RT @atossaaraxia I’ve spent far too many Friday nights angry this month. – That’s “far” too many!
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) March 23, 2013
The following comment by Calgary deserves to be a post.
… and someone needs to write a book on the “human” side of this, the collateral damage, especially for families like yours, Animal. And yours, monalisa.
If only others really, really understood, we could (or I could) leave the anger behind and live my remaining years without the nagging worry in the back of my mind that my son’s situation (and me as the trustee of his finances) will be “caught” / that I am / we are criminals.
I don’t have the worry of having to visit aging, ailing parents across the line. Mine are both gone — and in many ways (as awful as that sounds), I am glad for that fact. I hate the burden on my one sister who understands all this by my unrelenting discussion to her of me, her Canadian sister, and family’s US citizenship-based taxation issues. It is a maze and we are blindfolded and we don’t have a step-by-step best procedure that will work.
PS — I am one who would be most hesitant to again cross the US border with my Canadian passport and CLN, especially if my son were travelling with me. That he would be safer to cross the US border with his Canadian passport that shows his Canadian birthplace with someone else rather than with his mother who has a Canadian passport with a US birthplace makes me sick to my stomach. But that’s my perception — I would not feel safe in doing that with him and some nice border guard asking if I was his mother, then putting two and two together.
I’m so glad both of you — and I wish so many others — were tuned in to Isaac Brock. And, I’m so glad it’s here for me and my unresolvable anger.
For many the anger is worse than the tax issues. Somehow or other, one must learn to put the anger behind you. Sometime ago I wrote a post on this called: “Psychotherapy for U.S. citizens abroad“. Excerpts include:
Moe Levine (not that I ever met him) was considered to be one of America’s greatest trial lawyers. Although he died in 1974, his wisdom lives on his book (appropriate called) “Moe Levine on Trial Advocacy“. He (legend has it) was a master at delivering the closing statement in his jury trials. When arguing for a severely injured plaintiff he (according to the commentators of his time) would tell the jury (referring to a badly injured client):
“It’s not what you take from them it’s what you leave them with.”
In other words, the inability to live a normal life was worse than the injury itself. Leaving aside the financial costs, Obama/IRS tyranny has had a very serious effect on the lives of many U.S. expats. Few of them will ever forget the day they learned about these problems. One (of many) example is the story of Ambassador Jacobson’s 70 Year old grandmas” in Saskatchewan. (For an update to this see this comment.)
Suggestions for how to resolve and move beyond the anger …
How has this experience changed you as a person?
I do so hope that I will be able to ‘let go and move on’ and most definitely, I hope that I will be able to ‘resolve the anger’. I want my ‘old’ self back – the self who, for the most part, was able to enjoy life, accept the ups and downs, forgive others.
Life was not always kind – I buried a daughter when she was only a baby, I buried a husband in the prime of his life, when I was much too young to be widowed. I did persevere and get through these ‘curve balls’ that life through at me.
It is so difficult to describe the hurt and anger that I feel toward the country that I once called home. And rightly or wrongly, my anger toward the country, is also directed toward the people of that country. Logic tells me that I should not feel these emotions toward the people, but I do. And that just increases my anger.
I will soon have my 2nd appointment with the consulate in my quest for a backdated CLN. My hope is that perhaps, I will feel differently after that appointment or at least once I receive the CLN. Somehow though, I feel that I have been permanently changed and I may never get my ‘old’ self back. And that is too bad because I think I liked her better than me.
Hi, Tiger.
I agree — I sure liked the old me better than the one I am now. When I say that all of this has taken the joy from my life, that’s not an under-statement.
I absolutely know that my behaviour of isolating myself from friends to prevent this subject always coming up (usually at their initiation) — just a conversational question like ‘do you have your tax situation all cleared up now?’ leaves me reeling inside and I don’t answer it with a lot of finesse. I do know that is not normal, but I just would rather avoid such, what I perceive, minimization of the subject.
I do know that anger is an emotion that doesn’t accomplish much for anyone — but in my case, it keeps me fighting — not only for myself and my family, but for many others who don’t have a voice.
