America is threatening the Swiss government to quickly agree to unspecified conditions if it doesn’t want for Swiss banks to be destroyed.
Die USA beharren darauf, ihr «Programm» zur Bereinigung von amerikanischem Schwarzgeld erst nach der Zustimmung durch die eidgenössischen Räte zu veröffentlichen.
http://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schweiz/so-will-widmer-schlumpf-den-us-steuerdeal-retten-126669898
Translation: USA is insisting on revealing the details of their “program” to clean American black money only after Swiss councils approve it.
Das Angebot gilt laut «NZZ am Sonntag» nur für 120 Tage. In dieser Zeit müssen die beteiligten Banken die Daten an die USA übermittelt und eine Busse ausgehandelt haben… Eine solche Busse könnte vor allem kleinere Banken an den Rand des Abgrunds und darüber hinaus bringen.
http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/schweiz/die-sommersession-als-sondersession-fuer-die-lex-usa-1.18091798
Translation: The deal, according to “NZZ on sunday”, is only valid for 120 days. In this time frame, all involved banks must deliver data to US and negotiate a settlement… Such fines could push small banks to the edge and beyond.
«Um es ungeschminkt zu sagen: Ohne Programm ist keine Bank vor der Willkür eines US-Justizbeamten geschützt.»
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/Powerplay-um-den-Bankendeal-mit-den-USA/story/26002848
Translation: To say it nicely, without the program, no bank will be protected from the high-handed action of US justice agents.
“Wir wollen mehr Fakten. Dabei lassen wir uns nicht drängen – weder vom Bundesrat noch von den Medien.”
http://www.finanzen.ch/Nachrichten/CH-Steuerstreit–Breite-Kritik-und-Suche-nach-Alternativen-Zus-434619
Translation: We want more facts and we won’t let ourselves be pushed around – not by the federal council and not by the media.
«Kein vernünftiger Politiker im Parlament kann einem Gesetz zustimmen, dessen rechtliche und materielle Auswirkungen unbekannt sind»
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/Dringlichkeit-fuer-Notrecht-ist-nicht-gegeben/story/13684308
Translation: No sane politician in the parliament can approve a law whose legal and material impact is unknown.
Die Schweizer Regierung möchte den seit Jahren schwelenden Steuerstreit mit den USA ein für alle Mal beenden… Die Amerikaner wollen erst nach einem Beschluss bekanntgeben, zu welchen Konditionen Vergleiche möglich sind, also wie teuer es für die Banken wird… Die USA seien zu keinen weiteren Zugeständnissen bereit… Laut Schweizerischer Nationalbank könnten hohe Geldbußen kleinere Institute sogar in den Ruin treiben
http://derstandard.at/1369362360940/US-Datenhunger-laesst-Schweizer-Bankmitarbeiter-zittern
Translation: The Swiss government has for years been wanting to end the swelling tax conflict for once and for all with the USA… Americans only want to reveal the conditions and how much it will cost banks following approval… The US is unwilling to compromise… According to the Swiss national bank, high fines could ruin small banks.
“Sicherheit hat man bei den Amerikanern nie. Wie diese mit anderen Ländern umgehen, das hat mit einem Rechtsstaat wenig zu tun.”
http://www.cash.ch/news/alle/nzzaschsteuerstreit_cvppraesident_darbellay_bezeichnet_loesung_als_einseitig-3070865-448
Translation: One can never trust Americans. Their treatment other nations has little to do with a constitional state.
Die Regierung in Bern solle sich lieber verstärkt an der Erarbeitung internationaler Standards im Rahmen der OECD beteiligen. Ein solcher Standard müsse die Steuerhinterziehungsfrage lösen, aber auch den Schutz der Privatsphäre berücksichtigen.
http://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/banken/josef-ackermann-schweiz-muss-die-us-forderungen-erfuellen/8290528.html
Translation: The government in Bern should rather be more involved in creating international standards in the framework of the OECD participants. Such a standard should solve the tax evasion question while also taking privacy protection into consideration.
Eine Ablehnung würde zu US-Klagen führen, was Ammann zufolge das Ende mehrerer Schweizer Banken bedeuten würde.
http://www.welt.de/newsticker/bloomberg/article116757815/Schweiz-stimmt-US-Gesetz-wohl-zu-es-droht-schlimmeres-Schicksal.html
Translation: A rejection would lead to US lawsuits which, according to Ammann, would mean the end of many Swiss banks.
I honestly don’t know what comment to make except the Swiss people should demand their government do the right thing.
In many respected Swiss newspapers, they are referring to the US demands on Switzerland as blackmail (in German ‘Erspressung’). It is being referred to as precedent-setting where US law is unilaterally implemented extraterritorially.
