David Kestenbaum who writes for NRP’s Planet Money will be airing a story tonight on NPR’s “All Things Considered” based upon interviews he has done with people that have joined the IRS OVDP / OVDI starting back in 2009. I was one of several that he interviewed including some others who have posted here at IBS like @NotThatLisa and @Moby. At least that is my understanding.
It will air tonight across the nation starting on the East Coast in the 4:00pm – 6:30pm time slot, and will be available on the May 10th, Friday show online here.
I have been told, it will bring the story back full circle to where it began, and try to convey the spectrum of people coming forward, from willful evaders down to people in situations similar to many here
It is with some trepidation that I will be listening! You never know how a journalist will shape a narrative. I guess the story is better told, rather than remaining submerged. Being public in these matters is not easy, but I shed the fear when I started posting about it here to help others who were struggling with the “what to do” questions.
I will cringe at the expected on-line comments on about how “tax cheats” deserve it, but I guess that is the lumps you have to take to try to help people see a larger story, if that is what the NPR story line accomplishes. I guess I will just have to listen and see.
59 thoughts on “Story on IRS Voluntary Disclosures #OVDP Results to Air May 14th on @NPRs “All Things Considered””
My first comment still not out of moderation…
I just added this one too…
I previously posted a comment expressing disappointment in the story, however what was based upon it as written here. It is still in moderation, so maybe NPRs planet Money will or will not let it out, but I want to modify my comment a bit.
I finally had a chance to listen to it, and in fairness, they did show the difference between the Homelander moving money offshore, “hiding as they say”, and those who were not the category of offenders that the IRS was looking for, but because they now had knowledge of their failure, had little choice but disclose or cross the line into willfulness.
BTW, I found out about my problem while listening to Robert Segal on All Things Considered!
The problem with the IRS Voluntary Disclosure program, was that it was a one size fits all penalty application and the length of time (Life Credit Units-LCUs) and expense you have to go to extract yourself from the processing factory just to get back to compliance was exhausting. As stated 851 days from “get to go.” Surely there was a more efficient use of IRS and my time for an easier, quicker and less painful route to compliance.
If NPR lets my comment out, it explains the questions unanswered about the IRS administration of this program, and the impacts it has on Americans living abroad.
This story as told is just a sliver of a much BIGGER story, which includes FATCA, and I understand that given limited time and maybe interest, it is a harder story to tell. Someday, maybe as Paul Harvey used to say, an NPR story can conclude with, “And now you know the rest of the story.” What we have here, is just a beginning. 🙂
@Chris
Yes, I gave him a treasury trove of references, raised the questions that should be asked, but worried about too much overload. I recognize that journalist, generally don’t like a person to spin the narrative for them, and of course, their antenna is tuned to agendas so maybe he was wary of me. However, as Em says, the story is too complex and nuanced for the limited time.
@just me
Just finished listening to it. It wasn’t that bad, but then it wasn’t that good either. I don’t feel that USP’s abroad were vilified in any way, just that a great many of us don’t file US taxes. I guess why we don’t is the topic of another episode.
You sound more American than I imagined you would 🙂
Sadly, in conclusion, you can not say this about Americans Abroad…
So while it’s true that rhinos are losing the war against poachers, it’s also true that they have a surprising number of loyal friends.
Yeah…. could have been better. And they failed to mention the 40 million or so immigrants who might still have financial ties to their countries. So yes, a drop in the bucket as he concludes.
I wish he had mentioned the one size fits all of OVDP instead of just describing how the penalty was calculated, and insisted more about how it might be fair for those who were really hiding money, but totally unfair to minnows.
It is amazing to me, but after interviewing me, I guess my comments are not to be allowed out of moderation…
I see that MaryLouise Serrato of ACA has commented, but not many other comments are posted. Only 8. So this appears to be a dud of an effort with little interest by NPR listeners.
Maybe if David had focused on the faults within the program he would have had more interest. Actions like “bait and switch”, time needed to be processed, the fact that legally many participants could have just amended returns without any issue, but were steered/pushed into this program by the IRS would have been a lot more interesting than what he reported.
His focus was on hiding money as it is part of his series on what secret accounts are all about. He did portray the consequences of how harsh it is if one is considered to be hiding money offshore well. It does not matter how innocent one is The interview with Just Me showed that.
The interview seems to be geared more to scare people into compliance than expose what happens if you follow the suggested IRS procedures and enter one of their programs.
