73 thoughts on “We want to know once and for all, for sure: Is it true, legal policy, a CHOICE: the US cannot force anyone who is born outside of the US to acquire US citizenship?”

1. Selective Service – yes. A colleague of mine, a Can/Am dual born in Canada, was denied student loans in California (or was it a grant?) for not registering for the draft – he found this frustrating, b/c he didn’t know anyone expected him to (being raised in Canada, it had never come up), and wouldn’t have minded.

2. Actually, I got a first US passport at the US consulate in Toronto as a 22-year old male – I found out about the draft registration thing in my late 20s, and also wouldn’t have minded registering (I was in the Canadian military at the time, though) and thought that really they should have taken a moment to point it out, just as a matter of consular helpfulness.

3. I don’t know how the US would define “claim” but I do know by this there is a fee attached to the “claim.”

   From: http://canada.usembassy.gov/consular_services/citizenship-claims.html

   Embassy of the United States, Ottawa, Canada

   Citizenship Claims

   Adults who wish to claim U.S. Citizenship, please submit the following to the Consular Section (American Citizens Services) of the U.S. Embassy or Consulate nearest to your residence.

   Checklist
   Citizenship Questionnaire (57KB PDF)

   Form DS-11, completed but not signed.

   Form DS-4079 (109KB PDF), completed but not signed.

   Applicant’s official Provincial Birth Record, showing complete information on the parents

   Note: Some posts can only accept an original Registration of Live Birth, bearing the impression seal of the Vital Statistics office. This record is kept on file with Vital Statistics and a certified photocopy bearing the impression seal of the office can be issued. This document tells us whether there have been any amendments to the record. The child’s certificate of birth is not always acceptable. Please refer to your post-specific instructions when you receive your application forms, for acceptable birth record instructions.

   Applicant’s Identification, such as a driver’s license, student I.D. or Canadian passport.

   Evidence of Applicant’s Name Change (if applicable)

   Note: Present your marriage certificates, divorce decrees, adoption papers, or court-ordered name changes. This is important for women whose last name has changed since birth because of marriage(s).

   Evidence of U.S. Citizenship of Parent(s)

   U.S. passport, Certificate of Citizenship/Naturalization, Consular Report of Birth Abroad, or a U.S. birth certificate bearing the impression seal of the vital records office that issued it and including the date of filing. If you do not have a certified copy of your parents’ birth record, write to the vital records office in the state, county, or municipality where your U.S. citizen parent or parents were born. Many records from the turn of the century are not readily available. If none of the vital records offices listed above have a record, keep the replies and try to obtain secondary evidence, such as a census record or a baptismal record showing date and place of birth. All correspondence from these places must be submitted with your application.

   Note: If you were born before May 24, 1934, you will have acquired your U.S. citizenship through either your mother or your father. You need only submit evidence of U.S. citizenship for one or the other, not both. If you were born after May 24, 1934, to two U.S. parents, submit evidence of U.S. citizenship for both of them.

   Certified copy of the Parents’ Marriage Certificate

   Documentary evidence of termination of any previous marriages of either parent (i.e. divorce decree, death certificate, etc.), if applicable

   Evidence of your parent(s)’s residence/physical presence in the U.S.:
   If you were born between Jan. 13, 1941 and prior to Dec. 24, 1952, to one U.S. citizen parent, you will need to present evidence of the periods during which your U.S. citizen parent resided in the U.S.

   If you were born on or after Dec. 24, 1952, to one U.S. citizen parent, you will need to present evidence of the periods during which your U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the U.S.

   If you have two foreign-born U.S. citizen parents, you must present evidence that at least one of them resided in the U.S. prior to your birth.

   Note: Physical presence is not the same as residence. For example, if a person was residing in the U.S., but left for vacations or schooling abroad, the person was not physically present in the U.S. during those periods of time.

   Submit your parent’s Canadian Immigration Record showing original entry to Canada from the U.S. Other evidence may be required by the Consul, such as school records, military records, employment records, etc.

   If you were born after Jan. 13, 1941 and your U.S. citizen parent is still living, have that parent complete the Affidavit of Parentage and sign it before either a U.S. Consular Officer or a Notary Public.

   If your parent is deceased, submit the death certificate and other evidence, as above.

   Photographs
   Submit two recent, identical color passport photographs, two inches by two inches, as described on the back of form Form DS-11 Passport Application.

   Fee
   $135.00 U.S. funds in the form of cash or money order. PERSONAL CHECKS CANNOT BE ACCEPTED. We also accept all major credit cards. We do not have the facilities to pay by debit card.

   Please Note: Copies of documents certified by notaries cannot be accepted.

   All documents submitted must be original records, bearing the official seal of the issuing authority.

