“Not that Lisa” has just had her ‘Opt Out’ success story published at Jack Townsend blog. It is accompanied by his comments which I encourage you to read.
I came to know of Lisa during my dark days on Jack’s blog as “anon5Percent”. Later, due to her efforts to find me, I got to know her personally via phone and email conversations. She started commenting here as Lisa and evolved to Not that Lisa to eliminate confusion between her and another commenter.
I could not be more pleased about this success, and only sorry for her that it has taken so much frustration, anxiety, expense, and LCUs, which still required the intervention of the TAS for the IRS to “do the right thing”. I asked her permission tonight, to also highlight her 30 month saga to add to the resource of self help material on Isaac Brock Society.
I thought it was important to headline this ‘ORDEAL’ as many places as possible. I think she is being too generous to call her escape from the IRS penalty extraction processing factory a mere ‘Odyssey’. It is a total waste of taxpayers time and money for naught, and represents one of the reasons that ACA has called this abuse to the attention of the committees in Congress who are investigating IRS T-party scandal. We can not let this milestone pass as just another low profile comment on the OVDI Drudgery thread lost to a larger audience.
Below are the documents that she has made available to Isaac Brock Society. They are uploaded here for others to access and use as examples for their struggles.
Not that Lisa – FINAL My OVDI Odyssey
Not that Lisa – FINAL Opt Out letter
Not that Lisa – FINAL Opt Out Reasonable Cause Arguments
Not tht Lisa – FINAL Streamlined Program Acceptance Letter
Not that Lisa – FINAL Mitigated FBAR Level II Non-Willful Penalties
Not that Lisa – FINAL Letter 3800
What follows are her comments:
I offer these documents because fellow victims like Just Me, Moby, Sally, ij and bubblebustin have shared their experiences on both the Isaac Brock Society website and/or on Jack Townsend’s Federal Tax Crimes Site. Their experiences in OVDP and OVDI and their ideas have helped me immensely. I was all alone and learned so much from them. I also much appreciated the supportive comments of Michael Miller.
I cannot thank them enough. I would also like to thank those who have published information or made comments on Isaac Brock. Even if it has not always been directly related to my ordeal, it was helpful in understanding the big picture. Hopefully, by sharing my experiences, others will benefit.
Rather than write additional comments, I repeat here the conclusions I make at the end of my OVDI Odyssey story:
The OVDI process was entirely unnecessary and a waste of my time and money. After 30 months and excessive legal costs, I ended up in the same place I would have been without entering any Voluntary Disclosure Program. I filed amended returns, had an examination and was able to argue reasonable cause.
The IRS wasted lots of money and time to collect my $133 a year. The costs of the Taxpayer Advocate Service were additional public costs that were caused by inappropriate IRS policy. Furthermore, I incurred high legal costs and had to live with undue stress, as I was treated in the same category as criminals who had intentionally evaded taxes.
Nina Olson runs a tight ship at the Taxpayer Advocate Service. Her staff helped me to understand and feel less stressed and they were extremely conscientious as well. Congress made a good decision when they created the TAS and they could Not have a better person to lead it than Nina Olson. I am extremely grateful to Nina, her Senior Attorney Adviser and my Case Advocate. The issuance of the TAO changed my life for the better as the IRS finally started to move on my case.
The IRS policy of “one size fits all” was totally misguided. However, there are good, highly professional agents out there who are aware of this and will use the small amount of discretion they are given within the program. I think there is an unannounced policy within the IRS that one size does not fit all anymore. Outside of OVDI, examiners have more discretion, and the regulations in the IRM can work in the favor of most minnows.
The worst part of OVDI for me was dealing with tax professionals. The lawyers I dealt with made me feel like a criminal and ran up excessive fees. My experience with my IRS Revenue Agent was a lot more pleasant, While I think it is a good thing to get legal advice on your options and about the strength of your opt out arguments, ultimately, I did not see the need for extensive legal advice. Run from any lawyer who tells you that a Voluntary Disclosure Program is your only option, and that there is no negotiation.
