29 thoughts on “Patriotism, disloyalty, renunciation and the relation among them”

1. It’s been that way since George W. Bush was president, and with America lying her way into the Iraq War. Anyone that basically took a stance against that big lie was seen as unpatriotic, against the president, against America, etc…. I mean, how dare us to question him? Don’t you know we’re at war?

   Nothing has really changed in that respect once Obama took office. Only the players are different. You have one side going all out to denigrate the president, while the other side goes all out to denigrate those that denigrate the president. At this point, I’m already wondering what’s stopping these people from going at each other with weapons, except to guess that it’s a ruse by the real powers that be to keep the ignorant masses divided.

   But at any rate, I would say that it’s already happening, since around 2003 or so.

2. I think the perception of patriotism changed completely after 9/11. Dubya said “you’re either with us or against us.” I read that as applying to citizens as well as what he meant (other countries). This is why many homelanders, in addition to the usual biases, would never accept our point of view. Just my $0.02.

3. @nobledreamer

   Exactly, and in the US these days, since in the state apparently never does wrong, and no other opinion will be tolerated, I may as well be against them at this point. But how could any sane person be for that statist crap, anyway?

4. I won’t retain US citizenship if the cost of it exceeds reason, which it clearly has. In my case, my loyalties are with family and securing a future that’s free of the threat of what the USG can do to harm me via my citizenship. Fool me once, shame on you USG, fool me twice shame on me.
   Patriotism is overrated and often BLIND.

5. I moved to Sydney Australia in 2007 and formally renounced my citizenship in 2012. It took 3 months to receive my CLN from the date I renounced. The reasons I gave to the consulate were as follows:

   It is now evident without a doubt in my mind that an Ideological Subversion of a Fascist/Socialist nature has been, and currently is well underway whereupon our rights and freedoms are slowly being taken away one by one. There is more than enough evidence to support my claim. Start by reading Carroll Quigley’s Tragedy and Hope and you will see how these elitist insiders have infiltrated the US system, funded communism, terrorism, and gained control of the banking system, media, every single industrial complex, and they are slowly and patiently herding us to a one world socialist government. I set out to disprove it, and surprisingly failed miserably.

   Dr. Quigley had insider access to the Council on Foreign Relations and the Tri-Lateral Commission and openly supported these people. They tried to take his book out of print, but you can still get copies. Congressman Larry McDonald was also on to this Ideological Subversion, but he was murdered when the Soviets shot his plane down. Interestingly he was attempting to get congress to investigate the CFR and Tri-Lateral Commission. The were funding the Soviets after all. Dr. Ron Paul also talked openly about all of this as well. There is so much evidence out there about what is being done to us I am amazed at how easily people are manipulated Edward Bernay’s style. It really is scary.

   Anyway, the Consulate just looked at me like I was nuts, asked me if I was taking any medication, when I said no they approved and recommended the approval of my renunciation to the Department of State.

   “Americans are a colonized people. Their government represents the colonizing powers: Wall Street, the Israel Lobby, the Military/Security Complex, Agribusiness, Pharmaceuticals, Energy, Mining, and Timber interests.” –Dr. Paul Craig Roberts.

6. Welcome Ryan and thanks for sharing your thoughts and story. Would you like to post your renunciation information on the Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their consulate meetings)? We are keeping track of as many relinquishments/renunciations as we can as well as have records about the various consulates/embassies around the world. You can click on the link on the upper right hand side of this page, just under the Subscribe pane. If you prefer, one of our editors can help you with this.Hope to hear more from you!

7. @ Ryan
   Welcome to Brock. I have travelled down a similar path of awareness as you have and I just want to say how gutsy it was of you to make that submission at your renunciation. Given the success of the Bernay method of tricking the masses into a selected mindset there probably wasn’t much chance your submission would be taken seriously. Fortunately they didn’t stamp DENIED across your application which is what they did to Kenneth O’Keefe, a political activist. You got the CLN and that’s the main thing. Now you are free to move about the world without the weight of US citizenship to drag you down.

8. Nobledreamer, I will be glad to post my renunciation experience into the consulate directory. Not a problem at all. I found the Americans at the Sydney consulate to be professional and polite. Although I was initially offended by the medication questions, I do understand in hindsight why they were asked. And you will certainly hear more from me as I am proud of this groups moral and courageous stand against what I think we all feel is tyranny in its most pure form.

   Em, thank you for your kind words. I will certainly say it is always great to hear from, and be amongst the awakened. My awakening was very rough at first, before I came to grips with how deep this goes. I was a different sort of patriot two years ago. Having served two tours in Iraq under the US flag you can have an educated guess at what sort of patriot I was. I have dedicated the last two years of my life studying this agenda and those who currently hold the torch and are driving it foreword. It’s just my nature to go hard or go home. This is serious stuff.