NPR requires an account and login in with a public profile. Many people are still not willing to expose themselves. I like who the IRS refused to comment on the story…
I also think it’s kind of ironic that they call the IRS targeting conservatives groups to verify that they can have the tax exempt status an abuse of power, but the legalized robbery of OVDP is still not exposed for what it really is. Maybe it’s time to contact our Republican senators again and tell them to mention OVDP as another abuse of power from the IRS. For this one, there is not even need for investigation. Just look at the GAO data and they’ll have the data to back their statements. Romney is not running for president anymore. Republicans don’t have any reason to hide this story anymore.
@Not that Lisa!, I totally agree with you. I thought you were going to be featured in the interview as well.
Maybe I misunderstood.
A dufus of a lawyer. Likely, half of his clients are minnows, but he carries that attitude. Who in their right mind would go to him after listening to his attitude_
@Mark, absolutely – the lawyer was at the least unprofessional — why was he used as a spokesperson?
Thanks for your interview with NPR, Just Me. After I was stung by one interview and realizing they only wanted to exploit my son for the “story,” I’ve been leery of any more. Seems whatever we say is boiled down to a “sound byte” and a good headline.
The other thing is that NPR is politically geared towards the left, as well as the majority of their audience. How can we expect them to be objective on this subject that would add oil to the fire and undermine even more the administration, if they told the story another way.
National PR still gets a % of its budget from National, and Barry stood up in the debates in support of Big Bird. Never bite the hand that feeds.
@all,
I did get an email from David today, sending me the link to the story. His one comment that bears mentioning… ” I think it’s important to have stories like yours included in this.”
So, I sent him a reply and expanded on my comments which as of this writing are still in moderation. 🙂
As for left leaning, in the past I would say that was the case, but they are much better than 10 years ago, and frankly on Planet Money they try to air economic debate from both sides of the equation, I will give them that. So, there are more balanced then some of the Mainstream Media and generally less sensational. Still my preference for American news coverage, even if they choose not to listen to my narrative in the way I wished they would, or they have still failed to report on FATCA. That latter failure is something I still do not understand. Here is what I said to David…
As an aside, why FATCA has never been reported on in the public media just astounds me for how BIG of a sea change it represents around the world. Planet Money handles complicated stories to educate the readers, like even Basil III, CDOs, Toxie, Libor rates, etc, and yet this story has been totally overlooked, ignored, consider not significant? ….. I don’t know what to call it or why it is not covered.
It think, personally, the systemic risk issues related to its application and the world wide global GATCA that is being formed is profound and maybe bigger then CDOs and CDSs in terms of impacts on the world economy. I am sure you think I am being hyperbolic here, but why do NPR listeners have NO IDEA what FATCA is, like I had no idea what a CDO was prior to This American Lifes story A Giant Pool of Money sparked my interest. FATCA was enacted in 2010, and 3 years later, do an informal poll, what response will you get? I know the answer. “Uh?” and blank stares is the response I always see.
Oh well, never mind…
I just listened to this story. Why oh why do they continue to use the term ‘hiding’, which is an active verb that contains an intent to deceive, even when describing the example of someone living outside the US, who didn’t know they had to report on their local accounts. They also distort it when using the example of a chequing account – and talk about non-reporting and non-payment of US tax on it. All my accounts are local to where I live, and registered with the revenue agency of my home country. Chequing (and many savings) accounts earn no, or very minimal interest. The money in them is most often deposited from post-tax wages – money which has already had tax extracted before we received it, and remitted directly to our home revenue agency. We are to get ‘foreign tax credits’ for that tax paid. Other accounts – like retirement savings, may be exempt from US taxation. So it is a deliberate or sloppy distortion to intimate that the money is 1. ‘hidden’, and 2. taxable or untaxed 3. ‘offshore’ – which is local to us.
The NPR story ends by offering up the number of Americans living ‘abroad’, as if that is the number who; 1. have accounts that both UStaxable and reportable (not true if they don’t meet the FBAR threshold, or earn taxable interest) 2. are accounts held outside the US for some nefarious purpose rather than our ordinary local banking and 3. have the option to bank in the US instead.
NPR completely ignores that many/most are duals – either from birth outside the US, or via naturalization paying taxes in full where they live, work and may have been born.
NPR completely ignores the Taxpayer Advocate report that says that the majority of those who do file from ‘abroad’, owe the US zero tax. It ignores double taxation, and tax on things that are not taxable where we live, as well as the application of the FBAR to nonpersonal accounts where we have NO financial interest – and thus no US tax could be assessed.
I’m sorry Just Me. You were very brave to come forward. So disappointing that NPR did not present it with any serious critical analysis or thought. They note that people don’t want to come forward to be interviewed. Well this is why. They don’t bother to understand the nuances, or to check on the real situation.
