Update 3:
Those in or near London, England might be interested that a similar event to take place there on Sunday, July 28, 2013, is in the works. I will post the details as the become available.
UDPATE 2:
Saturday, June 15
Don Mills United Church – 126 O’Connor Dr., Toronto, Ontario M4K 2K7
Click here for directions (at the corner of Pape and O’Connor, see google maps). There is some street parking.
Doors will open at 9:45 a.m.
UPDATE 1:
- There is to be no taping/recording/videoing of ANY part of the day.
- The day will be extended to encourage more people to attend.
- Attendance is free.
The morning session will focus primarily on the emotional issues and the afternoon session on practical issues.
Session I: The Financial and Emotional Costs of U.S. Citizenship Abroad
- When: Saturday June 15, 2013 – 10:00 a.m. – 12:00 noon
- Where: Downtown Toronto – Near U of T – Final location posted on June 13
- Who: a Senior Licensed Psychologist
Description: Since 2011, the Obama administration has subjected millions of people Living outside the United States to a vicious attack. This includes Reaching into Canada. The IRS has literally threatened millions of innocent persons living outside the United States with fines exceeding their personal wealth–up to 380% of their financial assets. For many, this experience has taken a toll on their mental and physical health, and that has been even greater than the financial damage. A psychologist will address the emotional issues associated with the threats and demands that IRS is making. He will describe his own emotional experience and encourage others to share their own emotional reactions to these circumstances. Strategies will be discussed on how to cope with the stress caused by the IRS and the difficulties of living as a U.S. person abroad.
Session II: US Citizenship Abroad and Compliance Issues – Where we have come from. Where we are. Where we may be going
- When: 1:00 p.m. – 3:00 p.m.
- Who: An experienced Toronto lawyer
- What: Focus on more practical issues
Description: Beginning in the summer of 2011 the IRS aided by the media and cross-border professionals began a relentless attack on U.S. citizens in Canada. The spectre of FATCA has worsened the situation. The purpose of this session will be to review:
- Summer of 2011 – where we have come from
- 2011 to now – where we are now
- 2014 and onwards – where we may be going
What might this mean for U.S. citizenship in Canada? What are some possible responses? How can/should you respond to a difficult situation?
Please note that although this event will take place on June 15, it is NOT a session on how to file a U.S. tax return. The discussion will however include relevant U.S. tax issues and reporting/information returns.
You may feel you need help because:
- You are or have been threatened by the imposition of life-altering fines for failing to file information returns you had no reason to know existed;
- You feel victimized by the Canadian and other non-U.S. media, who have constantly referred to you as a “tax cheat” and advised you to “come clean”;
- You feel “taken advantage of” by the so-called “cross-border professionals”.
You just want to be compliant with the law, but you receive conflicting advice, and nobody seems to be able to tell you how to do it, yet they are asking for “huge” fees; - You feel completely misunderstood by the non-U.S. citizens in your life. They can’t understand the feelings of fear, betrayal and injustice that you feel. In some cases, this experience has put your marriage at risk;
- Your health has been dramatically affected by all of this. You can’t sleep. You worry. You have gained or lost weight. You are no longer the happy person you were. You feel that your life has been stolen from you.
First published May 27, 2013
Petros, just a suggestion. Any time you use IRS in your headline, make it #IRS. That hashtag is being followed in Twitter by a lot of folks comment or look for information about IRS abuse, so it just helps it get more eyeballs. C-span was constantly mentioning it during the Shulman grilling on the 22nd. 🙂
On the other hand, I renounced in March, 2012, got my CLN in November, 2012 and filed my final 1040 and FBAR this April and I feel GREAT! Coincidentally, I received a refund cheque from the US Department of the Treasury TODAY. Okay, so it’s only $40.00…but it’s from THEM and it’s payable to ME! Yeeeeeha!
Hey Bruce…
Don’t spend it all in one place!
@Just Me This is definitely frame-worthy!
@Bruce…I want to be sure that refund check acts as a BIG stimulus to the Canadian economy!
Bruce,
Congradulations.
Had you been filing up the the time of your renouncing? Sounds like it went without a hitch.
