On May 30, 2013 Accidental post the following comment:
Accidental says
May 30, 2013 at 8:01 pmI read that the Eritreans had formed a group and retained the services of a human rights lawyer. Why don’t we co-ordinate as many foreign Americans as we can, spanning, say, 30 cities worldwide? We’ll need a lawyer in each city, and probably a constitutional lawyer in the US to co-ordinate the case. When we’re ready, we co-ordinate the service of 30 class action law suits at 30 embassies simultaneously. We should all challenge the ‘Saving Clause’ in the bilateral tax treaty, without which the taxing authority where we live would have precedence over the IRS; Cruel and unusual FBAR punishment; citizenship based taxation, taxation without representation etc. It seems fraught with jurisdictional and diplomatic issues, but we could at least explore the idea.
Maybe even better. Let’s try to put 1000 of us together. We all contribute according to our means, but that should give us America’s best human rights lawyer, all the way to the supreme court if need be. File in DC and make sure we’re all there for the trial. It’s not just for ourselves, it’s for all the Accidental American’s who’ll be meeting the IRS via FATCA, but most importantly, for our kids, present and future, who stand to inherit a most unfortunate ‘gene’, unless we tend to it now.
It’s time to get started. I note the following comment on June 25, 2013 from Marie:
Attn:Brockers
This afternoon I put a call into the CRA to request some info on Canada’s existing treaty with the US. They forwarded me to Competent Authority, the division of the CRA that deals with tax treaties. They are in Ottawa and can be reached at 613-957-2071. I spoke to a representative that had a great deal of info on the matter. I called with some general questions, she gave me info on the “Agreement”. Here is what she confirmed for me.
First off, the Ministry of Finance had some concerns about s.15 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. They concluded that Fatca reporting does not contradict or conflict with the charter.
1. FATCA is a reality. The agreement will be signed this summer. Info will be available on the CRA website beginning in September 2013.
2. All US persons in Canada are considered US residents for tax purposes according to the US, based on that, Canada considers us US residents as well.
3. Beginning in 2014, Canadian financial institutions will begin identifying US persons to report to the CRA. CRA will report individuals with bank account #’s balances, etc. to the IRS.
4. All bank accounts over $50K will be reported.
5. Registered account such as RRSP’s, RIF’s, TFSA’s and RESP’s are exempt (she did not mention RDSP’s)
6. If your bank account is held jointly with a non-US person, it gets reported as well.
7.CRA’s first wave of reporting to the IRS will take place in April 2015 and will cover 2013 and 2014. After that, balances will be reported once per year in September.
8. CLN/renounciation/relinquishment does not get you off the hook for taxation for 10 years. Your balances will continue to get reported for 10 years after issue of CLN.She recommended that I get my hands on a copy of “A Tax Guide for Citizens in Canada” by Carswell.
There are many more questions that I would like to ask her. I encourage everyone seeking answers to call the CRA for information.
This means the time has come to organize the following legal actions:
1. Class action FATCA lawsuit – A “representative plaintiff” is required. This must be a “tax compliant” (who else would do this) U.S. person who has been “outed by a bank”. I know several tax compliant U.S. persons. One of them might be persuaded to act in this capactiy.
2. Complaints to provincial human rights tribunals – discrimination based on citizenship, national origin, etc.
3. Complaint to those at the UN responsible for the administration of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
We are going to need some central coordination of these things.
I am going to try to transfer subsequent comments to Marie’s comment (as per your request). So, I have (at least for the moment) put all subsequent comments in one long comment. The idea (as per Em) is to try to create a new thread out of this important information. I would note that some of the information that Marie received is clearly incorrect (there is no obligation to pay taxes after one ceases to be a U.S. person). Nevertheless, the gist is significant.
It will be very interesting to see where Congress goes on the question of citizenship-based taxation. I have long been of the opinion that the US will have to move to RBT in order to get FATCA. I still would renounce though. Who in their right mind would want to be caught up in the fear of this any longer than necessary.