I only have one family member in the States that truly understands this and I hate that I have made her feel so bad about her country — I have no right to influence how she feels / make her feel guilty for her country. She tells me that anything that hurts me and my family hurts her so I have guilt about talking to my best friend / my sister.
I will get through this eventually — it’s like a rotten mood / bout of depression that I just have to deal with by myself with no one conjoling me out of it. The time it will take is not in the ‘normal’ range — so I feel like I’ve really turned into a crazy old bitter lady and yes, tiger, I too don’t like what I’ve become!
I am so glad that you are about to have your second / final appointment with the Vancouver US Consulate. I hope that brings a start to final resolution of all this for you. You’ve had too much grief in your life and now have had to contend with this long wait. You have much more important things to do in your life, including being that grandma that you are. I celebrate all announcements of relinquishments and renunciations reported here — but none more than I will yours.
Thanks USCitizenAbroad, for taking on this subject once again. I know you fully relate to how so many of us feel — and you have helped me and others considerably. I hate being such a wuss. And, I can’t say too many times, that Isaac Brock and the support and expertise of the people here have kept me sane. How dramatic that sounds. It is, however, true.
What is so frustrating about the US is that most people there can’t seem to understand why people in the rest of the world (including us expats) get angry at their country. Government and mass media propaganda there support the popular belief among homelanders that the US only acts unselfishly, with the best intentions, trying to help the rest of the world become more like the exceptionally wonderful model that the US provides. Most people there can’t see how clumsily and insensitively the US often acts in dealing with people in other countries. Baffled by anti-US anger from people in other countries, most just conclude, like G.W. Bush, “They hate us for our freedom.” Anger doesn’t get far when directed at such ignorant, insensitive people who think their culture and government are so nice. (Don’t get me wrong. Many individual people in the US are nice people, but they are a minority, and even they have trouble understanding our anger.)
It seems we can only vent our anger among ourselves — people who understand and share the reasons for our anger. I find some relief in humour expressed in sarcasm and ridicule, and I remind myself how fortunate I was to make a happy new life in Canada starting 45 years ago.
@ AnonAnon …. well said ! For long term ex-pats, citizenship-based taxation provides nothing in return other than never-ending misery. Long term ex-pats have little chance to remedy the situation because they are disenfranchised from the US legislative process. The Americans Abroad Caucus is not representation. Its members are not elected by ex-pats and it casts no votes in Congress in the interests of ex-pats. To live a normal healthy life, ex-pats have no real possibility other than to renounce or relinquish US citizenship.
The more ex-pats who go through with renunciation/relinquishment, the louder the message will be heard
I am glad to have an opportunity to talk about these issues, as they have been on my mind.
My situation is unlike most others. I was born in the US and enjoyed a pretty conventional childhood. But it was the time of the Vietnam War, which loomed over my life from high school, through four years of university and two years of grad study. At age twenty-three I was a fugitive, an indicted felon, travelling to Canada under an assumed name.
Aside from occasional nightmares (literal meaning) in the early years, I have had a very good life here in Canada. I had a professional career, and I have a wonderful woman as wife. I am now retired.
So on the one hand, my experience has taught me what to expect of the US. No scales on my eyes. Not for a long time. On the other hand, it revives old feelings of betrayel when the US asserts, “We can reach across any borders and take everything from you, your savings and pension to be sure, but with that your life as well.”
That being said, I now feel much less fear than at the beginning, and with that much less anger. I think the change is in fact quite rational, as I now feel that the US has little chance of confiscating my life. This is what I especially want to share.
My reasons are in part particular to my own situation, i.e. Canadian citizen, living in Canada, and over 65.
First, IF there is an IGA, it will be along the lines of the UK agreement, which seems to exempt pensions and retirement plans. This would exempt my principal assets. (Selfish on my part, perhaps, but also the reality)
BUT there a lot of legal reasons why such an agreement might be illegal: the Bank Act, The Personal Information and Protection of Personal Data Act (PIPEDA), the Income Tax Act. And maybe unconstitutional (see Peter Hogg’s letter).
If its illegal for the federal government, it will be illegal for Canadian FFIs.
Further, pensions and credit unions are regulated mostly at the provincial level, and the federal government is not competent to speak for the provinces. As any Canadian can tell you, the provinces cannot agee on the colour of the sky.