I moved to Canada in 1965 and renounced my US citizenship in 1971 but didn’t realize I was still a US citizen until many years later. I only learned of this whole IRS mess in August, 2011 and until then had no idea I was required to file US income tax returns or travel on a US passport, which I have never had by the way. I quickly caught up on all my 1040s and FBARS, fearing those incredible penalties.
Then I began to educate myself and the more I learned the more pissed I became at the complete and utter unfairness or this entire mess. With FATCA coming, and with my attitude toward US tax policy becoming darker and darker, there was only one viable solution available to me. I’m square with the IRS and I am under the threshold for the exit tax so LET ME OUT!
Basically, I want no part of a government that would do this to their own citizens. And more may be on the way. Every other year it seems, there is a push to end the Foreign Income Exclusion. Who knows what else is in store for expats.
I simply cannot comprehend that the IRS feels entitled to money that my wife–a lifelong Canadian!–has earned and saved, simply because she married me who had the misfortune to be born in the US. They feel entitled to a portion of my estate, leaving less for my wife and kids. No thank you very much! I’m out.
Sorry for the rant.
I hope you don’t mind, but your last comment caught me as a succinct rant that others should hear! 🙂
https://twitter.com/FATCA_Fallout/status/339120701233565696
No problem. Glad to share.
Bruce
If you came in 1965 and renounced (or is it relinquished?) in 1971, why are you filing any tax returns at all and why did you think you were still a US citizen?
This seminar needs to be replicated in London- how can we make this happen??
@Arrow Sometime around 1992-93 I thought I would enquire, generally, into regaining my US citizenship. I was thinking that, who knows, maybe we would go down south when we got old. I checked with the consulate in Halifax and they asked if I had ever gotten a letter from the State Department. When I said I hadn’t, they told me I was still a US citizen. Apparently, swearing allegiance to Canada and renouncing all other citizenships was not enough; I had to formally notify the US officials but was not told and did not understand that at the time.
Fair enough. It seemed that dual citizenship gave me the best of both worlds. Then came 2008 and now that I could vote, I felt compelled to. My first time voting in a US election. Unbeknownst to me, voting was the death knell for relinquishment. During my interview, I was pissed at having to pay the $450 fee because I had renounced and was fully Canadian. I only voted because because they said I could. The anger passed quickly though and by morning I felt that was the best $450 I had ever spent!
@Bruce would you mind telling, if you filed 6 years, 5 years or 3 years (in stream lined) of taxes before renouncing. Is it quite or loud disclosure? Please ignore this request, if it is an uncomfortable to answer. I already filed five years and contemplating to relinquish. I lived most of my life in the country of my birth and have no plans to live in the USA.
I just finished reading this and I think I fit every point. I almost teared up reading it. Too bad I’m not even remotely close to Toronto. I wasn’t even born in the States. My parents moved as landed immigrants to Canada and lived here for 30+ years. I was born in Canada, I grew up here, went to University and now work here. I’ve never “lived” in the states. I got a passport when I was 18 because my Mom took me to the consulate and said I should get it. I’ve never used it since. That is my US connection. Now that I am a successful professional 10 years into my career I’m learning about the greediness and oppression of Uncle Sam. I want out. I think I am a “covered” (such a nice phrase) person for the exit tax. I haven’t done the math, but it could be well over $100k. This whole thing is absolutely ridiculous, unethical and immoral. If this is how the US treats its family and friends…I’m sick about it all. Thank you Isaac Brock for being a gathering place for people to share information. Even though I won’t make it to the seminar, just reading other peoples posts is a help.
Any way it can be recorded (even just audio)?
Thanks.
Thank you for posting this Petros. I wish they had one going on the west coast.
Another spin off industry for former and current USP’s abroad: PTSD therapy 🙁
Another great legacy for the Government of the United States of America. Wear it with pride, homelanders!
Oh, maybe you should send an invitation to Diane Francis just for fun.
I am under the impression that you have to “come clean” to renounce and after obtaining the CL….something or another you are still obliged to file for another five years. It is like being caught in an Eagles claws!
Also by renouncing you are flagging yourself, no?
I plan on attending the seminar in Toronto.
If I comply I will be committing fianancial suicide or I wait for them to come and shoot me.