   Submit Your Completed Questionnaire

   Submit your completed Questionnaire in person, together with Form DS-11 and the passport application fee, at the U.S. Consulate serving the region of Canada in which you reside.

4. Birth of US Citizens Abroad – Consular Report of Birth Abroad

5. @A broken man on a Halifax pier

   They actually used to throw people in jail and gave them fines of up to $250,000 for not registering, however found that doling out Draconian punishment actually caused a decline in registration (sound familiar?) and now instead don’t dole out the aid, grants and loans as punishment (or incentive, depending on how you look at it).

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System

6. So, another law the US overlooks, I guess.

   (from the link that bubblebustin gives above)

   Under current law, all male U.S. citizens are required to register with Selective Service within 30 days of their 18th birthday. In addition, non-U.S.-citizen males between the ages of 18 and 25 (inclusive) living in the United States must register. This includes permanent residents (holders of Green Cards), refugees, asylees, and illegal immigrants.[2] Foreign males in the United States as lawful non-immigrants (international students, visitors, diplomats, etc.) are not required to register.[2] Failure to register as required is grounds for denying a petition for US citizenship. Currently, citizens who are 17 and 3 months old can pre-register so when they turn 18 their information will automatically be added into the system.

7. @calgary411 –

   That’s a different issue – has to do with people living in the US who want to be naturalized.

8. Hi, broken man,

   Yes, I realize that. Why should those born abroad to US parents (they had no say in the matter) who have never had anything to the US, never registered, have any US military obligation? If there is a military obligation, it should or would be better for the country where they live, etc., etc.

9. @Calgary411….I wrote to the SSS and they seem to agree that if the DoS says he isn’t a US citizen, he isn’t required to register—however if that changes between 18-26 he would be required to register.

   
   Dear Sir or Madam,

   I was a US citizen born in the US in [xxxx]. I renounced my US citizenship at the US consulate in Jerusalem on May [7], 2013. In addition, I have a son who was born to me outside the US (Jus Sanguinis) to me in April 2005 (currently 8 years old). Although he meets the requirements to obtain US citizenship through me, we never registered him as a US citizen at the consulate. (He already has dual UK and Israeli citizenship, and I was/am not interested in him having a third citizenship with the US).

   I recently came across the following information online [see below] by someone who spoke with the Department of State. It seems to me that the Department of State policy is that children born outside the US to parents who qualify to receive citizenship by virtue of transmission through them are nonetheless not automatically US citizens unless their parents (before age 18) or they themselves (after 18) take an affirmative step to go to a US consulate or embassy abroad and register as US citizens. Unless and until they do so, the Department of State (based on what is said below) do not consider them to be US citizens even if they meet the transmission requirements.

   My question to you (selective service) is if this is in fact the case, would my son having never been registered as a US citizen (not a citizen per DoS policy, living outside the US) be required to register in the selective service system on his 18th birthday?

   Thank you,
   [Ben Ploni]

   (Quoted the DoS policy on the people in Toronto)

   >>>Response>>>

   If your son is not a U.S. dual national, he will not be required to register with the Selective Service System when he turns 18 years old. If he should choose to live in the United States as an immigrant, he will be required to register before his 26th birthday. Immigrants who do not enter the United States or maintain their lawful non-immigrant status by continually remaining on a valid visa until after they were 26 years old, are not required to register with Selective Service.

   See our Web site chart on who must register with the Selective Service System: http://www.sss.gov/FSwho.htm

   Thank you,

   Jennifer Burke
   Public Affairs Specialist
   Public and Intergovernmental Affairs
   National Headquarters | Selective Service System

   >>>My reply>>>

   Thank you for your reply. My main question is that if the Department of State does not recognize him as a dual-national if he is never registered as such (U.S. Citizen), can I assume that the Selective Service System will not recognize him as well and thus not require him to register?

   Thank you.

   >>>Her response to my Reply>>>

   ou can only assume with the information you have today. Correct, if your son is not a U.S. citizen and would not be living in the United States anytime between his 18th birthday to his 26th birthday, he would not be required to register with the Selective Service System. A lot can change in 10 years. Your son may choose to reside in the U.S., he may have a U.S. girlfriend, he may want to attend college in the United States and decide to stay…etc.

   Thank you,

   Jennifer Burke
   Public Affairs Specialist
   Public and Intergovernmental Affairs
   National Headquarters | Selective Service System

10. Maybe a bit off-topic, but interesting none-the-less:

    DE SILVA: Citizens, but not Americans
    Dual citizenship encourages divided loyalties

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/3/citizens-but-not-americans/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS

11. @BenPloni.

    Thank you, very interesting additional comment on this subject — and all you’ve provided so far.

    I am waiting to hear back from Sylvia D. Johnson, Consul General at the Ottawa US Embassy in Canada. She has acknowledged my email and said she will get back to me in a few days.