And further, Flaherty has promised that the Canadian Revenue Agency will NOT collect US fines unrelated to taxes owing.
Beyond that, I cannot see 100s of thousands of Canadians losing their homes and sleeping under bridges, not if they refuse to submit.
So I no longer live in fear, as intended by the US. And I live less in anger than in grim determination. Perhaps my views may help you move away from anger to a more productive frame of mind.
One last bit of advice: blogs like IBS can be useful for sharing information and escaping our isolation. But they can also serve to reinforce negativiy. Don’t spend too much time here! Go for a walk, hug your cat, do a good deed without being asked.
Leb wohl!
nice for Canada. I don’t see Sweden putting up any fights. 26, 31, its all the same to them
I just posted a comment under Em in the Particpants section which is somewhat related to “moving on”. It is mostly an update and terribly wordy. It might be of some interest to others like my husband and I. We are DIY filers because we really haven’t access to or inclination to use expert tax preparers.
@NorthernShrike,
I like your comment, and agree with your viewpoint.
Even if Canada signs an IGA, there will be ways for ‘US persons’ to deal with the situation. In the meantime, thinking about IT can easily become an obsession, and at that point not much productive happens. I think I will take your advice and go hug my cat.
@NorthernShrike
You offer much-needed perspective and wisdom – especially about the need to just get away from all this every once in a while. I agree. Sometimes I’m simply too busy with work or family to fully participate, which is a good thing. Other times it’s frankly quite intentional, which is also a good thing. I recommend that we all try to take regular, therapeutic jail-breaks from our particular prisons of long-term mental captivity.
As we mark the passing of ten years since the beginning of the last decade’s most stellar example of pointless American hubris and collective self-delusion, it is worth repurposing the catch-phrase of that era: if we let the American government worm its way into our very souls, then the terrorists have already won.
Thanks to USCitizenAbroad for reminding us again to guard against too much fear and anger.
We will have lost over 50,000 dollars after all this is finally sorted; and I, personally, will have actually lost around 150,000 dollars because of gifting around a lot of my savings to my spouse to help protect it from the U.S. possibly trying to grab it.
It has caused me a lot of resentment because my spouse has been frightened and has consequently essentially abandoned me by squirrelling all his money away while l’be had to face the full costs plus trauma of all this.
I deeply resent this because he has a secure pension while I struggle in a zero hours contract with no guaranteed hours. If none of this had happened, I would have probably been able to retire in my early 50s. Now, I’ll have to wait till my late 60s just like most people. It was as though all my goals and hard work were for nought.
I felt abandoned when I felt the most vulnerable but I can sort of understand that he was just trying to look out for himself. I overheard him saying to someone not to marry and American : ‘(.
Anyway, the point I’ve learned from all this is that I can no longer take anything for granted and that I will have to always keep my wits about me. I’ve decided to accept that I’ll be working for another 20 years instead of 5-7 years; I’ve decided to be less focussed on money and instead live more simply; going forward, I’m just going to put most of anything saved into a ststraightforward savings account instead of complicated investments. I am going to take better care of my health and go to church more.
I’m trying not to be bitter and move forward; at least I know that if the IRS wipes me out that my husband will be able to provide Mr with a base; he’s not generous financially but believe if things had become absolutely desperate that he (and also my mother) would have helped which is all I really need to know.
It’s also taught me about taking personal responsibility and accepting the consequences of not keeping better informed of my filing and reporting obligations plus even potentisl double taxation to the U.S. Caveat Emptor!!
I had naively assumed that my filing requirements were mmerely nominal and that I was allowed to make use of locally tax-advsntaged saving and investing. I feel like it was almost entrapment to not have been better informed by the IRS. Even the British could have better explained why U.S. persons should avoid their mutual funds. Nothing has ever been mentioned in the Money section of the papers or the local investing magazines. It seems we’re really on our own with all these potential traps. It’s why I’m going to be much more careful going forward and rely on a financial planner to advise me about any further investing in spite of the extra costs.
Learning from all this that no one, not even my husband, owes me a living; I need to be able and willing to fully pull my own weight. Making asssumptions is dangerous. All I want is peace of mind and to feel safe.
