I wanted to post this fact situation and generate some thoughts on how this problem can be solved.
Facts – Altered slightly to protect their identities:
Financial Assets: Last week I met with a couple in their 50s. They have been married about 25 years. They have lived in Canada all of their married lives. They have two children. The older is graduating from University this year. The younger is in her third year of high school (expectation that she will go on to University). It is not clear to me what is the citizenship status of the children. But, I think (since the US born mother lived in the US until the age of 18 and then moved to Canada) that they are both US citizens. If the children are US citizens I don’t think the US has ever been notified that they exist. The couple own (free and clear) a home (in both their names) with an approximate value of 1.4 million. They paid $245,000 for the home when purchased. They each have an RRSP. The husband’s value $450,000 and the wife value $200,000. They also have a brokerage account consisting primarily of Canadian mutual funds. The account is in the husband’s name (but both parties acknowledge that the account is jointly owned). The wife claims that she had some kind of signing authority (power of attorney perhaps) over the brokerage account (not sure whether she still does in view of the husband’s reaction to Mr. FBAR).
Citizenship status: The wife was born in the US She moved to Canada at the age of 18 to attend University where she met her Canadian husband. She has lived in Canada ever since. She became a Canadian citizen around 2000. Both children were born in Canada and have always lived in Canada. The wife has always filed US tax returns and believes that she is up-to-date and accurate with her U.S. taxes (is it possible for a US person to be completely tax compliant?). She always filed as a “married person” and simply noted that her husband was a NRA (Non Resident Alien). (Meaning that the IRS knows that she has an alien husband.) She doesn’t know what an 8891 RRSP form is, but since her taxes have been prepared by a U.S. tax professional I assume that she has filed the 8891. I don’t know whether she filed a form 8938. She had NOT been filing her FBARs. But, upon learning of them she filed 6 years and wrote the usual reasonable cause letter. She is NOT expecting further difficulties over the FBAR issue. But, the family accounts were disclosed to the IRS which enraged the husband. What happened at the point of the FBAR discovery and the fact that she filed the FBARs, was that her husband simply refused to have any more joint accounts with her. (As she put it: “All hell broke loose in my marriage.”) She is nervous about this because it has destabilized a fundamental assumption of their marriage – i.e. that family was run from a family/joint account. This is causing her great anxiety. Her husband will NOT allow her signing authority over any financial account that includes his money. This is a big problem and is related to the next problem.
Employment History:
Both the husband and wife had been employed by separate companies up to a year ago. Each of them lost their job. (Job market is NOT kind to people over 50. This of course has exacerbated the other difficulties.) Although, they are feeling a bit unanchored, they see this as an opportunity to work together to create their own business. (They are thinking of buying a franchise that will require financing.) This is actually a dream that they have had for years. They plan to use the money in the brokerage account to finance the business and to “carry them over” until the business is profitable.
Knowledge of issues caused by U.S. citizenship:
Until recently, (like the rest of the world) they knew nothing about the problems of U.S. citizenship. Their knowledge began whey they were introduced to Mr. FBAR.
They are now concerned that they may not be able to operate a business together.
Here is why:
1. The husband is adamant that he will NOT allow any of his financial information disclosed to the IRS.
2. The wife is scared out of her mind. She is already in the US tax system and is determined to file her tax and information returns according to US law.
3. They want to keep the business as simple as possible. They do NOT (at least at the moment) want the expense of creating a corporation. This means that the only real option is to operate as a partnership.
Now, here are some of the issues they are trying to work around:
A. If they carry on business as a partnership, the wife will have to file the relevant foreign partnership form to the IRS. This is a “deal breaker” for the husband.
B. If they were to create a corporation, then then she would have to file the 5471 and incur the other usual costs associated with the U.S. wife owning part of a CFC (Controlled Foreign Corporation) in Canada. Again, the husband is unwilling to have any of his business information included on an IRS information return.
C. The husband will not enter into any business where the the financial records are disclosed to the IRS. Therefore, he won’t allow the wife to have signing authority over the bank accounts of the business. This is an extension of the family bank account problem and is a real concern to the wife.
The fact of her US citizenship is clearly eroding the “good will” in their marriage. Neither of them is particularly employable (it’s the age thing). Therefore, they must think in terms of running their own business. It appears that the desire of the US wife to be US tax compliant is making it impossible for her to be a business partner with her husband.
Assuming they both want to save their marriage and create a family business, how should they deal with this problem? The husband will have NOTHING to do with the IRS.