And, no mention that the TAS has severely criticized the IRS for not offering any good and reasonable alternative to becoming ‘compliant’, except coming forward under the OVD programs with their presumption of criminality and willful intent – so those who signed up are not a good indication of how many were US homelanders with deliberately hidden assets. vs. those with legal local accounts ‘abroad’ who unfortunately thought that coming forward as directed was the right thing to do.
@badger
US persons abroad live in a parallel universe that cannot be fully understood unless you experience it yourself.
@bubblebustin, it’s the Twilight Zone. I have to keep reminding myself that this is a marathon and not a sprint. But I feel seriously depleted. And because the shackles are invisible to everyone else, I continue to feel disconnected from the spring and the sunlight and the rest of the non-US world all around me, as all my fellow Canadians go about their normal life without this senseless jeopardy. Will I be able to maintain sufficient equilibrium for long enough? Some days I just don’t know.
Ditto, badger, bubblebustin — hang in there everyone. Thank god for Isaac Brock.
Don’t worry calgary411. They can’t keep our good badger down for long but oh how I understand her sentiment. Nothing is the same since form nation bombed our brains. My first instinct was to try to make our friends and family understand why we have such worried faces but luckily I curbed my enthusiasm for that because in a small town it is best left unsaid. The wrong person knowing about our US connection could end up biting us in our bank accounts someday. We are not physically hiding but emotionally we are because freedom is just another word the USA has relegated to Orwell’s slavery dustbin. TGFB (Thank Goodness For Brock) indeed!
There may be hope. Acting IRS commissioner Steve Miller stepped down. He tendered his resignation. I expect Nina Olson to meet with the new commissioner and press for her recommendations to be implemented.
@Badger,
“It’s the Twilight Zone … And because the shackles are invisible to everyone else, I continue to feel disconnected from the spring and the sunlight and the rest of the non-US world all around me, as all my fellow Canadians go about their normal life without this senseless jeopardy”
Boy, do I relate to that. We’ve both been in the US mess for quite a while. This New US has made me feel like I was living in my own country, my only country, on a visitor’s visa. When I first learned about this for weeks when I’d go to the store, it was a sunny day and I was like seeing through a screen as people walked around in their normal lives as I used to do. And even whilst resolving my US problem, I’d occasionally get that same dissociated feeling and a sense of deep depression. I’m an arson victim and that was a piece of cake compared to this.
I’d write more but I can feel myself going into rant mode if I don’t stop. But I wanted to say I’m with you. Although the shackles are invisible to everyone else, the shackles are not invisible to us and we’re working together to break them. And I really really appreciate your research and writing.
Again, it’s all about the support of each other here where we can be reminded that, no we’re not going insane — this is wrong and we need to fight it. The support of others has helped me get back on track many times. Thanks to all of you!!!
Now, what about that other guy that was happily targeting Americans abroad with his OVDP penalty extraction regime and frankly was probably as guilty as Miller on the partisan handing of tax exempt screening. Glad they are both gone, and maybe they could go through an OVDP as a penalty…. Justice would be for them to lose 851 days of LCUs..
My first comment still not out of moderation…
I just added this one too…
I previously posted a comment expressing disappointment in the story, however what was based upon it as written here. It is still in moderation, so maybe NPRs planet Money will or will not let it out, but I want to modify my comment a bit.
I finally had a chance to listen to it, and in fairness, they did show the difference between the Homelander moving money offshore, “hiding as they say”, and those who were not the category of offenders that the IRS was looking for, but because they now had knowledge of their failure, had little choice but disclose or cross the line into willfulness.
BTW, I found out about my problem while listening to Robert Segal on All Things Considered!
The problem with the IRS Voluntary Disclosure program, was that it was a one size fits all penalty application and the length of time (Life Credit Units-LCUs) and expense you have to go to extract yourself from the processing factory just to get back to compliance was exhausting. As stated 851 days from “get to go.” Surely there was a more efficient use of IRS and my time for an easier, quicker and less painful route to compliance.
If NPR lets my comment out, it explains the questions unanswered about the IRS administration of this program, and the impacts it has on Americans living abroad.
This story as told is just a sliver of a much BIGGER story, which includes FATCA, and I understand that given limited time and maybe interest, it is a harder story to tell. Someday, maybe as Paul Harvey used to say, an NPR story can conclude with, “And now you know the rest of the story.” What we have here, is just a beginning. 🙂
@Chris
Yes, I gave him a treasury trove of references, raised the questions that should be asked, but worried about too much overload. I recognize that journalist, generally don’t like a person to spin the narrative for them, and of course, their antenna is tuned to agendas so maybe he was wary of me. However, as Em says, the story is too complex and nuanced for the limited time.