“Don’t marry an American”. Is this what our government intended for us, to be pariahs in the world? This is completely insane! I feel terrible for you, monalisa1776. My husband is a US citizen through his father so we are dealing with this together, although he said that if I didn’t have the mark of my American birthplace putting a spotlight on us, he would have done nothing. He did admit however that the situation could have eventually caught up with him, so it was better to deal with it now and renounce together.
Just when my anger begins to subside, I get re-traumatized by new accounts of how USP’s are getting skewered by their own country, the one that claims to be the world’s champion of freedom! Things will never, ever, ever get better until the citizenship based taxation dragon is slayed!
@monalisa,
as we share more of what and how this is affecting us and our families, it is very sad to come into the understanding of how the US status has inserted itself between us and our non-US spouse and family members. The US has so much to answer for. Particularly on the issue of the FBARs being required on jointly held or non-ownership accounts – in which the other or true owner is NOT a USperson, and has NO reason to report, and no economic connection or responsibility to the US. Essentially, the US forces us to betray an unwilling spouse, or forces an unwilling spouse to help us, by exposing their finances and accounts to identity theft and data storage in the databases the US is compiling – with no evidence of wrongdoing on our part or theirs, no recourse, and no control over how the data is used and shared. This is unconscionable and extortionate. They hold us ransom, and thus hold our non-US family in thrall as well. Our non-US spouses have been exposed to risk because of the US, and that places a strain on any life together. The US is wholly to blame, not you and the rest of us. If the UK had suddenly done the same, the places would have been reversed. Our vows said ‘for better or for worse’.
That said, currently I would advise anyone I know not to marry a US citizen or ‘UStaxable person’ either. And to think twice before going to the US and becoming entangled in US taxable status. And have advised young family here to renounce now, or understand fully the consequences for themselves and their non-US spouse and potential spouses – now, rather than waiting to become more entangled.
What makes the US think this won’t have significant consequences? If they alienate not only the US person, but their nonUS family, they have just created or solidified anti-US impulses that ripple on past just ourselves. In my case, that is myself plus extended Canadian family. Multiply that by all the > 1million of us in Canada – especially once FATCA really hits or they try to implement it here. Already, those of us who know about this divested, or refuse to hold any US assets, and our non-US family members as well.
I’ve warned several non-US persons not to stay in the US too long, and not to invest in US property or retire there, or to investigate their risks and limit them.
We’ll be voting where we live, and where we have non-US citizenships, and definitely this is a vote determiner for me and mine.
There may be a delay in the consequences – as it takes time to extricate from the US clutches, but it is coming – that is certain.
I’m not an American. I was born in Edmonton, Alberta. My mother was Canadian (born and raised in Vancouver) and my father was Japanese who later obtained his Canadian citizenship in his 70s (long after his working career). If I had married a Canadian, I would probably be just about as ignorant of the ramifications of FATCA as any other Canadian; and probably just as ignorant too.
I met my American spouse over the internet in October 1999. She just happened across a couple of my posts in a creative writing Yahoo Group and we struck up a conversation online which blossomed into a relationship. We decided to get married in August of 2000 (As of this August we will have been together 13 years). In doing so, my mother-in-law (her mother) let go of her daughter and a close relationship that they had (just the two of them) for over 18 years so that my wife could have her happiness and somehow make a life for herself. At the time my wife thought that she could visit her mother every so often, but now, with the United States as paranoid, vindictive and money-hungry as it is, it is unlikely that my wife will ever see her mother ever again.
For the majority of my life, I had rose-colored glasses on when it came to the United States. I thought they were the best country in the world. I was a military aviation afficionado and the United States had all the best aircraft. Hell, I said to my parents that “I think I was born on the wrong side of the border.” I wanted to join the United States Navy and fly F-14s and F/A-18s off carrier decks and the only opportunity I was going to get to do that was to join the USN. I think of the ramifications of any United States action on others across the world. I felt like the United States was in the right – they could do no wrong. Frankly, I was just a blind American Apologist wreathed in Canadian citizenship.