12. @Calgary…I’m still waiting to see if Kirk responds…haven’t heard back from him…but I bet it’s still a steep learning curve for him…

13. @Calgary411

    Toronto confirmed what was written earlier. It may not be on DoS letterhead, but I have the electronic signature verifying their position…(still haven’t heard from Kirk)

    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Received: by 10.58.204.193 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Jun 2013 06:54:27 -0700 (PDT)
    In-Reply-To:
    References:

    Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 16:54:27 +0300
    Delivered-To: xxxxx@gmail.com
    Message-ID:
    Subject: Re: children’s status clarification
    From: xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx
    To: “Toronto, Passport”
    Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bf0dd26152fa304de7ca7a1

    –047d7bf0dd26152fa304de7ca7a1
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thank you for your response..

    On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Toronto, Passport wrote:

    > Good Morning,****
    >
    > ** **
    >
    > They do not have to claim U.S. citizenship if they do not intend to. As
    > for travel to U.S. with their U.K. passports, please visit
    > http://www.us.travel.state.gov for more information on the visa waiver program.*=
    *
    > **
    >
    > ** **
    >
    > Thank you and have a pleasant day.****
    >
    > ** **
    >
    > ACS/ ta****
    >
    > ** **
    >
    > *From:* xxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxxx@gmail.com]
    > *Sent:* Thursday, June 06, 2013 9:34 AM
    > *To:* Toronto, Passport
    > *Subject:* Re: children’s status clarification****
    >
    > ** **
    >
    > They were born in Jerusalem (2005 and 2007). They never were registered. […]
    >
    > ** **
    >
    > On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Toronto, Passport TorontoPassport@state.gov> wrote:****
    >
    > Good Morning,****
    >
    > ****
    >
    > Good Morning,****
    >
    > ****
    >
    > Where were your children born? If born outside the U.S., did you register
    > them at a U.S. Consulate or U.S. Embassy? ****
    >
    > ****
    >
    > ACS/ ta****
    >
    > ****
    >
    > *From:* xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx[mailto:xxxxxxx@gmail.com]
    > *Sent:* Thursday, June 06, 2013 9:26 AM
    > *To:* Toronto, Passport****
    >
    >
    > *Subject:* Fwd: children’s status clarification****
    >
    > ****
    >
    > ****
    >
    > Dear sir/madam,****
    >
    > ****
    >
    > I saw a comment posted (below) online of someone who was the born outside
    > the U.S. to U.S. citizens. They said the your office [Toronto U.S.
    > Consulate] told them that U.S. citizenship for them was a choice…that i=
    s,
    > until they applied for U.S. citizenship (and if approved), they aren’t U.=
    S.
    > citizens (even if their parent(s) meet/met the transmission requirements.
    > As I take everything I see online with a grain of salt I wanted to verif=
    y
    > if this is correct..****
    >
    > ****
    >
    > I previously had U.S. citizenship and renounced in May 2013. My kids
    > were born before that date and have dual UK and Israeli citizenship.
    > Although they should meet the transmission requirements, I have/had no
    > intention of registering them as US citizens. Does this this mean if my
    > kids needed to visit the U.S. (and aren’t registered), they can travel on
    > their UK passports through the Visa Waiver Program? Or are they required
    > to to register as U.S. citizens and obtain U.S. passports. It seems to me
    > based on what the your office (allegedly) said to the person below, they
    > aren’t required to claim it U.S citizenship–it’s a choice.****
    >
    > ****
    >
    > Thank you,****
    >
    > xxxxxxxx****
    >
    > ****
    >
    > “I wanted to share my brother=92s and my experience today of applying for=
    US
    > citizenship at the Toronto Consulate. We are both Canadian born children =
    of
    > a US parent who is now deceased. Given the information we have taken from
    > the internet, IRS and US citizenship sites, we came to believe that we ha=
    d
    > to obtain US citizenship (we were never registered as born abroad by our =
    US
    > parent). We completed all the paper work, obtained the documents and book=
    ed
    > the appointment and attended for that today. We were to be granted US
    > citizenship, however when we advised them that we actually did not wish t=
    o
    > obtain the citizenship and in fact the only reason we had come was becaus=
    e
    > we believed the US required it of us they were dismayed. We were told by
    > the consulate officer and her direct superior that they cannot force anyo=
    ne
    > who is born outside of the US to acquire citizenship =96 it is a choice. =
    When
    > we pressed her further stating that this is not the information we are
    > getting she advised clearly that we are not US citizens unless we willing=
    ly
    > apply for and accept the citizenship. She stated we can say unequivocally
    > that we are not US citizens unless we wish to be. We respectfully decline=
    d
    > the offer of citizenship (to their amazement) and left with our refund an=
    d
    > documents in hand. I will certainly sleep better and breathe easier! I ho=
    pe
    > this helps other Canadian born who are concerned about this.”****
    >
    > ****
    >
    > ** **
    >

14. Thanks again, Ben Ploni — so much for this additional information.

    I have not heard from the Ottawa Consulate but will forward your additional comment to Sylvia D. Johnson, General Consul, there.