@just me
Just finished listening to it. It wasn’t that bad, but then it wasn’t that good either. I don’t feel that USP’s abroad were vilified in any way, just that a great many of us don’t file US taxes. I guess why we don’t is the topic of another episode.
You sound more American than I imagined you would 🙂
Here are the priorities…
Rhinos get 7 minutes and 48 seconds…
Sadly, in conclusion, you can not say this about Americans Abroad…
So while it’s true that rhinos are losing the war against poachers, it’s also true that they have a surprising number of loyal friends.
Yeah…. could have been better. And they failed to mention the 40 million or so immigrants who might still have financial ties to their countries. So yes, a drop in the bucket as he concludes.
I wish he had mentioned the one size fits all of OVDP instead of just describing how the penalty was calculated, and insisted more about how it might be fair for those who were really hiding money, but totally unfair to minnows.
It is amazing to me, but after interviewing me, I guess my comments are not to be allowed out of moderation…
I see that MaryLouise Serrato of ACA has commented, but not many other comments are posted. Only 8. So this appears to be a dud of an effort with little interest by NPR listeners.
Maybe if David had focused on the faults within the program he would have had more interest. Actions like “bait and switch”, time needed to be processed, the fact that legally many participants could have just amended returns without any issue, but were steered/pushed into this program by the IRS would have been a lot more interesting than what he reported.
His focus was on hiding money as it is part of his series on what secret accounts are all about. He did portray the consequences of how harsh it is if one is considered to be hiding money offshore well. It does not matter how innocent one is The interview with Just Me showed that.
The interview seems to be geared more to scare people into compliance than expose what happens if you follow the suggested IRS procedures and enter one of their programs.
NPR requires an account and login in with a public profile. Many people are still not willing to expose themselves. I like who the IRS refused to comment on the story…
I also think it’s kind of ironic that they call the IRS targeting conservatives groups to verify that they can have the tax exempt status an abuse of power, but the legalized robbery of OVDP is still not exposed for what it really is. Maybe it’s time to contact our Republican senators again and tell them to mention OVDP as another abuse of power from the IRS. For this one, there is not even need for investigation. Just look at the GAO data and they’ll have the data to back their statements. Romney is not running for president anymore. Republicans don’t have any reason to hide this story anymore.
@Not that Lisa!, I totally agree with you. I thought you were going to be featured in the interview as well.
Maybe I misunderstood.
A dufus of a lawyer. Likely, half of his clients are minnows, but he carries that attitude. Who in their right mind would go to him after listening to his attitude_
@Mark, absolutely – the lawyer was at the least unprofessional — why was he used as a spokesperson?
Thanks for your interview with NPR, Just Me. After I was stung by one interview and realizing they only wanted to exploit my son for the “story,” I’ve been leery of any more. Seems whatever we say is boiled down to a “sound byte” and a good headline.
The other thing is that NPR is politically geared towards the left, as well as the majority of their audience. How can we expect them to be objective on this subject that would add oil to the fire and undermine even more the administration, if they told the story another way.
National PR still gets a % of its budget from National, and Barry stood up in the debates in support of Big Bird. Never bite the hand that feeds.
@all,
I did get an email from David today, sending me the link to the story. His one comment that bears mentioning… ” I think it’s important to have stories like yours included in this.”
So, I sent him a reply and expanded on my comments which as of this writing are still in moderation. 🙂
As for left leaning, in the past I would say that was the case, but they are much better than 10 years ago, and frankly on Planet Money they try to air economic debate from both sides of the equation, I will give them that. So, there are more balanced then some of the Mainstream Media and generally less sensational. Still my preference for American news coverage, even if they choose not to listen to my narrative in the way I wished they would, or they have still failed to report on FATCA. That latter failure is something I still do not understand. Here is what I said to David…
I just listened to this story. Why oh why do they continue to use the term ‘hiding’, which is an active verb that contains an intent to deceive, even when describing the example of someone living outside the US, who didn’t know they had to report on their local accounts. They also distort it when using the example of a chequing account – and talk about non-reporting and non-payment of US tax on it. All my accounts are local to where I live, and registered with the revenue agency of my home country. Chequing (and many savings) accounts earn no, or very minimal interest. The money in them is most often deposited from post-tax wages – money which has already had tax extracted before we received it, and remitted directly to our home revenue agency. We are to get ‘foreign tax credits’ for that tax paid. Other accounts – like retirement savings, may be exempt from US taxation. So it is a deliberate or sloppy distortion to intimate that the money is 1. ‘hidden’, and 2. taxable or untaxed 3. ‘offshore’ – which is local to us.
