MP’s. They need to understand that reciprocity from the US side now looks very unlikely. This is no longer a “cooperative agreement” or “working together” or “sharing of information”. They need to stop insulting our intelligence and call it what it really is, extortion.
@Marie
I agree…
I sent my MP this first and the above comment had his reply. I also sent it to Justin Trudeau.
“What is good for the Canadian goose is NOT acceptable for the USA gander” (email title)
http://thefranco-americanflophouse.blogspot.ca/
I am not at all surprised to read this latest breaking news,
Please read this link and see this latest news on FATCA. Is the Canadian government going to allow the American government to NOT reciprocate while give in to their demands?
If so, we are not standing guard for our glorious and free Canada. We are giving up our sovereignty. And for what?
I would like your opinion on this.
@bubblebustin,
re http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/07/03/breaking-news-for-your-4th-of-july-celebrations/comment-page-1/#comment-418752
where you said “…H.R. 2299, which would abolish and prohibit existing regulations mandating nonresident alien interest reporting by U.S. banks and credit unions.”
Aren’t those “existing regulations” what Canada has ‘enjoyed’ the benefits of for years now under our treaty, and what Mexico has been striving to receive?
If that’s the case, do you think Canada would be willing to throw that one under the bus to kill FATCA?.”
That is a very interesting point. Seems that the mere fact that some powerful US legislators and the banking lobby continue to oppose ANY reporting on non-residents would be proof that signing an IGA with the US would not achieve anything for Canada – they would be forever dealing with ongoing attempts by powerful US banks AND other US financial institutions like insurance co.s who DO NOT want to discourage investment in the US, and keeping account holders whoever they may be.
It may be that just maintaining the existing situation – without FATCA, is the only thing that Canada is going to get, and that keeping even that will be an ongoing project – care of the bankers in Florida and Texas. Keeping in mind also the very large numbers of Canadians who go to Florida every year, or retire there for portions of the year – and who probably have a US account for piddling household expenses when they are there.
Other countries, in a cooperative multilateral effort may use the existing agreement between the US and Canada as a baseline for what they might want.
So really, if the FATCA IGA was no improvement, and may not even result in any future ‘reciprocity’, why would Canada sign on – and threaten its domestic tax base – which includes the assets of > 1 million deemed ‘US taxable persons’ in Canada?
Would really really like to be a fly on the wall and be privy to the discussions between Canada and the US, or even just within the Harper government on this issue. As it stands, Canada has already, through negligence or ineptness, or ignorance, or ineffectiveness NOT been able to protect our registered Canadian ‘US-deemed-foreign-trusts’ – the TFSAs, RESPs, RDSPs, (and after 2009 IRS, RRSPs and RRIFs only became protected with annual treaty elections for life), sale of our principal residences (some portion of capital gains under a threshold), our unemployment, disability, and maternity income, Canadian mutual funds, etc. etc.
Why does the Harper government think it will get any true benefit out of even the current arrangement, much less FATCA? The US already does not help with collection, so even if they do report to Canada on Canadians living in the US, the US will not help them to collect.
If Canada has been so very ineffectual in terms of the existing Canada-US tax treaty, then FATCA is just handing over so much more of the same. Sacrificing exponentially more Canadian made and held assets after the ones the Harper government already knows are totally up for US fisc tax and penalty grabs. The only way that worked at all so far is that the US was spotty or mostly ignored enforcement. That is now not the case. So, what the H does the Harper government think it has to gain?
Unless it is something else entirely.
@Badger,
That the CSG would go along with FATCA is truly mind boggling. My take is that it was reacting to protect the banks, and out of fear of the bully next door.
I am ashamed that I actually voted Conservative the last election, however the Liberals and NDP seem to have been quietly going along with the whole shenanigans as well.
Green Party has my vote next time around.
Since Canada was not getting anything out of reciprocity anyway, if this latest turn of events does not kill FATCA soon (only kills ‘reciprocity’), then what is to stop the Canadian government from signing an IGA?
@northernstar, thank you for sharing that response from an MP with us; i.e. “…We have pushed this issue at a national level and the government has also attempted to get the IRS to show some reasonableness on this file. Unfortunately, the US is not willing to back off. ..”
