Update 3:
Those in or near London, England might be interested that a similar event to take place there on Sunday, July 28, 2013, is in the works. I will post the details as the become available.
UDPATE 2:
Saturday, June 15
Don Mills United Church – 126 O’Connor Dr., Toronto, Ontario M4K 2K7
Click here for directions (at the corner of Pape and O’Connor, see google maps). There is some street parking.
Doors will open at 9:45 a.m.
UPDATE 1:
- There is to be no taping/recording/videoing of ANY part of the day.
- The day will be extended to encourage more people to attend.
- Attendance is free.
The morning session will focus primarily on the emotional issues and the afternoon session on practical issues.
Session I: The Financial and Emotional Costs of U.S. Citizenship Abroad
- When: Saturday June 15, 2013 – 10:00 a.m. – 12:00 noon
- Where: Downtown Toronto – Near U of T – Final location posted on June 13
- Who: a Senior Licensed Psychologist
Description: Since 2011, the Obama administration has subjected millions of people Living outside the United States to a vicious attack. This includes Reaching into Canada. The IRS has literally threatened millions of innocent persons living outside the United States with fines exceeding their personal wealth–up to 380% of their financial assets. For many, this experience has taken a toll on their mental and physical health, and that has been even greater than the financial damage. A psychologist will address the emotional issues associated with the threats and demands that IRS is making. He will describe his own emotional experience and encourage others to share their own emotional reactions to these circumstances. Strategies will be discussed on how to cope with the stress caused by the IRS and the difficulties of living as a U.S. person abroad.
Session II: US Citizenship Abroad and Compliance Issues – Where we have come from. Where we are. Where we may be going
- When: 1:00 p.m. – 3:00 p.m.
- Who: An experienced Toronto lawyer
- What: Focus on more practical issues
Description: Beginning in the summer of 2011 the IRS aided by the media and cross-border professionals began a relentless attack on U.S. citizens in Canada. The spectre of FATCA has worsened the situation. The purpose of this session will be to review:
- Summer of 2011 – where we have come from
- 2011 to now – where we are now
- 2014 and onwards – where we may be going
What might this mean for U.S. citizenship in Canada? What are some possible responses? How can/should you respond to a difficult situation?
Please note that although this event will take place on June 15, it is NOT a session on how to file a U.S. tax return. The discussion will however include relevant U.S. tax issues and reporting/information returns.
You may feel you need help because:
- You are or have been threatened by the imposition of life-altering fines for failing to file information returns you had no reason to know existed;
- You feel victimized by the Canadian and other non-U.S. media, who have constantly referred to you as a “tax cheat” and advised you to “come clean”;
- You feel “taken advantage of” by the so-called “cross-border professionals”.
You just want to be compliant with the law, but you receive conflicting advice, and nobody seems to be able to tell you how to do it, yet they are asking for “huge” fees; - You feel completely misunderstood by the non-U.S. citizens in your life. They can’t understand the feelings of fear, betrayal and injustice that you feel. In some cases, this experience has put your marriage at risk;
- Your health has been dramatically affected by all of this. You can’t sleep. You worry. You have gained or lost weight. You are no longer the happy person you were. You feel that your life has been stolen from you.
First published May 27, 2013
@Kalc, @Tortured
I think that there are other account applications at TD Waterhouse that you won’t see online that inquire about US citizenship. I am pretty sure I filled one out a few months ago. If I recall correctly (unfortunately I dont have a copy of the paperwork), it was more of a check-box type thing where you check off your citizenship, and both Canadian and USA were check-boxes; the financial advisor filled it out , and checked Canadian, but left USA unchecked. I didn’t argue.
I believe you are correct about the ID required in that no proof of citizenship or birthplace is requested.
Of course, all this will likely change very soon, so Tortured will have to decide whether or not to join the swelling ranks of the willfully hidden something which unfortunately won’t be possible if he/she continues to bank at RBC.
WhiteKat I agree completely.
Just FYI: German banks have been asking USPs to fill out W9s for years, long before FATCA was ever conceived.
@notamused, same with Swiss accounts which traded US stocks.
How many of us hold, as in Canada RRSPs and other registered savings accounts / pension accounts, without having submitted a US Social Security Number since we are US Persons? I know my RRSP and other accounts must have been not kosher for me to open if the fact that RBC Royal Bank must have a SSN for “Tortured,” who does not have a US SSN — she was born in Canada — and who would think that a Canadian Social Insurance Number was not sufficient?
KalC
Sorry,
Not understanding what you mean “room for 1…… You still have to list your citizenship, correct.