   The one and only thing that gives me comfort these days is hearing from and knowing that others like yourself are out there. We live in a very interesting and unprecedented time, and it will be very interesting to see how all of this unfolds. It’s good to be here and I will look into Kenneth O’keefe. I just felt it necessary to be honest, and I had even brought plenty of documents to verify and back up what I said. It was not necessary to show them unfortunately. These people are on record and grow bolder with their plans everyday. It’s actually not hard to point out their clear intentions. Their symbols are everywhere, and have always been everywhere. Our leaders are very strange indeed. For those who have no idea what I am talking about, don’t believe a word of what I write. I challenge you to disprove everything I have written and will write in the future. If you are reading this you are probably already on the right path though. Again, I am pleased to be here and hope to contribute in a positive way for as long as I can.

9. @Ryan from Sydney, I love your statement and I think that the response is cute. It’s cute how the mental instability accusation is made against the unique individual non-lemming in a “free” society where people are supposed to have the right and freedom to think and believe as they wish. I’d say that you made your point! 🙂

10. Of course they have to make the accusation of mental instability, because you must be crazy to leave the USA and renounce your US citizenship, yes?

    I’m not sure what I’m going to say at the consulate when it becomes my time, but I could start as follows….

    Since 9/11/2001, the United States had made the choice to abandon those principles that used the make the country great. It has chosen to trade away its freedoms for a false sense of security, and it has collectively lost its mind in trying to figure out why it still doesn’t feel secure, all while the government has grown more tyrannical. Meanwhile, I left the US in search of the vary same freedoms and liberties that I’ve lost at home, and for my effort, I’ve been harassed with intimidating forms, have been persecuted with the tyranny of FATCA and citizenship based taxation, been referred to as a criminal tax cheater by homelander politicians scoring populist sentiment from the brainwashed masses, have had to protect my foreign spouse’s finances from the prying eyes of the US government, and have been threatened with draconian fines and prison terms in the event I may make a mistake on forms that I don’t even understand, and that homelanders don’t even have to fill out!

11. @mjh49783, that’s a nice statement. I didn’t give any reason. I originally thought about making a statement when I renounced, but then I figured that, since current law defines renunciations as being irreversible, any statement that I might make would have no impact on my life no impact on US politics. Yet, if it is posted here, then it will have some meaning. 🙂

12. @Mjh and @Swiss, I don’t know what I’m going to say either when it comes my time. I’m not including any written statement; this is naturally frustrating because there are so many things I’d like to rant about but believe it could be used against me so feel it’s safer not to even offer any reason unless they specifically ask; and if they ask, keep it short and sweet: something along the lines of not wanting divided loyalties and, if pressed, that I want to simplify my life. Not mention anything about taxes or even compliance issues because it may only come back to haunt me at some subsequent date if the climate deteriorates even further….all they need to know is that it’s a completely voluntary decision on my part and that I’m of sound mind.

    I suspect that they already have a good idea why most of us are leaving. They didn’t even ask me for a reason during my initial telephone interview. But best not to mention the gorilla in the room….

13. @monalisa1776, @SwissPinoy

    Yeah, I think ultimately, what I’ll end up saying in the end is simply that I do not believe in serving two masters, and that because of that reason, plus my building a new life in Canada, means that relinquishing US citizenship is simply the right thing for me to do. I know what my true reasons are, and so do the people here. It’s not necessary for me to tell the US consulate my true reasons as it won’t change anything, anyway. The consulate employees are basically just paper pushing stiffs, anyway. Why take my anger out at them, when I can approach them with a calm and rational attitude?

14. @Mjh, exactly. Plus, I don’t know if they jot down notes concerning outspoken opinions expressed by people renouncing. I almost sense that they already realise why the numbers of expatriations of minnows are surging but that it’s still taboo for anyone to openly discuss it. Anything could be used against you, even if it was so they can twist things around and try to obstruct you by claiming you’re crazy or being pressured by someone to go through with it.

    Wouldn’t surprise me if they increasingly try to make it more awkward so as to put people off, especially if the numbers literally shoot through the roof. I even wonder if mentioning about ‘not wanting to serve two master could be construed to be about taxes! It’s actually the very same reason I want to get out but fear that to overtly state that is a little too close to the wind.

    So much for freedom of speech…I don’t believe in being bitter though; I’ve got to look upon all this as like a hopefully amicable divorce. I am breaking a bond but nonetheless hope I can continue to enjoy a friendly relationship with the United States, albeit as a non-resident alien.