Why am I relating this? Because that illustrates just how drastic a turnaround my thinking has taken. The rose-colored glasses have come off, the enmity has arisen and there is no putting the malevolent anti-American genie back in the lamp. To me, much older and less naive; the younger me was stupid; like a cattle willingly led to slaughter. Now the wellbeing of my family is what is now most important. I am less willing to extend my hand out to anyone south of the border who still maintains their rose-colored glasses on about the United States. I call the US government thieves and anyone who apologizes for them is a thief as well as they are benefiting off the labours of my wife, who as far as I am concerned, only owes a duty of care to our children. As far as I am concerned, the United States has just declared financial war on my family and I will do everything in my power to defend against it.
Our four children are held hostage by this whole FATCA mess due to the citizenship transmitted to them at their birth in Canada by my American spouse. One of them will always be held hostage by the United States, due to his inability to understand the ramifications of renouncing, which means he will have the US tax leach sucking at his financial dealings for the rest of his life. My wife and my other three children (the two oldest sons and my youngest daughter) will be able to slip the bonds placed on them by FATCA by renouncing at the age of majority, but what this will do to them is that they cannot get summer jobs when they turn teenage, giving them less of a work record than their fully Canadian school mates which means that they are less employable and will have no disposable income of their own during the summer that they can spend on themselves. I will always have to hold the financial end of things until such time as they renounce their United States citizenship.
My wife, unfortunately, became the breadwinner in the family after I had an accident on my mother’s back steps in 2006 where I fell and injured my back and ended up having chronic back problems which have managed to persist to this day. So with the US government sucking at the financial teat, it not only drains us of any savings, it puts our entire family at jeopardy. I am trying my hardest to get a wildlife photography business going, but in order to do that, it takes a $15,000 investment in a lens, a tripod/gimbal support and teleconverters. I’ve opted to not take the “social security net” or go on welfare. I’ve always been a self-sufficient sort and the only help that I need is the help of my wife to get this going. And I will not let the US government drain us to the point where another stream of income is impossible. I will outright declare an individual war on the United States before I let it come to that.
My wife is quietly thinking of renouncing her citizenship once she gets her Canadian citizenship in the pipeline – we just haven’t had the money to put aside for that yet until May of this year. My oldest son hates the United States for what it is doing to his mother. My mother-in-law is stuck in the United States on Medicare and unable to take matters into her own hands and move up to Canada (mainly a) because we don’t have the money or the income requirement fulfilled to sponsor her. b) because my wife’s mother would be uprooting herself from everyone she’s ever known).
The FATCA Act/FBAR sanction are America’s declaration of outright financial war on foreign sovereignty and any government who will sell sovereignty down the river does not deserve to be in power. My family comes first and I will put my family before any government.
I don’t care that there are people out of work in the United States. I don’t care that 1 in 3 Americans are on welfare and can’t get a job. I really don’t give a flying **** that Obama said that “everyone is in this together…blah blah blah, we owe our fellow man”. The only damned thing my wife owes is her taxes to Canada who gave her an education, and a life above poverty and is continuing to do so and to her family, to provide them with a roof over their head, and food on the table. And any president of a foreign nation who would say that doesn’t have the cojones to ante up and get off the entitlement wagon like I have. I don’t live on welfare. I may be jobless right now, but my wife is the only one who should support me and I am making moves to even remove myself from that by developing my own business. If one cannot fend for themselves as a family or as a nation and not rely on government entitlements; or spend wisely and develop an infrastructure that will not crumble in times of hardship, then there is no reason why others should support you. Entitling yourself to other people’s hard earned income by making laws to siphon their income is not the answer.
To say I’m enraged…is pretty much an understatement. I want to see the financial dissolution of the United States. I want to see them crumble as an entity. Frankly, like the terrorists, I want to see them crumble as a world power. Am I going to commit an overt act against the United States. No, but you can bet that I’ll be sitting there on the sidelines watching the United States crumble like a poorly built house of cards and laughing at its dissolution. The United States has declared financial war on my family and when it does that, I’ve declared WAR on it. The United States has essentially tore at the very fabric of what constitutes this family (it’s financial and emotional well-being and security) and that to me, is outright war!!!
@Bubble, @Badger and @The_Animal, I know my spouse has his heart in the right place; it’s just that he is instinctively looking out for himself. He would never let me go hungry or out on the street, though in saying that, I think if I had had to go into OVDI that we would have wound up divorcing because it would have bankrupted me.