I shall take a look at it later
By the way, does anyone know if there are fianancial institutions out there who will not be a part of this reporting to the IRS
I also would appreciate info on renouncing….. To become tax compliant for 5 yrs do we still have to fill out those FBAR…. My understanding is it will cost a small fortune just getting those done by an accounting firm.
I noted someone asked if I am a Canadian citizen….. Yes I was born a Canadian but unfortunately in the US where I lived till The age of 2
To answer another question I do not have any US investments
& thirdly I am not sure if I would have the same issue trying to open a regular bank account …. Cannot open a joint investment. I believe when I was first told my RRSP account was frozen …. The senior manager ” jumped the gun”
Someone mentioned this had nothing to do with FATCA but if Our Government signs the IGA, does that not mean it, the Government will collect the info from the banks & submit to the US. Geez, I cannot believe that this could happen!
I would like to add that my husband are already retired & living off our life savings ( the very savings) the US wants to steal. We are not at liberty to find jobs as he has MS. Makes everything more of a nightmare.
Thank you all for your responses & support. Helps slow my heartbeat foam a little!!!!!
Arrow:
I will be calling you
@Tortured
I have just read your postings and want to mention that I will be at the program on the 15th. I am just finishing the final forms to submit and will be done soon. I renounced Jan 2012 and like you, my husband and I are retired. I had to take steps to protect our retirement, just as you describe. I would be happy to pass on anything/everything in the event it is helpful. If you like, you can email me at nobledreamer16 at gmail.com or if you just want to talk, would be happy to email you my number, am in toronto.
@Tortured,
Re: “Does anyone know if there are fianancial institutions out there who will not be a part of this reporting to the IRS”
My understanding is that credit unions are less submissive stance regarding FATCA and an IGA than are the big banks. They are not excluded from FATCA because they are considered a ‘financial institution’ from IRS definition, but I believe they are subject to less stringent rules. For example, credit unions with less than 175 million worth of investments are ‘deemed compliant’. Also, I believe (but not positive) that the time frame for implementing FATCA is different for credit unions than for banks (i.e. they have longer to get on board). There are a few posts here at IBS that discuss credit unions that you want to search for (sorry I don’t know the links off hand). Also see this from credit union central of Canada: http://www.cucentral.ca/Connections/FATCA%20Final.pdf.
Personally, a few months ago I opened a savings, chequing and RRSP account with a local credit union in anticipation of the day when my bank starts asking questions. I think it is good to establish a relationship now with multiple financial institutions (ideally credit unions) BEFORE FATCA is further implemented. That way, you have more than one recourse if a particular bank gives you a hard time. The credit union was happy to have the new business, and did not ask ANY questions about citizenship at all, unlike TD Waterhouse. I only had to present a drivers license and a major credit card to open all 3 accounts. Another good reason to deal with multiple institutions is that it gives you the ability to keep your account balances at one particular institution under the 50K aggregate reporting threshhold.
Ultimately you will need to decide how you are going to handle your situation. My best advice to you is to TAKE YOUR TIME before you do anything you may regret later. Once you apply for that SSN it is game over – you are in the system, and you will stay in the system until you jump through all the requisite hoops with their associated price tags. Like myself, you left as a baby. You have done nothing wrong. You owe the USA NOTHING. There is a good chance that this whole mess will be cleared up without IRS ever catching wind of your existence. PROCEED WITH CAUTION.
@Tortured
Look forward to hearing from you. We can have a good discussion; and go from there. Send me an email and I’ll give you some numbers.
DW
@Tortured…
If you want an example of all the exempt or deemed compliant institutions (loopholes) you need to only look at the Annex II for various signed or initialed IGAs…
For instance, here is the Germany list… Search for Annex II
http://bit.ly/1beU5d6
You can assume that Compliance attorneys are going through these lists closely looking for the way to keep clients clear of FATCA discovery.
or here is the UK IGA. Again, look for Annex II
http://1.usa.gov/WBIAcr
Dear Friends.
Thank you all for your responses, for the info offered and the encouragement.
Nobledreamer….I will be at the meeting but will e-mail you before that time. I feel very strongly about renouncing as I do not need to be a citizen of another country and having to incur costs to file every year does not appeal to me.
WhiteKat…Thank you for those suggestions….makes sense to me.
Arrow…you should have my e-mail by now.
Just Me…Thank you ….I will look into those.
Just read that Jim Flaherty may be leaving….that left a queasy feeling in my stomach. Still we must go forward and fight back. We owe it to Mr. Brock!!! Goodnight all
@Tortured,
Yes we owe it to Mr. Brock!! You have friends here at IBS. Sleep well.
Tortured. What I meant by only room for 1was-once you put down Canadian for citizenship there wasn’t room to put anything else. Do not put down a second citizenship.