If this cannot be solved:
– they may not be able to operate a family business
– each of the husband and wife, if they are to have business partners, will have to find different partners. In the case of the husband a partner who is not a US person. In the case of the wife, a parter who IS a US person
– they may be talking divorce which in addition to all the other problems will force the sale of the family home resulting in a significant reduction in the living standard for each of them individually. Furthermore, the wife will have to pay a US capital gains tax on her share.
Should the wife consider renouncing US citizenship?
Until 2011 the wife had always been a patriotic US citizen. She hates the problems that the U.S. has caused her and might entertain the idea of renouncing. The only thing that holds her back is that (paradoxically) the US tax problems have destabilized her marriage to the point that, should the marriage end, she would want the option of being able to return to be with family in the US
Should the children (assuming they are US citizens) consider renouncing?
The children were born in Canada.
How can these problems be solved?
It’s clear the wife is attached to her American citizenship, otherwise you’d think she would have shed it earlier, the husband who is also clearly not in-tune with his spouse’s wants, needs, and feelings is responding with an unreasonable request showing that he probably isn’t really in to the marriage, and maybe hasn’t been for a while. If a form full of numbers going to a distant government that you all state over and over again has no real power to penalize you, as the Canadian Federal Government will not enforce US tax liens or collection attempts on Canadian citizens what is his big deal? It’s not like it’s some unscrupulous loan shark or some mafioso coming at you with a baseball bat, it’s the US Government and she’s a US citizen. It is not in their interest to ensure she is doing anything other than following the law.
The only reason we are in this unfortunate situation regarding taxation is because there are people who think they are either above the law, or that the rules don’t apply to them equally as they do the rest of us, these are the scumbags you should be rallying against.
Steve & Badger, yes other citizens do have to worry about their other halves reporting their details to the IRS. The ACA has had several reported cases of this happening here in Switzerland and the reaction has been virtually the same; couples on the brink of divorce because of it. Swiss citizens value their banking privacy and many have been very upset that their other US halves are required to report their details. It’s a classic Catch-22 situation where the US spouse is damned by their partner if they disclose account info and damned by the IRS if they don’t. It’s no wonder many are feeling suicidal over the whole taxation mess.
@Calgary411
It is impossible as a US citizen abroad to not feel extreme anger toward the United States. As an example, consider the following comment (one of many) from an earlier thread:
As I say, this is is one of many comments from this thread. It is striking for two reasons:
1. It uses the words “hatred for this administration”; and
2. “who deliberately broke and entered into private house to commit armed robbery”
The use of the words “hatred” and “entered into private house” are significant. I understand him/her to be talking about how FBAR (and by inference other aspects of extraterritorial US taxation intrude into the family relationship).
As a result, it is no surprise that:
The most reasonable, vocal, articulate, justified and marketable – “Anti-Americanism” comes from U.S. citizens abroad:
https://twitter.com/USCitizenAbroad/status/214064792237916161
There is little difference between the IRS administration of OVDP OVDI and other forms of terrorism. It is hard to believe that all of this could have come from a country that Margaret Thatcher once referred to as “That Great Citadel of Freedom and Justice”. What we have in this situation is that the woman’s fear of the IRS appears to have resulted in the betrayal of a marital trust (turning the FBAR information over to the IRS).
In any case, on the counseling issue:.
U.S. citizens abroad have suffered extreme, unjustified and unreasonable injustice at the hands of the Obama administration. Many of them are in need of counseling to recover from the effects of this (particularly those who entered OVDI). But, you are right, this is not the kind of thing that any “run of the mill” counselor could even begin to comprehend. Therefore, I am inclined to agree that most counseling would not be effective. What is the counselor supposed to say? The comment from @WhoaIt’sSteve The “Homelander” at 5:05 demonstrates how difficult it is to understand the problem.
For many people the last couple of years have been a “life altering event” resulting in the complete destruction of their lives. The only kind of counselor that could begin to understand this would be those who specialized in counseling the victims of “group mobbing”, “group attacks” and “bullying”.
So, I guess I am saying that:
I understand and emphasize with your anger. I also understand your reasons for not seeking counseling. The sad thing is that the biggest victims of this have been the people who tried to pay their taxes, who tried to come into compliance, who believed they should obey the law.
OVDI was an incredibly sweet deal for the criminals for which it was originally intended. It was a event of life altering, incalculable unfairness for those “every day, middle class, U.S. citizens abroad, who were victimized by a combination of the IRS and the cross-border professionals”.