By the way, for those who have become lover of Canada in the last couple of years:
The Government of Canada, at the request of the banks, is getting ready to cooperate with the IRS to destroy you.
As USXCanada always says:
Look out for yourself and your family first (in English).
On a practical level I think you can mitigate a lot of the effects of this by using a number of bank accounts at different banks to keep your balances low. Also, RRSPs are not reported. You should get rid of the TFSAs and carefully consider how to deal with the mutual fund issues. You do have time to organize your lives and we have time to organize the lawsuits.
But, taking the lead from “accidental” – It’s time!
I agree with Hazy’s point about the US German IGA and also the US Norway IGA.
I will have additional information later this evening as to some breaking news on the US side.
@ Hazy
I’m still a bit hazy (sorry about that) as to how Canadian banks can even start questioning their clients about their US personhood before parliament has approved the IGA and given the go-ahead to bypass privacy rights. I know the banks can search their existing databases for US indicia right now and have the results ready to go by the deadline but that will only find some US persons, not all by a long shot. They have to present a questionnaire to all their clients and threaten account closure for anyone who won’t put their head on the block in order to capture everyone the IRS is after. They can’t do that until it’s made legal to do that. I hope they won’t try tricking unsuspecting people into fessing up before FATCA is officially in place. I know Brockers won’t fall for any tricks but there are so many people who simply don’t know about this whole mess and they might respond to a casual question from a bank teller.
@Margaret
Welcome to the Monkey House! If you can relinquish it is preferable. The standard questions regard any actions where you may have “exercised” the rights of a US citizen. Paid taxes? Used a US passport? Voted? If not, you have a strong case for backing up a claim of having intended to lose your US citizenship when you became Canadian. There is a post on Renunciation and Relinquishment – look in far right hand column of page. There is tons of info there. Sorry to hear you’re in this mess but it’s nice to “meet” you.
@The_Animal
I guess it’s then a good thing that I don’t have a lot of assets to begin with, and since nothing of mine is attached to my wife, she’ll not have to worry about the FBI intruding into her life per se.
On the other hand, if she wins the lottery, I can’t even touch it without giving a large chunk to the US government. Although she may be safe, this situation is nothing but a serious impediment to my marriage, as well as our lives. She doesn’t fully understand all of what’s going on, but she can clearly see that I’m at the end of my rope in regards to my own government, and that my US passport signifies a serious burden on me.
I now carry on by being proud to be anti-American. What else do I have? And what else can I do? I can either be gutzy and foolish like Mike Gogulski and be without a state, or I can continue to be stuck in limbo, with this proverbial noose around my neck, and wait to be Canadian first. What I can safely say to anyone here is that being stuck like this is a feeling of pure hell. It is frustrating and dehumanizing, and the only thing that takes the edge off is knowing I’m not alone.
@nobledreamer. Thank you so much. This is very helpful. Sounds like I should relinquish since I have no US passport and have done nothing US like. I will get the process underway.
@ Animal, you said: ” I think I’m pretty much the only Canadian born, Canadian shit-disturber that you’ll find around these parts so my lungs are getting rather tired shouting about how stupid Canadians are to sell their country out to the “lowest bidder”
Your wife is a lucky woman!
IMHO, the difference between you and all the those who are also ‘100% Canadian’ (however one defines that) is that you see the tenuousness of the freedom we all have, but they don’t, yet.
As ‘Canadians’, living in modern times, the collective ‘we’ have had it so good, that we cannot perceive of the persecution that is the reality of FATCA and FBARS on the back of US citizenship based taxation.
This is a true wake-up call for ALL Canadians, that we have not seen in 200 years. We have a price to pay for those who suffered before us and fought for what we take for granted today. We owe them, and we owe ourselves, and we owe our children.
mjh49783,
You are so not alone!
Everyone’s situation is different. Some are out of the woods, so to speak. Many have figured out their personal game plans. A
All of us have the ‘US person abroad’ curse in common. Everyone who has been there, and escaped, knows and will forever remember the fear and the outrage.
You cannot live through that, and be human, and walk away, leaving others to suffer behind you.