The NPR story ends by offering up the number of Americans living ‘abroad’, as if that is the number who; 1. have accounts that both UStaxable and reportable (not true if they don’t meet the FBAR threshold, or earn taxable interest) 2. are accounts held outside the US for some nefarious purpose rather than our ordinary local banking and 3. have the option to bank in the US instead.
NPR completely ignores that many/most are duals – either from birth outside the US, or via naturalization paying taxes in full where they live, work and may have been born.
NPR completely ignores the Taxpayer Advocate report that says that the majority of those who do file from ‘abroad’, owe the US zero tax. It ignores double taxation, and tax on things that are not taxable where we live, as well as the application of the FBAR to nonpersonal accounts where we have NO financial interest – and thus no US tax could be assessed.
I’m sorry Just Me. You were very brave to come forward. So disappointing that NPR did not present it with any serious critical analysis or thought. They note that people don’t want to come forward to be interviewed. Well this is why. They don’t bother to understand the nuances, or to check on the real situation.
And, no mention that the TAS has severely criticized the IRS for not offering any good and reasonable alternative to becoming ‘compliant’, except coming forward under the OVD programs with their presumption of criminality and willful intent – so those who signed up are not a good indication of how many were US homelanders with deliberately hidden assets. vs. those with legal local accounts ‘abroad’ who unfortunately thought that coming forward as directed was the right thing to do.
@badger
US persons abroad live in a parallel universe that cannot be fully understood unless you experience it yourself.
@bubblebustin, it’s the Twilight Zone. I have to keep reminding myself that this is a marathon and not a sprint. But I feel seriously depleted. And because the shackles are invisible to everyone else, I continue to feel disconnected from the spring and the sunlight and the rest of the non-US world all around me, as all my fellow Canadians go about their normal life without this senseless jeopardy. Will I be able to maintain sufficient equilibrium for long enough? Some days I just don’t know.
Ditto, badger, bubblebustin — hang in there everyone. Thank god for Isaac Brock.
Don’t worry calgary411. They can’t keep our good badger down for long but oh how I understand her sentiment. Nothing is the same since form nation bombed our brains. My first instinct was to try to make our friends and family understand why we have such worried faces but luckily I curbed my enthusiasm for that because in a small town it is best left unsaid. The wrong person knowing about our US connection could end up biting us in our bank accounts someday. We are not physically hiding but emotionally we are because freedom is just another word the USA has relegated to Orwell’s slavery dustbin. TGFB (Thank Goodness For Brock) indeed!
There may be hope. Acting IRS commissioner Steve Miller stepped down. He tendered his resignation. I expect Nina Olson to meet with the new commissioner and press for her recommendations to be implemented.
@Badger,
Boy, do I relate to that. We’ve both been in the US mess for quite a while. This New US has made me feel like I was living in my own country, my only country, on a visitor’s visa. When I first learned about this for weeks when I’d go to the store, it was a sunny day and I was like seeing through a screen as people walked around in their normal lives as I used to do. And even whilst resolving my US problem, I’d occasionally get that same dissociated feeling and a sense of deep depression. I’m an arson victim and that was a piece of cake compared to this.
I’d write more but I can feel myself going into rant mode if I don’t stop. But I wanted to say I’m with you. Although the shackles are invisible to everyone else, the shackles are not invisible to us and we’re working together to break them. And I really really appreciate your research and writing.
Again, it’s all about the support of each other here where we can be reminded that, no we’re not going insane — this is wrong and we need to fight it. The support of others has helped me get back on track many times. Thanks to all of you!!!
When I’m at my lowest, I read the wisdom of USCitizenAbroad, including the comments from so many people who really don’t know their own strength: Moving on and Dealing with Anger. There is another gem from him earlier — http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/09/04/form-3520-foreign-trusts-streamlined-filing-compliance-procedure/comment-page-2/#comment-52364.
The First Heads roll. I was driving south to California when I heard this glad tiddings, and it brought me great pleasure.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/300079-irs-first-head-rolls
Now, what about that other guy that was happily targeting Americans abroad with his OVDP penalty extraction regime and frankly was probably as guilty as Miller on the partisan handing of tax exempt screening. Glad they are both gone, and maybe they could go through an OVDP as a penalty…. Justice would be for them to lose 851 days of LCUs..
My moment of Zen…
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-may-13-2013/moment-of-zen—the-nonpartisan-irs?xrs=share_copy
Thanks @calgary, em and pacifica. I owe a debt to IBS that cannot be repaid. I hope to help those who come after, as well as contributing now.
@badger,
This site and the people who come here benefit greatly from your contributions!
I know that you, as well and I and many others, are weary. Our payback is our continuing to be ‘in the fight’.