    I really feel US Persons Abroad need to know DEFINITELY how they can proceed with their lives and make decisions for their children, who will in turn make their own CHOICE whether or not they will CLAIM US citizenship when they are of age if it is the case they can do that (or not). We don’t want differing “interpretations” from various US officials / law makers / enforcers / our own countries’ financial institutions, our tax authorities or the IRS. We do not want the further obligation of the cost of professional advice to determine this, when that advice might be different than some are obviously getting at some US consulates around the world (are some consulates giving differing answers to these questions). It may be that this is true and our innocent children born and living abroad, who had no choice in the matter of to whom or where they were born, are “collateral damage / out of luck”. But it also may be that it is not true. We don’t know the definitive answer.

    We need to know! This is too important and affects the lives of way too many “US” families living abroad. Please, we need a definitive answer that we can determine how our families are to live their lives, to determine how we can live the most normal lives we can (without hiding as if we and our children (not born in the US and may have never stepped foot into the US) are criminals)!

    If a child born outside the US is not registered with the US, does he/she have to register in order to renounce or in order to be protected from the dire consequences of living normal lives in their own country because of FATCA? We should not have to GUESS about this — or at least that is not the way I and many others want to live our lives, trying to interpret what are the real consequences for not following what, for us, is very opaque and unjust law. Are our children born abroad automatically US citizens or do they have a claim to US citizenship?

    (And, of course, in the case of those like my son AND SO MANY OTHERS, it is absolutely pointless to jump through all the US hoops in order to renounce as a developmental disability which restricts that child from doing so because his lack of sufficient understanding through mental capacity along with the “regulation” that I or any other parent, guardian or trustee does not have the right to make that decision on behalf of our family members, even with a court order.)

    I know* that Ms Johnson and other professionals can understand our anxiety and our need to determine the answer. The stress level that I know have and what I can imagine other families have is intense. It is no way to live when we really need to get on with other important things in our lives.

    * Or, Hello — does anyone get the absurdity and the injustice of this?

15. @Calgary…

    If you want to appeal to a higher authority, maybe try Ask-OCS-L@state.gov — That’s their legal department. Might be worth it. A friend of mine today told me someone in the department said he had to register their kids if they travel to the states, but I don’t know if the full facts and context is correct in what I was told. I’m not a fan of opinion shopping, but I’d think the legal department has more standing.

16. Thanks for this, BenPloni. I have sent another email to Ms Johnson at the Ottawa Embassy, expressing what I said in the last comment. I will wait to hear back from her. My next step will then be the new contact information you’ve given me for the Department of State legal department. I appreciate all your help in trying to determine this. I hope you feel it as important as I do that this needs a definitive answer. My best!

17. If Smith or Johnson give an answer contradictory to what Toronto said, you definitely have good grounds to go up the ladder seeing that different posts are giving different advice..

18. @Calgary411…It is important to me too. I was considering appealing my s.1 relinquishment denial for a backdated CLN (in lieu of the s.5 i took in May), since i don’t want my kids to have to deal with the consequences; but i’m more willing to let the issue slide if they can decide for themselves whether to accept or reject.

19. The simple fact is that we need to know. “Does the US confer automatic citizenship on the children of those eligible parents with out the ACT of claiming citizenship or are the children NON-citizens until they make the claimant ACT of registering to be acknowledged as a US citizen.” Translation: If I don’t register (to make a claim of US citizenship – is my son a US citizen though he may have a right to be or is he NOT a citizen until he makes that “claiming act”?

20. I believe the terms would be ‘by law’ or ‘by application’, but I could be wrong.

21. @BenPloni

    Again, this reminds my of the story I read (sorry, can’t recall where) about someone who sent in an application for a visa to enter the US, how his visa was rejected and was informed that he should instead be apply for a US passport as he was considered a US citizen from the information he gave on his application.

22. Unfortunately I’m not a lawyer so I would like to keep things simplified for the layperson. “by application” may either refer to a “claiming act” or “naturalization by application”. But what we want to know is whether the US considers our foreign born children citizens regardless of whether we claim our citizenship or not and thus end up incurring an obligation to taxation.

23. Pingback: Cook v. Tait 10: Opinion – Those born outside the US are NOT automatically US citizens | U.S. Persons Abroad - Members of a Unique Tax, Form and Penalty Club