The IRS needs to develop a better way to assist US person foreign residents to come into compliance. While the Streamlined Program is a start, the rules are confusing and unclear to both those inside and outside the IRS. The Streamlined Program needs to go further! Its rules need clarification and communication. The Streamlined Program could also be extended to immigrants to the US.
I have signed documents allowing my data to be used by the Taxpayer Advocate in the next Taxpayer Advocate Annual Report to Congress (ARC). Hopefully, this data, along with that of others can motivate the IRS and/or Congress to take action to fix the problems created by the OVDI/P approach.
I am grateful for the comments on this blog from other OVD victims and people who wanted to help. You saved me. Thank you and it is now time to move on.
BTW, I am going to ask Petros to add your story to the side bar under “FBAR: When government turns predator.” It should not get lost as a resource for new victims…
@Just Me,
Yes, all probably a waste of time, but I am slowly composing a letter re RBT support to my congressional representative who sits on the House W&M Committee–and will be citing @Not That Lisa’s story on the Townsend blog and that of Patricia d’Addario (already submitted to committee) as my two representative examples of harm.
@Not That Lisa, thank you for detailing your experience.
@IRSCompliantForever, could you please also cite “The perils of overseas tax disclosure: An immigrant’s story”, by Amy Feldman?
Here are the links
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/01/28/the-perils-of-overseas-tax-disclosure-an-immigrants-story/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/28/us-column-feldman-immigrants-idUSBRE90R10Q20130128
Thanks!
@Not that Lisa!
Wow, I can really relate to what you wrote, and even feel bad, because I have a lot of the same feelings, yet haven’t gone through the same ordeal. All I had are life altering threats of huge fines and even deportation.
I don’t know if I am still the same person. My wife told me she doesn’t like the person I’ve become. Now, I feel really angry against the country that gave me a job and family. If it wasn’t for keeping the family together, I would have packed and gone home. I have regrets to have come here in the first place.
I have a very hard time living in the moment, without constantly thinking about the IRS, and what could happen if I am audited. That might get better after the SOL have expired.
I also gained some weight. For quite some time, I didn’t want to do anything in the weekend and would just lay in bed doing nothing. It made me feel bad to see me like that, but I wasn’t in the mood of doing anything. Taxes and FATCA is all I can think about, and I worry that some day, I’ll be audited and kicked out of the country for moral turpitude. I am paranoid, my wife tells me. She might be right.
The only thing that kept me going is my work. Pretty sad, uh.
I can also say that my life will never go back to what is was before becoming FBAR aware as I stress a lot more around tax time than I did before I knew all the punitive rules associated with foreign accounts.
I am also questioning the decision to become American. That would get rid of the risk of maybe being separated from my family, but introduce another one, which is what you guys experience outside of the US if one day, I were to move out of here.
@Chris, you have a good suggestion by including in my letter the story by Amy Feldman. There are also so many other examples of harms that I could include but cannot.
But I want to keep the letter very short as congresspersons have little time, if any, to skim through a topic that will be of only secondary importance, and it was the d’Addario and @Not That Lisa “submissions” that happened to affect me so much during the readings that it was difficult to read further.
You just wanted it to stop.
@IRSCompliantForever, I understand. The point of my comments was to include the immigrants’ perspective, who are affected in the same way. They might be seen as real tax evaders, living in the country; tax issues can affect their immigration status, and they can’t vote or feel like they don’t have any other choice than listening to their immigration / tax lawyers that funnels them in OVDI.
@All
Interesting comments on the weight gain. I was at a seminar Monday on “overeating and weight loss”. The presenter made it a point a couple of times of saying that high stress tends to promote overeating. That would explain why the average weight of U.S. citizens abroad is increasing. Don’t know why Homelanders seem to be so heavy. They don’t have to worry about FBARs.
At this point in history, there are few things more stressful than being a U.S. citizen abroad or Green Card Holder in the U.S.
Thing is though, we must put this horrible experience behind us!