If the U.S. wants a financial trade war then the Swiss should give them one. The Swiss need to stand up for their sovereignty and so do the other nations of the world. This also holds true in the case of the Trans Pacific Partnership which is being negotiated between the U.S., Canada and the Asian countries. Where the U.S. is using trade negiotiations as a convient guise under which to export domestic manufacturing regulations.
It is a shameful situation when one government is allowed to bully over 190 other governments as if they are nothing more than a frightened herd of herbivores.
@recalcitrantexpat
A trade war has already begun. The Swiss embargo (rejection or closing) of financial accounts of anyone with a US connection is a trade sanction; embargo is a tactic in trade wars.
Quite the list of quotes. Enough to get your blood boiling. Obviously Swiss banks should just shut down, and you all should just open a Wells Fargo account, a US government approved TBTF bank..
So, when is Switzerland or any other EU country going to demand that Delaware’s Corporate law and non transparent beneficial ownership is smashed?
More here too:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/Media_grills_political_hot_potato_.html?cid=35989884
If they don’t get answers I think the whole thing will be sent back to the other house to deal with. Still waiting to hear if there’s likely to be any popular referendums on this subject too.
Does the US really expect any government to agree to something without knowing the details? Crazy. Just out and out bullies.
@Medea Fleecestealer, it will be interesting to see what becomes of this. I really can’t say. Normally, something like this should be flat out rejected. Yet, there are other matters which need to be taken into consideration. Could it be better to yield for now and to then slowly shift away from the US completely? it will take time for Switzerland to become completely independent from the US.
Unfortunately, you’d have to persuade the big two that it’s in their interest to stop dealing with the US and that’s not likely to happen I don’t think. Otherwise, the constant US fines will bring about their collapse. I believe it’s said that for every $1 that UBS earn in Switzerland they make $2 outside the country so their non-Swiss business is vital to them. Okay, it’s not all based in the US, but even so it’s loss would be a major blow unless they planned carefully for withdrawal.
The Swiss do value making their own decisions though and don’t like being told what to do by others. So whether this agreement will be accepted remains to be seen and whether there will be any referendums in the coming months too. Two of the major parties were pretty fired up about it all a few months ago so hopefully they’ll take it further.
didnt know where else to put this. Probably it has already been posted somewhere?
Germany to share data on American accounts with U.S.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/05/30/germany-to-share-bank-data-with-us/2373913/
Medea and SwissPinoy
The basic problem Switzerland has is for most of my lifetime they have chosen closer relations with the United States over closer integration with the rest of Europe. This has been strongly supported by the big two. I suspect at some level they felt it was more important to keep bank secrecy for clients from the rest of Europe. However with the UBS scandal and all they really don’t have any friends right now. Luxembourg, Belgium, and Austria are at least EU members and the first two founding and really important EU members. Like hosting the capital and most of the institutions.
The other and broader issue is Europe including Switzerland has too many banks. Not so much small community banks but wannabe Goldman Sachs’. How does the second largest bank in Belgium become one of the primary creditors(through its NYC Branch) of the City of Birmingham Alabama bankrupt with half the city council under indictment for bribery and corruption. Even the Dutch who aren’t supposed to have any of the Mediterranean looseness of the Belgian Walloons have huge messes in the banking system. The main benefit of all of the problems in the Dutch banking system is all the large traditional political parties are so covered in mud(read Dutch Fin Min “Dieselboom”) that Ms. S In’t Veld’s D66 Party are actually closer to real political power in the Hague than they have been in decades.
The following European Banks need to be put of their misery:
ABN Amro
UBS
Credit Suisse
Dexia
Natixis
Fortis
Most of German landesbank
Bankia
Royal Bank of Scotland
and there’s more.
A good blog posting on French Banks by John Hempton(behind the scenes friend of the site on Citizenship Based Taxation)
http://brontecapital.blogspot.com/2008/12/bronte-capital-calls-for-new-french.html
While this applies to French banks and in particular Credit Agricole put any other EU or Swiss bank in there and the same thing applies. French/EU “mathematical” finance investment bank is really really bad.
UBS in France also now under investigation:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/UBS_France_put_under_formal_investigation.html?cid=36014968
A written communication from UBS states that: “UBS is one of the few banks in Switzerland that allows customer accounts for dual US citizens and has not force closed them. FATCA becomes effective as of 1.1.2014 and is valid for all banks in Switzerland. Many banks cannot and will not be able to comply (at this time there are only three banks).”
Thanks to FATCA, the noose tightens on US citizens trying to work and lead normal lives in Switzerland.
@Tim, If UBS and Credit Suisse are shut down, then Americans living in Switzerland will only be able to bank at PostFinance.
Innocante- yes we just want to lead normal lives, complying with the law of the country we choose to live and not have to also have to serve, pay, report to and worry about the USA taking something for nothing. That wish and desire does not seem to be in the cards for the foreseeable future.