@Todundsteur
I agree there is evidence that the marriage is not in great shape. But, it seems to me that the unfairness of U.S. citizenship-based taxation will be the “straw that breaks the camels back”. As a lawyer you can take a “big picture view” of all of this, making it is easier to see this in terms of the “logic of tax” and the like. For a U.S. citizen abroad who is trying to live a life, the situation is somewhat different. Put it another way:
The reality of FBAR, FATCA and other incidents of U.S. citizenship based taxation is that, as President Kennedy said in 1963 – in reference to the Berlin Wall (and I am paraphrasing from memory):
Citizenship-based taxation is not only an offense against history, It is an offense against humanity. By intruding into the family it divides, brothers and sisters, husbands and wives and people who want to be together.
Facts are stubborn things. The fact is that this woman is forced to choose between her husband and Mr. FBAR!
The marriage has a chance without the IRS problems. With the IRS problems the chances of success are severely diminished.
Finally, for those who wish to harken back to a time when American was a leader in Human Rights, here is the Kennedy speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZItzF0ldAUo
All cannot have been well in that relationship if she only told him about the disclosure after the fact. Likely that’s a good part of the excitement.
When facing a possible divorce, it’s normal to consider going “home”, back to the time and place before one met one’s partner. But that is sentimental fantasy. After 25 years, reflection will show that Canada is her real home now, with or without the guy.
His insisting on separate accounts going forward is reasonable, at least until she has renounced her citizenship and no longer needs to report.
There is no question that she should renounce her US citizenship, post haste. The US wants to ruin her life, why should she stay in the club? Get thee to the consulate, woman!
She also should not consider going into business with her husband if divorce seems possible.
@WhoaIt’sSteve The “Homelander”
Hah, fuck the US, and you’re right, it’s not like some shark or mafioso, it’s far worse than that. At least when you pay the mafia protection they actually might do something to your benefit. Seriously, it’s like dealing with any other 419 scam or junk debt collector, you just ignore them.
From badger,
and from USCitizenAbroad, for presenting here this unfortunate marital dilema and allowing us to comment / vote based on what might be happening in our own lives. At least we can empathize and understand how it happened.
And from President Kennedy’s speech,
No, the US has done it by punitive legislation of the US Congress, creating and maintaining ever increasing threats and penalties of “citizenship-based taxation”. The only ones to benefit from citizenship-based taxation are those who live within the bounds of the USA. For all US Persons, outside the US borders, it is another Berlin wall, an invisible boundary to pull back those who had the audacity to leave. The much better choice for me and many others to putting up with those threats is to be the best citizen I can be of the country I choose to live in, not the one I was accidentally born in.
P.S. Thanks to both of you, Petros and so many others for helping me deal with all of this. Long live Isaac Brock!
Whoa,
re…” The only reason we are in this unfortunate situation regarding taxation is because there are people who think they are either above the law, or that the rules don’t apply to them equally as they do the rest of us, these are the scumbags you should be rallying against.”
No. The ONLY reason we are in this unfortunate situation is that the US insists on imposing US tax and financial controls over people LIVING and BORN in other countries, who have NO US connection other than an accidental birthplace or a US parent. No other country does this except Eritrea.
We’ve gone over this before. There is no justifiable or ethical reason for the US to lay claim to assets generated and held entirely outside its borders by people who are citizens of another country with NO economic relationship to the US. I don’t see why you think that US residents should be subject to one tax system, but we should be subject to two?
I haven’t seen you assert that as a US resident, you would be happy to pay taxes to whatever country your ancestors came from – as well as your US ones. I haven’t see you assert that ALL US citizens and residents should file bank and asset reports on all their US accounts – in parallel with the FBAR obligation. If the FBAR is so very useful and necessary, it should be useful and necessary for US accounts too.
There is NO justifiable reason for imposing the Bank Secrecy Act on our local accounts ONLY because they are located outside the US – which is where we live. Unlike US residents with Cayman Island accounts.
Our accounts are legal, post-tax and located where we live, where many of us were born, where we hold a non-US citizenship, where we pay a full set of taxes and receive actual services and benefits. Our accounts are registered with our domestic tax agency – our home equivalent of the IRS. They are subject to layers of tax and criminal laws and enforcement oversight by our own home government – so the likelihood that the 6-7 million of us outside the US are routinely holding illegal or criminal accounts is slim. They primarily hold our wages – which were taxed at source, and tax witheld – BEFORE the money was automatically deposited in by our employers.