@Not that Lisa, Just Me
It’s difficult to turn your back on persecution, especially when it has knocked at your own door.
Thank you Not that Lisa! for describing to us how you have fared through this entire ordeal. You have a gift with words.
I ask because I’ve been asking myself the same thing lately, kind of a mental check up. Why is my husband who should be more angry about this than I am less obsessed and upset about it than I am? He after all was born in Canada and never lived even a day in the US, except of course to spend his Canadian earned tourist dollars there. To me it feels like I’ve been sucker punched by someone who was supposed to be looking after my best interests, a betrayal. I believe that this situation will remain a festering wound for many until the USG makes very significant moves to reverse the harm it has done to its own citizens living abroad. If the USG cannot apologize with words it can at least attempt to do so with its actions. An effective apology includes taking full responsibility for the wrong it’s done whether those wrongs were intentional or though ignorance, to make restitution by instituting measures that include showing an equal appreciation for its citizens regardless of where that citizen lives, and to repent its past behaviour by at the very least legislating RBT.
@Bubblebustin
You are more affected by this than your husband for exactly the reason you give:
He never lived in the U.S. You on the other land lived there for some very impressionable years where you were taught that the U.S. was a free and just society. Hence, your (justifiable) sense of betrayal. He, on the other hand, grew up hearing a description that was closer to the truth.
U.S. citizens abroad have been betrayed. But, so have the Homelanders. They just don’t know it. The acute sense of betrayal that you feel is the result of knowing the truth about the U.S. in general and the Obama administration in particular.
This situation will always be a “festering wound” for U.S. citizens abroad. The most an apology would do is (possibly) reverse the pace of renunciations.
I have always felt that when the final chapter of the U.S. is written the historians will look to the treatment of U.S. citizens abroad as a contributing factor in the inevitable end.
Well, the comments I’ve received by Not that Lisa, and also Shadow Raider, have helped to lighten the load. Both have talked about limitations upon FBAR penalties.
“Doing the numbers” seems to come up with a lot lower scare level, and I should be able to take that and move on to a better personal attitude.
I saw a presentation today, that if one looks in a mirror and smiles at oneself, a person will feel a lot better no matter what the situation. It is backed up by statistical research.
Doesn’t repeal any laws, but it sure as heck makes each day better.
@USCitizenAbroad
I believe you are correct. If I was to speculate, I would say that his attitude is “here’s your pound of flesh, now leave us alone”. I know that anger is not too far below the surface, however.
USCitizenAbroad,
I think it is what you expressed in My wound is geography, that bubblebustin feels, Not that Lisa feels, as well as what so many others who grew up in the USA feel = betrayal from those “entitled USA” ideals we were taught, obediently pledged allegiance to every school day.
… the reason many of us are no longer or soon to be U.S. persons no more. An apology will not restore lost faith in what we were taught the USA stood for. It is even more than why I came to Canada and chose the place to raise my family and be part of society by becoming a citizen so many years ago. It is the total realization of betrayal and that we are called tax cheats and traitors in our punishment for leaving the homeland.
After reading Not That Lisa’s pages and pages describing her 30 month journey into compliance and the toll it extracted from her financially, socially, mentally and physically, all I could think of was how much grit and writing talent it takes to produce a “success” story. Many others simply don’t have the right stuff to do as she did and we can only hope that her huge effort will somehow pave the way for those who may be forced to go down that same path. Perhaps a shortcut will be created. Thank you, Not That Lisa, for sharing your experience and what you learned along the way. It’s just so wrong that a dys-system exists that puts people through such distress.
An anonymous OVDI participant, who wishes not to report details for personal reasons, does report a cryptic success. This represents another Opt Out with no penalty at all.
This person was an immigrant to America. There are factors relating to how the FBAR mistakes were made that they would rather not discuss as it involves 3rd parties.
ij, can you post the link?
@Chris,
There is no such a link. The information was from private email exchange with this OVDI participant
I also found this blog that describes its owner’s OVDI experience.
http://desiways.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/my-fbar-ovdi-progress/
This immigrant started the process in February 2012 and as of this month (June 2013) still hasn’t been assigned an agent.