Shameful that NO Canadian political party except the Greens have come forward with an official party position against FATCA, and in fact, you would think that FATCA did not exist if you checked their federal party websites. We know, and can prove that we have over time, alerted various MPs and Leaders, provided documentation and robust verification of the situation, and begged them to raise this in public, to take a principled stance, and to at the very least, have a democratic and open conversation with the Canadian public on FATCA and the US extraterritorial attacks and threats directed towards Canadian citizens and residents deemed “US taxable persons” on Canadian soil.
Your MP’s statements contradict Flaherty’s overblown exaggerations in the public statements that he and the Harper government are “satisfied” that the IRS has “listened”: “… I am happy the U.S. government has listened to our concerns.” ………………..
………“These are positive developments. It is yet another accomplishment for Canadians and a testament to our strong working relationship with our American neighbours. I appreciate the cooperative approach of the American authorities. Nevertheless, we will continue to advocate on behalf of Canadians on such issues with the U.S. government, including the implementation of FATCA (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act),” said Minister Flaherty.http://www.fin.gc.ca/n12/12-072-eng.asp
Confirms for us that the US IRS and Treasury are dedicated and singleminded predators of those living outside the US, and that even if FATCA is repealed, to protect ourselves, we cannot expect that they will ever act reasonably or justly. They barely acknowledge the IRS Taxpayer Advocate, much less Canada, and Congress is not interested in us.
The only protection for the future is to renounce/relinquish for those who can and others to take other steps as they are able or see fit.
Everyone must help the others who cannot renounce/relinquish, by continuing to make this as public as possible, try to make this a PUBLIC CANADIAN conversation and an embarrassment for the US and its enablers. By now, or soon, many more of us will have relinquished/renounced, and minnows and others may have passed through the portal of Mordor via the ‘Streamlined’ process (September 1st being one year since it came into force) or quiet disclosures.
The US is a fundamentally arrogant and self-worshipping entity. We cannot expect any fairness, justice and potentially, not even a voluntary adherence to its own laws (ex. see extortionate confiscatory disproportionate FBAR penalties and the 8th amendment americansabroad.org/files/5713/3589/8010/fbarscam.pdf ). If the FBAR penalties are more threat than actuality, then the IRS is using extortion to frighten people into coming forward, using only its sanctioned routes to ‘compliance’ and into paying more than they should. If routine FBAR penalties are a reality, then they are confiscatory and unconstitutional. They have NO relationship to any US tax actually owed. The FBAR is being used as a weapon, and FATCA was devised in the same vein; “Hence, Congress gave IRS section 6038D, Title 26 of the Internal Revenue Code. In short, Congress gave IRS its own FBAR” a former IRS counsel Yates has said http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2013/07/01/fatca-interview-with-bill-yates-former-attorney-office-of-associate-chief-counsel-international-irs/ then we can see where that path leads.
See also;
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/6038D 26 USC § 6038D – ‘Information with respect to foreign financial assets’
http://lwcooper.blogspot.ca/2010/12/supplementing-fbar-new-2011-foreign.html
Try these searches:
“”liberal party of canada” AND fatca”
NDP AND fatca
“Bloc Quebecois” AND fatca
vs.
“Green party” AND fatca
My MP and I are sending emails to each other today…Can anyone find the tenative FATCA agreement that one of our members got from a clerk when he called up…I am sorry I don’t remember who it was. It was not too long ago.
My MP’s latest response when I questioned him about the 2011 letter. (t is so politician talk)
“The letter is from 2011 because we have been working on this case since before then. Unfortunately, not much has changed with the US position. We have dealt with many very frustrated Canadian citizens who feel they are being unfairly targetted by the US. We will continue to push for some level of fairness.”
northernstar,
I believe Marie was the Brocker. Here is the link: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/06/26/its-time-competent-authority-confirms-canandian-fatca-iga-to-be-signed-summer-of-2013/
Re: “Unfortunately, not much has changed with the US position”.
Who cares about the US position?
We are CANADA! Tell USA where to put ITS FATCA!
@Whitekat – Thank you for sending…
I sent him Marie’s comments…I also wrote, that perhaps he is not in the loop.
@ northernstar
That was Marie and the thread is …
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/06/26/its-time-competent-authority-confirms-canandian-fatca-iga-to-be-signed-summer-of-2013/comment-page-1/#comment-405414
Marie spoke to a clerk or “competent authority” at the CRA but someone else spoke to a “senior” official who tried to put the cat back in the bag by refuting what the other had said. I really think the gist of what the clerk revealed is at least in the ball park of being accurate. The CRA would want to gear up for a FATCA IGA ahead of the deadline and I think they got a memo to make it so (i.e. get the bureaucracy in place before the January 2014 deadline).
