Update 3:
Those in or near London, England might be interested that a similar event to take place there on Sunday, July 28, 2013, is in the works. I will post the details as the become available.
UDPATE 2:
Saturday, June 15
Don Mills United Church – 126 O’Connor Dr., Toronto, Ontario M4K 2K7
Click here for directions (at the corner of Pape and O’Connor, see google maps). There is some street parking.
Doors will open at 9:45 a.m.
UPDATE 1:
- There is to be no taping/recording/videoing of ANY part of the day.
- The day will be extended to encourage more people to attend.
- Attendance is free.
The morning session will focus primarily on the emotional issues and the afternoon session on practical issues.
Session I: The Financial and Emotional Costs of U.S. Citizenship Abroad
- When: Saturday June 15, 2013 – 10:00 a.m. – 12:00 noon
- Where: Downtown Toronto – Near U of T – Final location posted on June 13
- Who: a Senior Licensed Psychologist
Description: Since 2011, the Obama administration has subjected millions of people Living outside the United States to a vicious attack. This includes Reaching into Canada. The IRS has literally threatened millions of innocent persons living outside the United States with fines exceeding their personal wealth–up to 380% of their financial assets. For many, this experience has taken a toll on their mental and physical health, and that has been even greater than the financial damage. A psychologist will address the emotional issues associated with the threats and demands that IRS is making. He will describe his own emotional experience and encourage others to share their own emotional reactions to these circumstances. Strategies will be discussed on how to cope with the stress caused by the IRS and the difficulties of living as a U.S. person abroad.
Session II: US Citizenship Abroad and Compliance Issues – Where we have come from. Where we are. Where we may be going
- When: 1:00 p.m. – 3:00 p.m.
- Who: An experienced Toronto lawyer
- What: Focus on more practical issues
Description: Beginning in the summer of 2011 the IRS aided by the media and cross-border professionals began a relentless attack on U.S. citizens in Canada. The spectre of FATCA has worsened the situation. The purpose of this session will be to review:
- Summer of 2011 – where we have come from
- 2011 to now – where we are now
- 2014 and onwards – where we may be going
What might this mean for U.S. citizenship in Canada? What are some possible responses? How can/should you respond to a difficult situation?
Please note that although this event will take place on June 15, it is NOT a session on how to file a U.S. tax return. The discussion will however include relevant U.S. tax issues and reporting/information returns.
You may feel you need help because:
- You are or have been threatened by the imposition of life-altering fines for failing to file information returns you had no reason to know existed;
- You feel victimized by the Canadian and other non-U.S. media, who have constantly referred to you as a “tax cheat” and advised you to “come clean”;
- You feel “taken advantage of” by the so-called “cross-border professionals”.
You just want to be compliant with the law, but you receive conflicting advice, and nobody seems to be able to tell you how to do it, yet they are asking for “huge” fees; - You feel completely misunderstood by the non-U.S. citizens in your life. They can’t understand the feelings of fear, betrayal and injustice that you feel. In some cases, this experience has put your marriage at risk;
- Your health has been dramatically affected by all of this. You can’t sleep. You worry. You have gained or lost weight. You are no longer the happy person you were. You feel that your life has been stolen from you.
First published May 27, 2013
@bubblebustin,
Will they be taking attendance and contact information? Why do we have to keep fearing the consequences of these kinds of supposedly informative seminars for us?
I will give some questions a little later (when I have more time). Who is Trowbridge Professional Corp. and why should any US Person Abroad attendee have to question their real purpose?
@Calgary411
Thank you.
Trowbridge is a “Professional Corportation is an accounting firm that specializes in tax services” that apparently doesn’t know how to spell.
LOL! I think I’ll show up with a bunch of leaflets about how the US is considering moving to a residency based system and how USP’s can contact the USG in support of that.
I’m try to put my finger on the reactions I got from my US tax accountant and lawyer when I told them about the prospect of this happening. It was almost denial or disbelief, probably like most of us felt as the Berlin wall fell, like it really couldn’t be happening because it had been there so long and had effected so many in such a significant way. Makes you realize the true fragility of these constructs of ours, and how victory can be just around the corner!
Gandhi: “Remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible. But in the end, they always fall. Always.”
Response to the bank issue. Hope I am able to address all of your questions here & if not let me know.
On Oct. 18th, 2012 I applied at the Royal Bank to become a signature to my husbands direct investing account. The question of my birth place was on the application form and as always I advised I was born in the U.S. At the time I was unaware of FATCA.
During that meeting, via phone, I was advised by RBS Direct Investing that my RRSP account was frozen and I could no longer trade within that account. The individual I dealt with at RBC Direct Investing was a Senior Manager. My account would be frozen until such time as I completed a “w-9” form which required a SSN which I have never had. I have made appts. twice at Toronto Consulate to apply for SSN but have cancelled as I am not sure it is the right move for me to make at this time.
I did write letters to the PM, Jim Flaherty and my MP….in fact, just mailed them yesterday regarding my situation and I did relay the issue with the Royal Bank.
My husband and I will be attending the meeting on June 15th ….bit of a distance for us but we will be there.