15. I also just want to point out that I’d be a little nervous about being too open in case they were trying to trip people up into admitting anything that would enable them to apply the Reed Amendment, to make examples of minnows expatriating for what are considered unacceptable reasons. Thus seems a matter of self-preservation not to be too direct, even though it’s probably more about compliance burdens then taxes. It’s just that the U.S. government will like to lump it all together to do with tax avoidance which is the great taboo…after all, it’s not just the IRS, but rather, all the cross-border specialists who will want to retain us as cash cows, *lol*

16. Prior to renouncing in Jan of 2012, my recollection is that most of us agreed that since we were not required to say/write anything about our reasons, it was probably better to say nothing. I didn’t end up saying nothing because the fellow I had was a reasonable human being and we did discuss it (FBAR) in a round-about way. His opinion was that most probably felt more Canadian as they had lived here so long and he also mentioned that citizenship had it’s “responsibilities.”

    You may want to consider the following from the DOS site which discusses what the consular official is supposed to write/report about his/her impressions from the interview.

    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/115645.pdf

    7 FAM 1261 INTRODUCTION
    (CT:CON-407; 06-29-2012)

    a) Consular officers must inform potential renunciants of the consequences of renunciation and must keep a detailed record of all interactions with the individual as well as all actions taken in furtherance of the renunciation.

    7 FAM 1262.4 Documentation of Renunciation
    (CT:CON-394; 02-09-2012)

    i)You must keep a detailed written record of every interaction with the renunciant, and, following
    the renunciation, must provide a signed Consular Officer’s Opinion to CA/OCS/ACS. This opinion
    should include the consular officer’s assessment of the renunciant’s state of mind and the reasons
    given, if any, for desiring to renounce. Such opinions might note if there appeared to be family
    pressure to renounce, if the individual was likely renouncing for tax purposes, etc. The opinion
    should also note if the renunciant displays animosity or has spoken threateningly towards the
    United States. See 7 FAM Exhibit 1226 for a sample Consular Officer Opinion.

    7 FAM 1266 RENUNCIATION AND TAXATION
    (CT:CON-394; 02-09-2012)
    a. If a would-be renunciant indicates a desire to renounce U.S. citizenship to avoid income tax liability, you should inform the person that:
    (1) Renunciation may not exempt him or her from U.S. income taxation; and
    (2) If the Department of Homeland Security determines that the renunciation is motivated by tax avoidance purposes, the individual will be found inadmissible to the United States under Section 212(a)(10)(E) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA 212(a)(10)(E), 8 U.S.C 1182(a)(10)(E)), as amended.

17. @Nobledreamer, what you’ve just explained is why I wouldn’t be surprised if the Reed Amendment eventually starts being routinely enforced (especially on covered Expats). It’s why it’s a risky decision for anyone who still might need to continue being able to visit the United States.

18. It’s none of their damned business why you want to renounce. When I did, they didn’t ask and I didn’t say one word about it. If they do ask, you can simply say it’s a personal matter and there’s nothing they can do to make you say more about it. It doesn’t have anything to do with your right to renounce, so don’t let them make you think it does!

19. @Not amused, I agree that it’s better to not volunteer why when it could be used against you. I believe they already realise that most minnows owe hardly, if any, tax anyway and that they’re expatriating mainly avoid all the bureaucracy.

    I won’t owe tax going forward but will still need to rely on expensive accountants and advisers to safely stay compliant; the extent of the record-keeping and burdensome reporting required each year plus the complete loss of privacy via FATCA is why I want out; I’ve lived for many many years in my adopted country and have made my life there; it’s now home. I will still retain a deep affection (if exasperation ) for the U.S. but have decided it’s better not to have divided loyalties.

20. @monalisa….stay the course, remember for long term ex-pats, citizenship-based taxation provides nothing in return other than never-ending misery.
    Long term ex-pats have little chance to remedy the situation because they are disenfranchised from the US legislative process. The Americans Abroad Caucus is not representation. Its members are not elected by ex-pats and it casts no votes in Congress in the interests of ex-pats.To live a normal healthy life, ex-pats have no real possibility other than to renounce or relinquish US citizenship. The more ex-pats who go through with renunciation/relinquishment, the louder the message will be heard

21. @Mike, many thanks for your kind words and encouragement! I have come to the same conclusion and just want a clean though amicable break. I used to always believe the U.S. were the good guys; now I’m just trying to protect myself and my NRA spouse from a potentially predatory government; We just want to be able to lead a normal life where we live.

    I’ve learned that dual citizenship is not practical.

22. @monalisa….. see the whole process as self defense but stay the course and yes it realy seems that dual citizenship has become a threat rather than an asset as I originally thought !

23. @Mike, God Bless you.

24. Mike Tarantes –

    Long term ex-pats have little chance to remedy the situation because they are disenfranchised from the US legislative process.

    Escapees from US-personhood have found the ultimate remedy because they no longer subscribe to the bunkum that US legislative process is anything other than an incubator of tools of torture and mechanisms of madness. Sequester that! Sauve qui peut.

25. @monalisa1776

    In my opinion, dual citizenship with the US is certainly not feasible, nor is it desirable for me to have.