Remember, and this is very important, RRSPs will be exempt from FATCA reporting. Equally important, unless you have informed your bank that you are American, accounts under 1million$ will not be reported.
So the solution is clear.
There is no need to renounce. If you choose to do so anyway, there is no Canadian law that says you have to file US returns or FBARS.
Ask yourself-what exactly can they do to you?
@Tortured
It may ease your mind to know that only the Government of Canada can collect taxes in Canada. And under Canada-US Tax Treaty, Canada will not assist in collection of US tax claims from a Canadian citizen, unless the tax claim preceded their date of Canadian citizenship.
Here’s a candid opinion by two Canadian tax lawyers:
“In summary, a Canadian citizen need have little concern about the collection of US tax, interest, and ancillary penalties. However, a US taxpayer who is a Canadian resident and not a Canadian citizen and who owes US tax, interest,and penalties may face collection thereof by the CRA pursuant to treaty article XXVI A. It is extremely unlikely that Canadian citizens or residents will have to face collection of FBAR penalties, except in the very unlikely event that those penalties may be characterized as registrable civil judgments.”
That’s the final summary paragraph from article.“US Tax Collection in Canada”, published in “Canadian Tax Highlights” Vol. 19, Number 9, Sept 2011-10-14 Canadian Tax Foundation. The authors are: Erin L. Frew and S. Natasha of Reid Thorsteinssons LLP, Vancouver (tax law firm)
Article documents difficulty of enforcing US tax claims in Canada:
– Canadian courts will not enforce US tax revenue claims in Canada
– Under the Canada-US tax treaty, Canada Revenue Agency cannot collect US taxes from Canadian citizens, unless the tax claim preceded their date of citizenship.
“Canadian Tax Highlights” is available by subscription only, however you can read a pdf that someone scanned and posted:
http://people.stu.ca/~hunt/ustaxinfo/ctf.pdf
This was confirmed in a statement by Canada Revenue to Vancouver Sun reporter Don Cayo (Cayo has provided incisive coverage of this issue and the CRA statement was a real scoop):
http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2011/08/24/verbatim-what-canada-says-about-collecting-irs-non-filing-penalties/
Hello Petros and facilitators of the June 15th ‘Traumatized by the IRS and US reaching into Canada’ seminar.
Hope there is a lot of interest in this wonderful (and free) opportunity that you in Toronto are so privileged to have come your way!
When will further information be posted for location, etc. so people can really plan their day for it?
How I wish I could be there. Perhaps I could pass on a little of what I’ve learned along the way, be some kind of support for someone new to this now that I’m at the end of this major life distraction for myself, along with my husband and my adult daughter. (Alas, not my son, but I’m clear in mind, for now, what my course of action will be there as well.) The three of us will sign relevant IRS returns and supplemental forms and 8854 tomorrow. Wednesday in Calgary should be brighter sunshine in many ways (it has been a rainy time for awhile).
Congratulations Calgary411, husband and daughter. I hope that you can finally find peace. Let the sun shine!
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@bubblebustin,
Thanks for your congratulations!!!
In an email from my daughter this morning and I know ‘how she was typing.’
quote:
I have been having nightmares about different scenarios of this whole 1040, 8854 bulls***. I thought I might check my astrology this morning to help me feel better. Nope.
…alright, I know I have to get this sh** done and pay my penalties for being an unfortunate citizen of the ‘land of the free’ – if only it were free!!
…sorry, I’m not sure I can get over being repulsed – this is so completely unfair!
…F*** OFF. I have ZERO love in my heart for the IRS or for the Excited States of America. period.
unquote
I just talked to her on the phone and she says she does know how LUCKY she is to have been born in (and now returned to) Canada and so many other blessings she has in her life. Hopefully the sun will soon shine on her and she can get on with her life.
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@Calgary411
Congratulations on such a big and important day in your life!!! I am soooooo happy for you!! U.S. citizenship is like owning a boat – meaning:
The two best days of ownership are the days that you buy it and day you get rid of it!
Hope you hang around to help those who are still enslaved.
Thanks, USCitizenAbroad.
Yep, I will be hanging around. It has become a bit of an obsession to try to help out in the small ways I can. Thanks for all you’ve given to me to help me through this. The support and education from you and others is significant in my getting through this.
@USCitizenshipAbroad
I like your parallel between US citizenship and boat ownership. How else is US citizenship like a boat? BOAT: Bring On Another Thousand. Get me off of it!
@Wondering,
Just noted your comment and all the info you provided me……Thank you so much
@Calgary ….Congradulations and am happy to hear you are “staying on”
bubblebustin, !!!!!!!!!
Tortured: thanks. You’ve gotten good advice from Petros!! and others.
I will be there in spirit – as sadly I cannot attend in person.