To tell you the truth, I’ve had to wake up my wife (the American in the family) to this. I guess you could say I’m paranoid (the proverbial tin-foil hat wearer), but I don’t trust government, ANY government. I’ve been doing everything that I can to potentially protect my wife and my kids. I don’t have a hell of a lot of assets. My 600mm f/4 lens is the prime asset that I have as a wildlife photographer. We’re dealing with the money that it will take to get her Canadian citizenship application rolling. With the simple fact that this is all that we can do in order to protect ourselves and hope that the rolling clock will keep us from getting tagged by the US government. I can only hope that she gets her citizenship and CLN in time; the damned IRS can go suck lemons.
@ the Animal
Rest assured, there are others fighting for us. My Canadia-born, Canadian husband has already scrapped it out with Citizenship and Immigration Canada, and Jason Kenney’s office, on my behalf. He was trying to get them to allow me to swear oath of citizenship before an official. His pride and joy was being asked, “How did you get this number?” LOL He was right there with me at my Conservative MP’s office. He contacted our mayor, requesting her intervention regarding the oath. He was with me in Toronto to renounce. He will be with me in whatever I have to do, including accepting my decision should I never cross the border again. If I asked him to march or protest with me in Ottawa, he’d be there. Having been a stay at home mother, for most of our 19 years together, he certainly doesn’t want the US in his finances, or mine.
WhiteKat, I believe the main reason why I see the tenuousness of the situation is the simple fact that I am a Sansei (3rd Generation) Japanese-Canadian. My mother and her mother and father as well as her brothers were interned in Slocan in Interior BC. My grandfather lost everything. The freedom that we take for granted and used as a buzzword by both America and Canada is only as good as the efforts that we take to protect our freedoms. Take a lesson from the experience of Japanese-Americans and Japanese-Canadians. We learned to fight for our rights. We have to in this case as well. We cannot roll over and hope to hell that this goes away.
The Mom, I’m soooo glad that you have such a caring husband in your corner. Count him as an absolute asset to you. I would fight as viciously like a rabid cougar, but I just don’t know where the hell is best for me to focus my energies and rage. And right now, with my wife’s application process at the very outset, I can’t afford to make too many waves that might attract inadvertent attention. I need to keep it on the QT for now, at least until I know that her application for citizenship is approved…and a date for the oath mailed to us. IBS has been a lifeline for my sanity. Thank you for that.
The Animal, i’m so sorry your family had to endure that. I, too, have those feelings. I grew up feeling as though everything around me would collapse, at some point in my life. I’m certain it was due to an upbringing in an alcoholic home, but my university sociology course lifted the veil from my eyes regarding how tenuous our social constructs are.
@Tim
anxiously awaiting your breaking news from the US side 😉
@Animal, I’m so sorry your family had to go through that and now this! I can fully appreciate that you would understand more than others how far a government can go.
@Noble, first one with the best information again! SO helpful and always accurate. I look for your posts as they are so concise and give the basics we all need. It’s so convoluted and confusing at times your posts are invaluable. Good break down in each one.
@Mom, I was a stay at home mom too. My Canadian spouse says “no way” to FATCA. He’s just not going to do it. He faithfully pays his tax to the country of his birth, Canada. We are low middle income and for the life of him he cannot get why this should be happening to people like us. Especially this recent Reed push….they discourage dual, they punish it now for ALL expats, not just those living in the U.S. who “off shore” but, ALL of us. He doesn’t get this witch hunt and the demonizing that’s gone along with it. He gets REALLY angry when news articles talk about FATCA as going after only “U.S. persons” No, it’s U.S. persons and anyone related to you, American or not.
@Whitekat, so glad you are out but, also glad you’re here for support! It’s great to hear from someone born here who gets the very far over reaching implications of FATCA. I don’t know why ALL Canadians aren’t alarmed at this more than they are! The U.S. has bullied our banking industry. Control the banks, control the country. Cancel out our privacy laws, cancel out our Charter. Hardly any of us would owe them any tax so Canada better wake up or be ready to start flying the stars and stripes instead of the Maple Leaf! Canada should have just told the U.S. to go pound salt! We have a treaty…end of story.