I think why he’s so pissed off is because I have Asperger’s Syndrome so am not completely 100%; my intellect is all there but I lack social skills and consequently sometimes get patronized at work as almost ‘special needs’. My manager can be highly critical of my appearance and behaviour. He means well though can be a bit of a bully at times. But this is life in the jungle. I’m having to stand on my own feet in a sometimes less-than understanding world.
I belong to a heritage organization which I’m very passionate about; I love the dotty eccentric characters there and feel more at home in that environment; had my financial plans not been so scuppered up by all this IRS fiasco, I was on course to be become financially secure enough to reduce my hours or even retire early (as my spouse also got to do); I could thus have enjoyed the freedom to volunteer with this organization and enjoy much less stress in my life.
BUt with everything that has happened, it has set me back at least ten years in my financial planning. Plus, I’m STILL not out of the woods yet. I often wonder if because I’ve been so open on here that my IP address might even be traced and the IRS could make a point of auditing me, especially now that I’ve renounced!! I realize that I’m probably bordering on paranoia but it does often worry me that I’m making a risk to be so open on here.
What’s even more disconcerting is that my accounting firm has admitted that they believe my case was anomalous enough, due to the large number of PFICs, that the IRS will have probably red flagged my returns and will be aware of my situation, plus may have even put two and two together when I’ve described my case on here, as I’m now aware that the IRS is probably reading this site.
All I can think is that I have been completely truthful and that it would be counterproductive for them to turn me into a poster child, especially when I feel caught in the headlights and that I had no other option but to make a disclosure and hope for mercy and common sense. I’ve lived in the UK now for almost twenty five years and have spent all my adult life in Britain. I am permanently settled, had dual nationality for several years and now have recently renounced; I hope I can just be fully British going forward.
Unlike Animal, I still feel a bittersweet love for America but agree with Calgary411 that the U.S. has been like an abusive spouse. I may not have been directly abused by the IRS but nonetheless will be stuck in limbo till all my SOLs have run out. I should be through the danger period by the end of next year though could still conceivably be audited as late as late 2017. It’s not forever, of course, but it’s still a long time of uncertainty. It’s wearing me down.
I’ve had to let go of a lot of my dreams. I won’t be able to relax with my husband when he officially retires in three years; I probably won’t even be able to relax for the remainder of his life because he has health problems and will probably not reach a great age. He’s fifteen years older than me so will probably be widowed before I’ll be able to put my feet up. All I can think is that I still have my health and that maybe everything that’s happened has been a sort of spiritual catharsis. I have learned to let go of any sense of entitlement; I have learned to count my blessings in spite of my setbacks; I have learned that even though my spouse may be stingy in some ways, that it’s quite understandable given what’s happened. I am grateful that he has been there for me even though he has removed reduced his economic support.
There is certainly more to life than money; I am happy enough to live very simply; but what will always grate me is of how screwed I feel towards the system as it is; not just the IRS, but the accountants and advisors who I will have had to spend over $30,000 on. I still don’t know what my total IRS bill will have been but would imagine it will well into the teens. I will thus have had to spend close to $50,000 in total. I know that’s not a fortune any more nowadays, but when I earn less than $25,000, it’s still quite a lot. The money I have has mostly come from my spouse from purely British sources; he was originally trying to protect me in case anything happened to him so had invested in my name for me. We had been oblivious to PFIC problems, plus oblivious to the IRS’s not acknowledging the tax-free status of ISA accounts (similar to Canadian RESP’s).
I don’t believe in being bitter but have learned that things are not always what they seem and that I need to keep my wits about me. Perhaps because I will have had to lower my expectations, I will also learn to be content with less, so maybe that’s a blessing in disguise. 😉
I am aware that in many ways, both Bubble and Animal are in a worse situation because they are essentially still stuck. At least I am finally starting to get things in motion to hopefully resolve my situation within four years. I feel so sorry for Bubble that she still doesn’t have a clue what’s going on concerning her OVDI submission and of how she’s been messed about without any communication; and I feel sorry for Animal in that they lack the wherewithal to shell out for the inevitable costs to come into compliance.