In actual fact, several major US domestic banks have been implicated in massive money laundering and the like, ON US soil. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/us-bank-mexico-drug-gangs http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/HSBC-Money-Laundering-Scam. So, the supposition that our local everyday accounts are to be assumed to be criminal BEFORE the fact denies us of the benefit of being presumed innocent before being proved guilty. Usually, someone has to demonstrate some type of indication of guilt before being under intrusive scrutiny. But for us, it is enough to simply live outside the US. No one went to jail from the US banks – they were deemed ‘too big to fail’ and ‘too big to prosecute’ http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/03/06/holder-banks-may-be-too-large-to-prosecute/ http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/12/hsbc-prosecution-fine-money-laundering
The US does not monitor the local accounts of US residents on this level – making US residents report on FBARs every year for non-personal accounts, with no ownership and no financial interest. It does not require that US residents report their employer’s accounts on an FBAR, or on their 1040 return, nor demand that volunteer treasurers inside the US report the accounts of charitable organizations on their own personal tax returns. It does not demand that US residents report on any and all accounts which MIGHT in the future be subject to a POA
Any earnings on our accounts are automatically reported for income tax purposes to our tax agency. We pay a full set of taxes where we live and earn. Often we pay taxes that the US does not give us credit for. Like our 15 % GST or VAT taxes http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/bsnss/tpcs/gst-tps/menu-eng.html .
Who exactly are then the ‘scumbags’ who ‘don’t follow the rules’ that you mention? How about the US federal employees and departments who haven’t paid their US taxes http://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/editorialfiles/2012/05/03/2226647_FERDI_2009_REDACTED.pdf http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/post/federal-employees-owe-103-billion-in-unpaid-taxes/2012/01/20/gIQAv7KKJQ_blog.html
Our home country has an extensive reciprocal agreement with the US – ostensibly to prevent double taxation. It is the US who abrogates the terms of the treaty via the savings clause and the last in time rule. It is the US who seeks to lay claim to property that belongs to Canada.
If we are to be taxed like a US resident, we should have all the other rights and benefits of one.
US residents are allowed special exemptions as incentives to save for post-secondary education. We are taxed and penalized if we use our Canadian equivalent, but prevented from using the US domestic equivalent. There are many other tax incentives and exemptions that we are not allowed to use.
The IRS provides free assistance with filing by volunteer tax clinics in the US. It cancelled all tax assistance sessions in our consulates – due to budget cuts.
Filing taxes for someone with a modest income inside the US is relatively easy – and a range of US tax preparation help is affordable and easy to locate. US tax assistance here is hard to locate, very expensive, compliance requires many more complex reporting forms, specialized training, and is more fraught with potential penalties. The prices have gone up and even the basic HRBlock is charging incredible fees http://www.hrblock.ca/services/US_tax_pricing.asp . And at the end, we often owe zero US tax. Compare that to average 1040 filing costs in the US http://taxes.about.com/od/findataxpreparer/a/prices.htm So what did all that money, time and effort on our part prove? Often that we owed the US nothing. So, you file one set of tax returns annually, and we file two. And when we do owe US tax it is on things that our home country does not consider taxable – like the sale of our principal residence. Or, the Obamacare surcharge tax – which pays down the US debt – and is of no benefit or responsibility of ours http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/personal-finance/taxes/us-expats-in-canada-face-new-obamacare-health-care-tax/article7372249/
We cost the US nothing, we ask for nothing more than to be left in peace as citizens and permanent residents of other countries.
The US is just greedy and arrogant. Might makes right is the only rationale for asserting a claim on people who may have never set foot on US soil, and who never will. If we do, then tax us if we become US residents and use US services – as all other countries do.
@Badger
No reason to beat up on WhoaitsSteve so badly! This is how Homelanders (and he now calls himself a Homelander) really see the world. To be fair, Steve has made an effort to understand this situation. Steve keep the understanding coming!
@Calgary
And the Homelanders are living with one of those “Invisible dog fences” to keep the people in.
When Kennedy said:
“… but we have not had to put a wall up to keep our people in, to prevent them from leaving us.”
he could not have anticipated: Barack Obama, Timothy Geithner, Doug Shulman (The three Amigos) and the their intellectual mentor Carl Levin.
Also, the US is NOT benefiting from citizenship-based taxation. Roger Conklin and others have made the point time and time again that citizenship-based taxation hurts the US economy directly. Furthermore, the animosity that it is generating toward the US, of which this thread is one of many examples, will be very very costly to the Homeland. Pity they are so constrained in their understanding.