@Atticus,
I’m not out. I was born in the USA to Canadian parents.
@Whitekat, I thought you renounced for some reason and were already out and done. Silly me. Sorry to hear that.
The Ottawa Citizen is also reporting this morning that Jim Flaherty is against his wishes no longer going to be Finance Minister after the end of this month.
http://www.canada.com/news/Rumours+swirl+about+futures+Defence+Minister+Peter+MacKay+Public+Safety+Minister+Toews/8583957/story.html#ixzz2XPwLTrFh
In addition to MacKay and Toews, it is widely expected that Jim Flaherty will be shuffled from finance against his wishes due to questions about his health and likelihood of running in the next election.
Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird, Immigration Minister Jason Kenney and Heritage Minister James Moore are expected to also be moved as Harper attempts to put a new face on his government for 2015.
I fully agree – EVERY legal action to resist Canada from proceeding with an IGA should be taken. The Canadian government needs to be compelled to protect the rights of Canadian citizens who fall into the US Person category as defined by the US government.
@Steve,
We sit here like waiting ducks; the chosen few. We whine and complain, and that’s cool because we need somewhere to go and unload all the stress. Our family and friends, either think we are nuts or are tired of listening, or think this is all going to get cleared up because there’s no way this could be as crazy as we keep telling them it is. They, like us, have had it so good for so long, they don’t think the scenario we envision could actually come to fruition. We know better.
Meanwhile, there are many more cursed like us, who have NO clue of the tsunami coming their way. It is going to be a blood bath. That is when our reckoning will come. We’ll be sitting on the sidelines; the shock waves behind us, organizing the revolt. Our time will come. It is not going to be easy. Canada is not our friend. USA is our enemy.
@WhiteKat
You might be interested to know, that I was hiking today up in Heather Meadows on Mount Baker, and ran into a group of Chinese from Vancouver who came across the border today to enjoy the mountains, as it was a spectacular day. We were having a nice discussion and the issue of taxation came up, as there were 2 out of the 10 where were U.S. Citizens. Guess what? They too were grumbling about the U.S. Citizenship taxation and form filings like FBAR. The female really did NOT like that “Trust form” and how expensive it was to stay compliant and file the taxes.
That gave me the opening to warn the others that they should avoid at all cost, getting U.S. Citizenship or a green card. They were better placed being Canadians. And, as an additional benefit, due to where they live could still hike Mount Baker and still shop at Costco and get cheap milk and gas in Bellingham! 🙂
Apparently Eritreans have the world’s greatest need for the services of a human rights lawyer. Reporters Without Borders recently placed Eritrea dead last on their freedom index, mostly because of the high number of journalists who die in jail there.
The US rose 15 places to 32nd and Canada fell 10 points to take the 20th place 🙁
http://fr.rsf.org/IMG/pdf/classement_2013_gb-bd.pdf
@JustMe
Having the opportunity to warn a few more people, must have been an added bonus to your already nice day!
Spent some time recently with group of people living along the shared border. Popular topic of conversation was traveling for the day to the US to shop and dine, visit family etc. Several had Canadian citizen relatives who moved there after marrying a US person. No-one mentioned any of the pitfalls – they seemed not to know. High probability that those who moved to the US do not know that overnight, their legal RRSPs and Canadian bank accounts are now transformed into toxic FBAR and FATCA assets for them – as US residents. And for their new US spouses – if they became joint signatories – as US citizen residents they won’t know about this either, and probably have not planned ahead- so, dark times ahead for them vis a vis the IRS who extends to them a warm welcome to the FBAR and FATCA Fundraiser. Great way to start a marriage.
Popular theme amongst the Canadians was also general disapproval of the US in general – everything from spelling peculiarities to the NSA spying scandal and thuggish behaviours of border and customs personnel. The US has made no friends here, and as things start affecting more and more Canadians, this basic level of resentment and suspicion and disapproval will just escalate.