Well, theoretically when/if any of the Swiss bills get passed one of the provisions is that the banks aren’t supposed to discriminate against US citizens, so you should be able to get an account at any Swiss bank. Quite how that’s supposed to work if they haven’t installed all the reporting equipment I haven’t worked out yet. Unless they just use the info they already have and pass it to the Swiss government who then passes it on to the IRS. Otherwise, if they have to install all the stuff to make reports, as far as I can see, the smaller Swiss banks will still refuse Americans because they can’t/won’t want the installation costs for what are relatively few clients. Even if they get fined by the Swiss government for doing so, it’ll be way cheaper than installing the necessary equipment.
This law only has a chance if one of the large political parties radically changes their mind. SP has suggested that such a possibility could exist under the condition of reciprocity. The federal council is expected to make such an offer. But it is unlikely that the government will accept such soon.
http://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/session/hochspannung-vor-dem-steuerdeal
Several days ago the Swiss PostFinance sent the following letter to customers identified as US Persons (translated). PostFinance is one of the three banking institutions in Switzerland that will deal with US Persons, with UBS and Credit Suisse being the other two. For the record, there are approx. 300 banks in Switzerland:
“Updating of your customer file
Dear
The current developments in the tax negotiations between Switzerland and the USA has made it indispensable to require additional documents from customers who are taxable in the USA.
PostFinance has therefore decided to require a form W-9 from customers with US nationality or domicile in the USA. We request you to review, complete and sign the attached form and return it to us no later than 30 June 2013. Form W-9 is only available in the English language and all instructions to complete it can be taken directly from the form.
Form W-9 ensures for PostFinance compliance with tax requirements with US Persons and is an important requirement for continuance of a business relationship. Please consider that we can only maintain a business relationship with you when the signed form is received by the mentioned date.
In view of the new US tax law FATCA (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act) we must contact you again in the coming days.
We thank you for your cooperation.
Friendly greetings,
The Swiss Post
PostFinance
Compliance Desk”
Yes, that’s basically the same letter that UBS and presumably Credit Suisse have been sending out to their US customers.
If you don’t sign, then you’ll no longer be able to bank with us.
French Criminal Tax Probe Of UBS—Talk About Déjà Vu – Forbes
http://onforb.es/16J3a1i
Check out this AmCham position paper:
http://www.amcham.ch/news/downloads/130604_Position%20Paper%20June%202013%20V2.pdf
It’s riddled with inaccuracies:
* “VD applicable to individual US residents….” — not, it’s applicable to USPs WW – incl. CH residents!
* “With some 30’000 files collected from Swiss Banks’ clients through voluntary disclosure …” — not, it’s 30k VD’s WW — and not all are from CH!
Martin, Harry – please get your facts straight!
Basically it means that the Swiss banks will still suffer draconian penalties through voluntary disclosure, if the individual results are anything to go by. It’s just that the IRS and DoJ won’t have to take them to court to impose penalties and, despite what it says, the Swiss government will have to bail them out or see their biggest banks collapse.
If they reckon 30,000 disclosures is most of the info anyway, why the rush and push to get the Swiss government to agree? If they have the info they just need to follow up on it.
Am I being cynical when I think that if the US had already signed the 2009 double taxation agreement they could have persued the tax side much more quickly and cheaply?
They’ve frozen it for the time being. Here’s the French original with a VERY bad English translation. Sorry about that, but translation programs leave something to be desired.
Le règlement du conflit fiscal des banques suisses avec les Etats-Unis se complique. Le National a décidé mercredi par 100 voix contre 90 de geler l’examen de la loi urgente proposée par le Conseil fédéral tant que le Parlement ne sera pas informé du contenu du programme offert par Washington pour abandonner sa chasse aux établissements ayant encouragé la fraude fiscale.
The regulation of the fiscal conflict of the Swiss banks with the United States complicates itself. The National decided Wednesday by 100 voices against 90 to freeze the exam of the urgent law proposed so much by the federal Council that the Parliament won’t be informed of the content of the program offered by Washington to abandon its hunt to the establishments having encouraged the fiscal fraud.
From left to right, everyone agrees that: “In principle, this won’t work”. All party speakers are stating that one cannot write laws about something when one is unclear of its consequences.
http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/schweiz/der-druck-auf-widmer-schlumpf-steigt-1.18093550
Lawyers cry foul over bank data transfer
Swiss financial lawyers, tax advisors and asset managers are bracing themselves for a legal battle with the United States if banks get the final go-ahead to release their names to US tax evasion investigators.
Parliament will vote during its current session on whether to accept or block a cabinet proposal to allow banks to hand over confidential data chronicling their business dealings with US clients. In doing so, the financial institutions would dodge both Swiss banking secrecy laws and criminal prosecution in the US.