Many comments on this site seem to be from minnow Indian immigrants either having entered the program or planning to do it.
@Chris.
Mine is different one. Sorry that I can not go further, it was assigned to agent a few months ago — and it came with 906 already but the person decided to opt-out, and it took 3-4 months to have it finally resolved.
It doesn’t end. There is another glitch in the system with respect to the payments of my refunds. If I had not been assigned a good agent, I might be having to hassle with the Service Center and collections. I called my agent and even though the case is closed, the agent took the time to figure out the error. It is not fixed yet, but it is being addressed.
Tax penalties that should have been abated were not. It is unclear if it is a systemic error, or just a one off because of my particular situation. When my agent was explaining it, it made me realize how complex the programming of the IRS systems needs to be in order to capture all the various programs the IRS runs (like OVDI and the Streamlined Programs) and their associated conditions. The latest problem confirms again that the IRS did not use due diligence on its support systems for OVDI and the Streamlined Program in its haste to get these programs running. It is not only me who suffers, but the agent has taken on extra work, although again I must commend my agent for going the extra mile. I think the agent wants to see me finish as badly as I want it to be over.
@Not that Lisa!
So sorry to hear you aren’t out of the woods yet 🙁
@bubblebustin – Thanks, but there is no real suffering. I was informed today that the proper changes have been made in the system. There are good people in the regular IRS who go out of their way to make sure processes work. It should be over in another month, which will mean that it will have taken 32 months to go through OVDI and deal with everything that has tax consequences.
The only thing I have learned from this last hiccup is to check – before one opts out into the Streamlined Program- what the agent thinks the policy is for tax penalty abatement for taxes owed in years prior to 2009. There is a belief amongst some agents that the tax penalties are only abated from 2009 onwards. This should be clarified with the agent before opting out so situations like mine can be avoided. Have the agent check with the OVDI and Streamlined advisors. All my tax penalties for years prior to 2009 were ultimately abated.
Also, check with your agent before the agent closes the case how much you will be getting back. The amount I got back was at least $1000 less than what the agent told me I would be receiving. The documents I got from the IRS center that does the payments made perfect sense for the lesser amount. Had the agent and I not discussed the amount previously, I might have just accepted the wrong amount.
@Not that lisa…
It took me about 6 months to get the proper refunds credited with interest due, etc. The first times I called the computers were not showing correctly. The advice was to call back later, and maybe it would show correct.
Finally one day, all the checks arrived with separate notices, and frankly I could not correlate any of it with what I and the examiner had determined to be. I added it all up, and it was in the ball park of what I was expecting, maybe slightly more, but decided not to do anything more on it, and call it closed.
Their systems are complex beyond belief, and one group of agents working inside collections, doesn’t understand what is happening elsewhere in the OVDIs.
@ij
Thanks for the information on the immigrant Opt Out. That is another black hole area with even less light escaping than you get on American’s abroad. I understand the need to maintain the confidentially of someone you have helped, and just knowing that “opting out” there does have good results, is knowledge that might help. Thanks you for posting it.
The question becomes of course, what were the factors that allowed this person to make a tough decision, and not just roll over like I would imagine a lot of immigrants would do, especially those worried about green card status or citizenship applications. Guess we will never know, unless people are willing to share more details anonymously.
@Just Me, it seems that many immigrants, as you mention, just roll over and pay. At least from the comments on this blog.
http://desiways.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/my-fbar-ovdi-progress/
It would help if/when they start listening to Nina Olson’s recommendation. As RenouceUSCitizenship pointed out. The best outcome will be for the ones who wait till there are better options.
It also seems that those who have started filing correctly and for whom the tax statute of limitation have expired should be out of the wood. Even if these minnows are audited after that, I don’t see the IRS going after them for civil FBAR penalties for the open FBAR years, if they just provide the missing FBARs with a reasonable cause letter at the time of audit.