The only thing I think is that at least with Animal’s situation, that they are definitely minnows; I honestly don’t think the IRS will be targeting them. I believe that his wife could still safely go and visit her mother. But this is just my opinion. It doesn’t take away from the unfair principles of the thing though.
It sucks that Bubble has been hit with a substantial tax bill for the sale of their home which is free of capital gains in Canada. Not fair at all. But life ain’t fair. At least we still have our arms and legs…
@ The_Animal
You don’t appear ready to move on anytime soon and I know I’m not. I may have spent most of my life being the quiet little mouse in the corner but I have had my moments of roaring too and I’m getting ready to take things up a notch if Canada signs a FATCA IGA with the USA. Someone mentioned it would be a good idea to start preparing the court briefs sooner rather than later for those inevitable lawsuits against the government after an IGA. Any lawyer could find all the ammo he/she needs right here at Brock in what now must be many thousands of pages of posts and comments.
@Em, I feel resigned to the IGAs, myself; Britain is almost certainly going to play poodle to Obama. In fact, I don’t see the UK offering me any protection if the U.S. decide to play hardball. They take the line of least resistance. I will be writing to that MP that was referred to me though, as nothing ventured, nothing gained. But maybe I am a cynic. I am not so naive as to believe that just because the U.S. can be predatory that the UK isn’t. The UK government as a lot to answer for as well.
I’m just trying to survive in this jungle we live in. I just want a quiet life. I finally came to the conclusion that renouncing was the most practical way of dealing with all this, especially once I realized that I had my family’s blessing. I realize that i shouldn’t need their permission but am old-fashioned enough that if they had ‘forbidden’ it, I would have dutifully borne my burden stoically. But thank God, they finally comprehended that I simply couldn’t afford to maintain both citizenships, especially when I concluded that it would be impossible for me to be absolutely 100% sure that I can be COMPLETELY compliant.
The foreign grantor trust ambiguity was the deal breaker for me. I could get out of PFICs and close my cash ISAs; but I could not legally close my pension scheme that is technically a defined contribution vs defined benefit plan; the first type is NOT officially recognized by the IRS and could be argued to be a foreign trust and could thus require annual 3520 forms which would have double my accounting bill which is already well over $2000 per annum; on my level of wages, I simply CANNOT afford those accounting fees for the rest of my life. :’/
Em, I’d love to hear more about the potential for a class action lawsuit/court case against the Canadian government. You can bet I’ll be wanting to join in on that. I also want to “hang the traitors in-government” as lamp post decorations along Front Street in Ottawa for selling out Canada to the United States. Since they are planning to sign an IGA, they should be treated as traitors to Canada.
@ monalisa
Just because the UK government is a US poodle (the Canadian government is too by the way) doesn’t mean we the people have to be obedient little poodle pups and roll over to have our privacy snatched. I am really hoping there will be lawsuits here in Canada if there is a FATCA IGA signed and that we the people will prevail (providing our judiciary still has a few good men and women). You do what you can do, keep fighting and if remember if FATCA gets blocked somewhere it could well fail everywhere.
@True, true 🙂
Make like Oleo:
Poodles are temperamental little beasts. That guy is lucky he didn’t get his hand bitten off. But then again, it would be nice if the IRS’s hands got bitten off by expatriates.
I have not been a US citizen for most of my life. Until 2011, the US was the country next door and, in the context of my life, a good neighbour, but then it tried it’s darndest to ruin my life and my family’s.
Ask the average person (almost) anywhere in the world, “What’s more important to you — your family or someone else’s country?” It’s a no-brainer. Not sure the Americans understand that.
Americans don’t understand that, Pacifica777, From the time Americans are born, they are indoctrinated in this: “God, Country; Family” – in that order. When they recite the Pledge of Allegiance and it’s repeated over and over again, it’s brain-washing. I believe I said somewhere that the United States is the world’s biggest CULT…and it takes a hell of a lot of mental strength to break free of it.
Even people who aren’t American can recite the Pledge of Allegiance – it stands out to every single person in the world. The only difference is the reaction to it: “I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands. One nation, Under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” You say that every day in school for 365 days an year/366 on leapyears, for 12 years, and think of how brainwashed you become. Cue robotic voice “We said it everyday for 12 years, must be true…”