Before it is too late the US must:
Stop citizenship-based taxation and repeal FATCA.
@ badger
I hope Whoa reads, I mean REALLY READS every word you wrote. It seems every time there is a lapse in his presence here Whoa backslides. It’s a strange phenomena and to be kind I’ll just say there could be something bad in the air and/or water down there. I started out trying to not be too hard on “homelanders”, after all it’s their legislation at fault, not they themselves, but now I find myself describing that place down south as the Untied Snakes of Arrogance so I probably need an attitude adjustment just like Whoa. 🙂
@whoa
Seems to me you come here to look into the mirror, where you don’t like what you see, so you say the mirror’s warped.
A recurrent theme hereabouts is How do we get Homelanders to understand the situation. Not easy, as it is complex and most people are busy and have no time for complexity, at least if it doesn’t affect them. That being said, I have found that family members in the US care about me and care enough to let me explain it to them. A half dozen people here, a half dozen there…I hope it goes somewhere. I expect my experience is common, but that it’s not universal. I suppose there are people outside the US who are shunned by their USside relations. I wonder what others have found.
@ Northern Shrike,
I don’t know many people in the US, but the reaction I’ve gotten has been quite positive.
I’ve spoken with a cousin and an aunt, and they both think that the US’ policies on USCs abroad is nuts. And they were very happy to hear I’d gotten my citizenship status straightened out (I relinquished in 1979).
I have a friend in the US. I told her about it on the phone. She was very interested and asked me to send her some links to articles about FATCA and US extra-terrorial tax. So I e-mailed her links to a few articles. To my surprise, she e-mailed me back a few hours later, saying that she’d forwarded them to her congressman with a brief note. To my further surprise, she e-mailed me two days later, saying a staffer from her congressman’s office telephoned her asking her for more information. BTW, her congressman is Paul Tonko (Albany, NY).
@calgary, “The only ones to benefit from citizenship-based taxation are those who live within the bounds of the USA. For all US Persons outside the US borders, it is another Berlin wall, an invisible boundary to pull back those who had the audacity to leave. The much better choice for me and many others to putting up with those threats is to be the best citizen I can be of the country I choose to live in, not the one I was accidentally born in.”
Amen.
@USCitizen, I didn’t think I was that hard. I stuck to verifiable facts. And only called US extraterritorial citizenship-based taxation and pursuit of us abroad; arrogant, greedy, unethical, immoral, inequitable, power mad, irrational, short sighted, and hypocritical. Which I think was an accurate characterization.
Homelanders describe the US government, the IRS, and the major parties using the same terms or worse all the time. Its the American way.
@Em, I don’t think it is our attitude that needs adjusting. We’re living it. We have sustained real injury. It’s not hypothetical.
@northernshrike, I’ve mostly been telling fellow Canadians. They seemed to get it better than US residents did – maybe because their view of the US is skeptical anyway. I got the feeling from everyone I’ve spoken to, that it was so surreal that they couldn’t get a firm grip on it – couldn’t seem to grasp the FBAR thing at all – hadn’t heard of it, that it even existed, what it was for, why Canadians and others of US descent had to do it, why a piddly local everyday account in Canada was being treated equivalent to a US resident with an account in the Caymans. No-one could understand the details – the whole reporting of non-personal accounts with no financial interest, or the highest balance vs. the usual reporting of interest (which we do anyway – via automatic T5 slip) etc.
@Pacifica and Badger
Thanks for the comments. Nice story, Pacifica. I see that Tonko is a Dem. That’s good. It would increase his credibility with other Democrats.
@ badger
I think I’m going to keep my snarky attitude after all. I’ve spent nearly a year of living in bewilderment and outright despair at being in a situation that I cannot fix and there is still no concrete sign of relief ahead. So come on Flaherty, if you are plotting to sell us out let us know so we have something tangible to shoot at. I deserve to be a tad p’d off and so do all Brockers.
Pacifica, that was a really awesome thing your friend did. I find that while my family and friends are sympathetic, they aren’t much use. I have friends who are journalists and basically don’t want to take up the issue b/c they fear raising any political issues that are “unflattering” to Obama that the “wing-nuts” could use against him. However, I actually have a “wing-nut” journalist Facebook friend who also is uninterested b/c the issue paints the US as the opposite of the democratic nirvana where all others on the planet want to live themselves.
There is just no winning.
Amazing @Pacifica. If only my relative showed that same interest.