Can’t believe this is happening and feel like I want to wake up from this nightmare…..it is so difficult to go forward with this hanging over ones head and the worse of it is it feels like there is no one out there on our side ….we are being thrown to the lions. If I had know about this years ago I would have taken care of it but by the time I found out (doing the math) I would end up on social assistance and they would probably tax that!
@Thinking, I have no idea whether it was quiet or loud. At the time, I called everywhere and no one could tell me how many years I had to file. Finally, I just said eight years of 1040s and FBARs is enough so I completed them and sent them in. I haven’t heard a word since.
Thanks @Petros. As @Somebody said, many people who won’t be able to make it to Toronto would benefit from viewing that. I know I would. It would really be great if this event could be taped and published, just like the Toronto FATCA forum.
Over and over and over again we see the need for what will be presented at this Toronto morning seminar.
We provide an ongoing online version here at Isaac Brock. It is not an understatement to say that I as well as so many others know what we’ve been able to learn and the support we receive here has been what has helped keep us sane.
Kudos to the presenters of this Toronto Saturday and free opportunity.
Will two hours be sufficient? Hope there is an chance for meeting and chatting with fellow US Persons going through this. Wouldn’t it be great to take your show on the road?
PS — Yes, definitely send a special invitation to Diane Francis so she can see what those outside her realm are dealing with.
Thanks for taking the initiative to do this — I hope your attendance is excellent! And, Petros, thanks for posting!
Yes, Bruce, you feel great now. I will soon feel great — I’m almost there. We’re at the end of our long journey of this US horror show. Big thanks for your rant!!
I can’t even imagine having to go through it all again even knowing what I now know and realizing the things I would do differently. This Toronto seminar is sure to give benefit to anyone earlier in their process. My best to all of you.
@Thinking Of Getout
There is a lot of discussion around the very questions you ask, on the Ask your questions about: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/expat_tax/Expat Taxes and FBAR and/or Ask your question about: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/Relinquishment and Renunciation of US citizenship
Reading back comments might be helpful to you. 🙂
@ Tortured,
No, tax compliance is not required (nor even asked about) in order to renounce. Dept of State doesn’t care – not in their mandate.
Once a person renounces, they have to file the 8854 exit tax return by June 15th of the following year. On that form, you certify that you have been in tax compliance for the previous 5 years. So you can renounce first and then backfile, as Bruce and others have done.
If you renounce this year, your 2013 return and 8854 will be your last IRS filings. No future filing required. Unless you have US source income, in which case you’d file a 1040-NR for US source income only, in future years – but that’s the same for any non-resident alien with US source income.
Dept of State is required to forward a copy of every approved CLN to IRS.
Is IRS going to harass you? I don’t think so (but I sure don’t know).
As a Canadian citizen, you are protected by the tax treaty (CRA will not assist IRS in collecting from a person who was a Canadian citizen at the time an IRS debt arose – that means IRS would have to go through the courts internationally, which is complicated and expensive for them, so not bloody likely).
Nevertheless, despite this, there are reasons why a person would prefer to wrap things up neatly with IRS. I think to file or not to file is a decision each person makes based on their own circumstances and comfort level.
Re financial suicide, are you worried about FBAR penalties? I wouldn’t lose sleep over that (easier said than done, I know). After following this matter for almost two years, it looks like IRS has not been assessing FBAR penalties against duals living overseas who backfiled FBARs, unless they have been within the OVDP/OVDI programmes, from what I’ve reading from posters at Brock and at Jack Townsend’s blog.
I’m not encouraging you to file or not to file, but hope I’m encouraging you to relax as you think things over. I know it’s scary because I’ve been in the situation too.
Do a lot of reading, of course, before you do anything. There’s a lot of information on this site. And ask questions, there’s a lot of people with personal experience posting here. It’s a frightening situation, an understatement, at the beginning, but we are managing to get out of it.
@pacifica777
Very nicely put… Well done.
@Somebody,
You are Canadian since you were born here and USC via parents. I think if you are dual from birth, you are exempt from the exit tax.
@Petros,
will plan on attending. If it is recorded, maybe some of it could be forwarded as a submission to potential committees/senators/house members demonstrating IRS abuse of US “Persons” abroad.