And just for fun this post up on the Atlantic. Gee, I never learned any of this at school in the US.
🙂
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/the-one-other-country-that-celebrates-the-fourth-of-july-sort-of/259410/
@whitekat.
re: Re: “Unfortunately, not much has changed with the US position”.
Who cares about the US position?
We are CANADA! Tell USA where to put ITS FATCA!”
I second that motion…..
MPs urged to reject contentious tax pact with the US
MPs should reject a controversial tax agreement with the US after it has been revealed that American authorities are unlikely to honour the deal’s fundamental reciprocity clause, says the chief executive of the world’s largest independent financial advisory organisation.
The deVere Group’s Nigel Green is speaking out today – coincidentally American Independence Day – after US Congressman Bill Posey, an influential member of the House Financial Services Committee, yesterday in a letter to the US Treasury Secretary cast doubt on the Treasury’s ability to promise the world’s governments that they can expect financial information reporting with the US to be reciprocal, should they agree to enforce America’s Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA).
Mr Green comments: “FATCA’s supposed guarantee of reciprocity has been the ‘hook’ for many governments, including Britain’s coalition.
“World governments were informed that if they signed a FATCA intergovernmental agreement (IGA) with the US Treasury, in return they will receive information on the financial affairs of their own citizens who live in the United States. The IGA will force all these governments’ financial institutions to report their American clients’ financial activities directly to the US Internal Revenue Service – meaning, in effect, they will act as de facto IRS snooping agents.
“However, as Congressman Posey’s letter underscores, the US Treasury does not have the legal authority to keep this promise of reciprocity.”
He continues: “Meanwhile, MPs could be about to approve Clause 219 of Finance Bill 2, granting HMRC virtually unlimited power to impose FATCA in the UK – at huge expense to British financial institutions which will then, no doubt, be passed on to customers – on the false premise of US reciprocity.
“As such, the deVere Group chief executive is urging parliament to reject FATCA.
“When the FATCA issue returns to the House of Commons, after it has been rubber-stamped in the Lords on 15th July, politicians must vote it down because the US is unlikely to keep its side of the deal,” he says.
“The coalition caved into US demands over FATCA on the understanding that the UK would benefit from a reciprocal exchange. Yet there appears to be no reciprocity that can stick.”
Read more: http://www.economicvoice.com/mps-urged-to-reject-contentious-tax-pact-with-the-us/50038181#ixzz2Y6dkOXdX
US congressman raises doubts US will reciprocate on FATCA
A US congressman has highlighted a potential problem in the complex arrangements under which financial institutions in foreign countries are being persuaded to provide financial information to the American tax authorities, to comply with FATCA.
Opponents of the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, including a US group called RepealFATCA.com, are jumping on recent comments made by Florida Republican Rep Bill Posey.
Posey, a member of the House Financial Services Committee, is casting doubt on the Treasury’s ability to guarantee US financial institutions will be able to provide foreign governments with the sorts of data FATCA obliges foreign financial institutions to provide to the US.
At issue is whether the US Treasury will have the ability to impose on its own financial institutions the equivalent of the reporting requirements that the US is demanding of these institutions’ foreign counterparts.
Posey is reported to have sent a letter yesterday to the US Treasury Secretary Jack Lew in which he expressed these doubts.
There has not yet been much publicity about Posey’s observations, and no major publications are believed yet to have covered the fact of his letter to the treasury secretary. One London-based FATCA expert told International Adviser: “We do not think that this represents a widely accepted view, but would prefer not to comment [officially]”. However, deVere Group chief executive Nigel Green has wasted no time in urging the UK to reject FATCA, citing Posey’s arguments.
Read more here. http://www.international-adviser.com/articleview?apath=/News/Tax—Regulation/us-congressman-unveils-bill
In a few minutes, some Americans will be on Swiss TV discussing “Bye bye America”:
http://www.srf.ch/player/tv/popupvideoplayer?id=c4927fcf-e1a0-0001-7edd-1ef01d441651&starttime=0
I’m not in it because my case is similar but less critical than that of someone else already participating.
Darn, I get an error…