@Em, “I’ve spent nearly a year of living in bewilderment and outright despair at being in a situation that I cannot fix and there is still no concrete sign of relief ahead.” I think you’re more than entitled to be outright hostile – snarky is too mild to fit the size of the injustice.
@Em
Long live the snark! Having always been a snarky person, I have to reflect on why I would choose snarkiness over another mode of expression. I believe it often allows me to express disdain with a degree of humour, therefore less confrontational under certain circumstances, and at the same time is a pressure release valve. I have to admit, though, though my snarkiness concerning the USG’s behavior is morphing into exasperation with the fact that after 15 months of making an OVDI submission we still have received no response from the IRS. WTF is going on down there???
@a
Have you been to the “Americans in Canada” Facebook group page?They kicked me off of there for talking about taxation issues. Maybe they’ll become more receptive when their bank accounts start getting closed.
Remember all this is a marathon not a sprint. I know that is difficult for those of us who have REAL lives to live and didn’t expect to spend a better part of them fighting over growing up what we would have thought of as obscure tax issues.
@ bubblebustin
I have a theory. Your OVDI submission ended up at USCIS and my I-407 ended up at the OVDI department. Flunkies in both places scratched their heads and tossed out those foreign pieces of paper. Well maybe that’s not quite right — you’ve been waiting half a year more than I have. 😉
Hey everyone look at this
http://www.fin.gc.ca/afc/atip-aiprp/cair-daic0213-eng.asp
A-2012-00421 Peter Hogg’s November 2012 letter outlining Charter concerns about a tax agreement with the United States All disclosed 5
Someone got Peter Hogg’s letter through Access to Information. Not that I don’t believe Arrow but Hogg’s letter is apparently real and Finance has come to the conclusion legally it must be released to “someone.”
Thanks for finding that Tim (how do you know when and where to look for these things?) Bravo!
As a reminder to anyone wondering about the article that mentions Hogg’s letter:
See http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/irs-wants-canada-to-nab-us-tax-cheats-why-we-should-care/article6994760/
Sovereignty
‘IRS wants Canada to nab U.S. tax cheats: Why we should care’
by
DON WHITELEY
Special to The Globe and Mail (includes clarification)
Published Monday, Jan. 07 2013, 7:17 AM EST
Last updated Tuesday, Jan. 08 2013, 12:23 PM EST
“………………Peter Hogg, one of Canada’s leading Constitutional experts, sent a letter to the Finance Department last November, outlining a number of Charter concerns with any tax agreement signed with the U.S. – but he declined to make the letter public because he was attempting to arrange a meeting to discuss the issues.
If a tax IGA with the U.S. violates Canadian Charter rights, the question for Ottawa is, how would they get around it? Ottawa has never invoked the notwithstanding clause, and it’s hard to believe that even a Conservative government would do so for an agreement that has absolutely no benefit for Canada.
This issue – of huge significance to any Canadian who is a taxpayer or has a bank account (they will be paying for all this) has so far flown well below the radar. The U.S.-Canada talks on an agreement are shrouded in secrecy, neither opposition party has said a word about it, and the media pays very sporadic attention to it. That all has to change before the government signs away the country’s sovereignty.”
So, can one file a FOI request to find out who filed the FOI request for the letter?
Tim
Nice work. Now I’m going to figure out how to get at it — it doesn’t link to the letter on that FOI sheet. Am I missing something? Maybe I’ll just contact Peter Hogg again and see what happens. If I can get my hands on itt, I might be able to parlay it into another piece.
My bank contact told me today that “substantive” IGA talks between feds and treasury got underway again within the last week or so — but nothing is imminent. He suspects it will now wait until after the budget which is supposed to come out near the end of March.
Arrow,
Unfortunately all they have to disclose publically is that they actually disclosed it to “someone”. I was actually kind of hoping you were the someone. I suspect when these access to information come in and it turns out there is actually real information that must be disclosed there is a heightened sensivity in the political realm.
I have heard that on the US side of things there will be a formal request made by the US Treasury Department to Congress at the end of the month for the US to pass legislation requiring US banks to comply with fully FATCA level domestic reciprocity and yes this could mean conceivably US banks having to report all “Canadian Persons” to the IRS. Now what are the odds of this passing. Still quite low but there has been a change that the US Treasury is definitely going to make a public and formal request to Congress on this(Many including myself thought this was many years away given the toxicity of this issue). Expect people like Andy Quinlan and Daniel J Mitchell to be quite opposed.