To Calgary and Pacifica777, I will contact you soon.
Thank you for all your imput.
Testing as I just posted a comment regarding my issue with the bank and do not see it anywhere
Calgary and Pacifica777, I will contact you shortly.
Would there be any reason why my other comment did not “post”
Sorry about the 2nd comment as I have now found the first one I posted.
Have to be patient with me as I am new to this ISB but will figure it all out!
Pingback: Possible indication of #FATCA causing banking problems for #americansabroad in Canada | U.S. Persons Abroad - Members of a Unique Tax, Form and Penalty Club
@Tortured
Thanks for that info — I would like to talk to you too. But fair warning, my goal is to write a story about what happened to you (in the broader context of this whole FATCA/IGA mess). I’m surprised that RBC 1) asked you for a birthplace (don’t think they can do that) and then 2) froze your RRSP until you filled out a W-9. You are making the right decision NOT to get the SSN at this time — you need to clarify your status before you do anything with the US consulate — a lot of people, many on this site, have made irrevocable mistakes like getting US passports, and applying for SSNs — only to discover that they have now cemented their status as Americans — which I don’t think you want to do.
Regarding story — let’s talk about that — no need to be concerned – if you’renot comfortable with going public I don’t bite and I keep my word.
my email: don_whiteley@telus.net.
We have your comment regarding the bank, which Arrow has now also replied to you. I am away from my computer for awhile as I have an outside obligation. We look forward to discussing all of this with you — and we do thank you so much for bringing to our attention what you have regarding your bank. Hang in there with us. In the meantime, don’t do anything to register / get that SSN until the issue discussed here is definitively answered. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/05/31/we-want-to-know-once-and-for-all-for-sure-is-it-true-legal-policy-a-choice-the-us-cannot-force-anyone-who-is-born-outside-of-the-us-to-acquire-us-citizenship/comment-page-3/#comment-374234 We’re here for you as much as we can be for support and information. (In the meantime, start reading as much as you can here — we’re here to answer your questions if we’re able to / point you to good information on which to base your opinions!)
@bubblebustin
Is the BMO-Nesbitt Burns seminar to be held in Vancouver, and is it open to the general public? If so, would you be able to provide details?
Thanks
@Tortured…
We can all vouch for Arrow, so please do take him up on a call and conversation. He is a professional.
@Tortured
What happens sometimes, depending on where your comment is in the string of comments, after you enter it, it is not immediately viewable to you on the same screen as when you entered it. It has moved to a next page. So, you just need to advance to “Newer Comments” right above the “Leave a Reply” and scroll down, and there you will find it. Just a quirk of Word Press.
@Tortured…
Or alternately, you can click on the comment count right under the title heading… Last I looked, it was like this… You would click on the ’62 comments’, and it would take you to the end page of comments, which would include yours.
Posted on May 27, 2013 by Petros Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad 62 Comments
@Tortured
Your story is shocking. What form were you presented with?
Just reviewed the RBC Directing Investing Trading Authorization Form available on their web site (labeled E-FORM 2745 02/2013 / RBC Direct Investing Inc. / TRADING AUTHORIZATION) and it does not have a field for “place of birth”. Neither does the Supplemental Trading Authority (E-FORM 4578 02/2013 RBC Direct Investing Inc.)
If the firm asked you about your nationality, then froze your account because of your national origin, your Charter Rights may have violated. Suggest you send a brief note describing what happened to noted constitutional lawyer Joseph Arvay at Arvay Finlay, in Vancouver BC. Others have already contacted him on this issue and his advice was to wait for a tort (harm or damage).
http://www.arvayfinlay.com/lawyers/j-arvay.htm
@Tortured
The advice that Don Whitely gave you about NOT getting that SSN is very good advice. The history of U.S. citizenship-based taxation is littered with the corpses of those who presumed they were U.S. persons when in fact they were not.
See:
http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/you-may-not-be-u-s-citizen/
I just looked at the online form to open a new RRSP account with RBC Direct. It doesn’t ask where you were born. Instead it asks ‘Are you a US Cit. [yes] or [no]’ It then says if you are a usc please supply SSN.
@Tortured et al.,
Out of curiosity, I just called my bank, CIBC, at which I have two RRSP accounts, and informed the bank that I am a US person.
CIBC told me that if I would open a new RRSP account now, I would be required as a US person to provide a US social security number, but not a W-9 form. The RRSP account was opened years before and at a time when US persons were much less toxic. There is no indication that CIBC is now coming after me for my SSN or aims to freeze my accounts.
I did have a CIBC investors account but gave that up because of FBAR and other IRS reporting requirements.
In hindsight I am not absolutely sure how it was worded as we did not bring home the form……we left there in shock! Could have been that it was the question of “was I a US person/citizen” Nonetheless, as soon as they were aware I was a US person I was advised that I had to fill out the W9 form but needed a SSN to do so (sorry for repeating myself again). Head office was called and they confirmed I could not open the account and advised my RRSP account was frozen! (It had been opened for years) and I am absolutely sure I had answered a question a few years back indicating I was born in the US.
The Client Profile Form states that if you are a US citizen you are required to complete a W9 form, regardless of intent. After several phone calls to RBC Direct Investment I was able to trade but am still not sure if I can withdraw funds.
Also, whenever we go into our investment accounts we get the Important Notice that “one or more of our accounts are currently restricted. The account number, for the account we were not able to open, was assigned and shows up on our info….of course there is nothing happening in it.
Fact remains I am unable to open an account in a Canadian bank and I AM a Canadian citizen!
Arrow,
Unfortunately I did get a U.S. passport some years ago ( and renewed) as it was the quickest (or as I thought) way to obtain one as I was going on a cruise and found out I needed one.
I will think about getting in contact with you……I am a little fearful as I feel I have no control over what the banks can/will do. However, I do feel certain that everything I post here is confidential within the ISB.
@Tortured,
Of course you are fearful!. You are a born Canadian CITIZEN [who had no say on who you were born to or where you were born – but did that naive deed of obtaining a US passport! with no knowledge (full disclosure) of what that entailed for you. You are not likely to be pulling up stakes to move to the US, especially now]. That you have a requirement to register with the US to provide a SSN for a Canadian bank investment account (simple chequing and savings accounts too?) is, I think, very discriminatory compared to that of every other born Canadian (without a US Person connection). You will then have to renounce your US citizenship so you can have anything like a normal life and be able to save for retirement and bank like any other Canadian in the country in which you were born, including using registered Canadian accounts as we’re all encouraged to responsibly save in. The advice that some US consulates are now handing out regarding not having to become a US citizen if not registered with the US as a birth abroad may have been the start of good advice for you when you made your US passport application. As I see it, this just isn’t a win for any US Person in Canada (or any other country) who does not plan to eventually move to the US for the rest of their lives. There are many, many of us (and especially Accidental Americans) who will have to make unbelievable moves in their lives in order to live like any other Canadian or Swiss or German or Finn, etc.
(And, then, there are those like my son – completely entrapped into this absurdity with no way out of year-after-year compliance for not a penny owed to the US.)
Rhetorically, should the UK be able to force this same type of absurdity on anyone who left to move to the new land in North America to get away from tax tyranny (if they at some point see the $$$ possibilities for their coffers and change to citizenship-based taxation)?
Should we not be angry about being criminalized by the US – while the US is not getting at the real persons they were aiming for? I want the question answered for all these Accidental Americans, born abroad – if not registered by their parents as a birth abroad, are they automatically criminally branded US citizens or do they have a choice and can claim that citizenship as an adult if they deem that the correct decision for themselves?
… and then there are the Accidental Americans born in the US and there for a short time, never to return again.
… and then there are all the immigrants to the US who do not have full knowledge of the tax and reporting obligations they will face as they are not told about these when becoming permanent residents of the US, getting that green card for living in the land of opportunity.
…and then there are those unable to find work in the US who look for employment in other countries, many of whom will be labourers who do not have the luxury of the employee benefit of someone looking after all their US tax obligations as they work in a foreign country.
Yes, the whole world has gone mad!
@Tortured
@Calgary411
I don’t believe having RBC Direct Investing freeze your account has anything to do with FATCA!
I have had trading accounts at RBC Direct for years and from time to time I have been requested to complete a form – so has my wife who is not a US citizen. They need to know if you are a US citizen so they can do the withholding for US investments correctly.
If you don’t reply, they freeze your account until you do. My experience was that the freeze was for US trades – not Canadian ones. They now know you are a US Citizen and want you to fill in the form that says so. I can see that the lack of an SSN is a problem and not sure how you will resolve that issue. But, as these requests have been going on for years, I just don’t believe it is a FATCA issue.
@Myst,
Which means that if Tortured is planning to stay below the radar he/she should find a new financial institution, preferably a smallish credit union – soon.
@tdott
The seminar is taking place in Sechelt on June 17th. There is a contact name & # to RSVP, for you to ask whether they’re having one in the lower mainland also. If not, I can send you details on the one here if you would like to take the ferry up to the Sunshine Coast for the day.
Sue Lasby at 604-740-3368 or sue.lasby@nbpcd.com
@Tortured
Perhaps I should had a clarifying comment to my last post.
While I don’t think the request that RBC is making is directly linked to an early implementation of FATCA, it does have the same result – they now know you are a US citizen and could use that information in the future. At this time I doubt that they are passing or would pass this information to the IRS, unless the account is generating US income/dividends. Then you would receive a 1099div-int form to add to your US Tax return. But since they don’t have a SSN they can’t send anything to anyone.
I wish I could be of more help. So many of us have been down this road in the last two years. My response was to become compliant and then renounce. If you are not prepared to become compliant at this time, then WhiteKat’s suggestion may be a course of action worth considering.
@bubblebustin
Thanks for the info – was hoping it was in the Vancouver area on a weekend or in after work hours on a weekday. Don’t think I can justify taking time off work to go to Sechelt to listen to what they’re going to say.
Tortured. Take a look at the new account application at TD Canada Trust/TDWaterhouse. (Downloadable PDF). There is a line on the form for citizenship but only room for 1. Drivers licence or health insurance card is all the I.D. required..