15 thoughts on “Are you suggesting that citizenship is a disability?”

1. If you are an American, you need not apply for this opportunity…

   South Korea’s Hottest Import: Foreign Workers

   Notice that Roger has been busy commenting… 🙂

   There are thousands of qualified furloughed American workers who would love to have a crack at these jobs, but Uncle Sam won’t let them. If Americans go to S Korea to live and work they not only pay Korean income taxes, but they continue to be subject to US tax laws, as if they never left home. And with the newly-enacted FATCA, they can’t open a bank account there if they relocate to Korea either. That law obligates every foreign bank in the other 192 countries of the world to provide detailed reports to the IRS on the bank accounts of all their US-citizen account holders with balances, plus full details on all deposits and withdrawals. This is the kind of information the IRS can only obtain from a US bank with a court order based on solid evidence of tax fraud.

   So Korean banks, and foreign banks everywhere, are closing down the accounts of US citizens living and working abroad, without which they cannot survive. This reporting is a monstrous expense to foreign banks and, most importantly, it violates the bank privacy laws of every country in the world. American Exceptionalism at work: Bullying every other country in the world with our extraterritorial tax legislation. If they fail to comply they are subject to a 30% withholding on all income transfers from the US.

2. I thought this article was interesting: http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/22/gay-americans-forced-to-choose-between-love-and-country/?hpt=hp_t4

   It seems that even in states where homosexuals are allowed to marry, DHS does not recognize the marriage because of a 1996 law “Defense of Marriage Act”. This would seem to violate the text of the UDHR, although at the time the UDHR was promulgated, homosexuality was not accepted as it is by many today.

   Article 16.
   • (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml)

   It doesn’t say “sexual orientation” but in fact the denial of family reunification is due to nationality, as the person is not allowed to live in the US because of their nationality.

   Note also that foreign spouses of US citizens living abroad cannot be natualized as US citizens unless the US Citizen spouse is working for a US company and intends to return to the US upon completion of their mission with that company. Another odd form of discrimination, though in the light of FATBARDT perhaps a blessing.

   Here is a brief on naturalization of foreign spouse abroad http://www.bridgewest.com/visa-services/expedited-u-s-citizenship-for-foreign-spouses-of-u-s-expatriates/.

   We can see that Switzerland doesn’t care if the Swiss spouse works for a Swiss company, though more years of marriage are required if living abroad and the foreign spouse must have a “close connection” to Switzerland (speaking a national language and having visited Switzerland frequently would probably be enough): http://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/en/home/reps/eur/vgeo/livgeo/nattif/sintif.encoded-Show%3D1%26print%3D1.html

   So you see, even in a country that has historically been viewed as xenophobic, we give people a fair deal, more fair that the supposed bastion of democracy that is the United States of Arrogance (to steal the term of Blaze and others).

3. another story that a former citizenship can be a liability : https://www.nestmann.com/beep-for-the-u-s-citizen/

4. Seems that once I finally get the CLN that I seek, it is vitally important that I never ever lose it for the rest of my life, because that’s the only way for me to prove that I no longer have that taint.

   Is there any procedure that would allow for me to apply for a new CLN in the event the original one ends up being lost? Seems that information would be important to know in this day and age.

5. Have copies stored of
   it elslsewhere. Google Driv
   ve etc.

6. I’m sure that could work, but I would think that the document in question would likely have either some sort of official mark, or raised seal, that can only be made by the source.

   I don’t really know what such a CLN looks like, so I’ll try a Google search to find an example.

7. Here’s a link to the CLN form http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81609.pdf. The consulate officer will sign the lower right, and the embossed seal in the lower left will be that of the consulate. On mine, the upper right was rubber stamped in Washington in Blue ink “Certificate of Loss of Nationality / Approved (Date in Black ink) / Overseas Citizens Services/ Department of State / By CA/OCS/ACS/WHA.” That stands for Consular Affairs/Overseas Citizens Services/American Citizens Services/ Western Hemisphere Division.

   I assume there is a procedure to replace a lost or destroyed CLN, but all I could find in a quick internet search was how to replace a certificate of naturalisation. I found the US govt has an information page “Replacing Your Vital Documents” and an address to e-mail questions. If I needed to replace mine, I’d probably ask at the consulate or contact CA/OSC/ACS in Washington.

8. pacifica777, you said,

   “I assume there is a procedure to replace a lost or destroyed CLN, but all I could find in a quick internet search was how to replace a certificate of naturalisation. I found the US govt has an information page “Replacing Your Vital Documents” and an address to e-mail questions. If I needed to replace mine, I’d probably ask at the consulate or contact CA/OSC/ACS in Washington.”

   I wouldn’t assume there is such a procedure. After a person has received a CLN, s/he is no longer a US citizen, and the US government has no special obligation to serve the person. In particular, the services that a consulate provides for US citizens are no longer available to an ex-citizen. At best, the US might provide a duplicate certificate, but for a high fee. At worst, it could simply say it can’t provide a duplicate. So my advice is to make multiple copies and store the original in a very safe place. That’s what I have done.

9. That is basically what I was thinking, too. Why would they go out of their way to help out someone thst is no longer a citizen?

10. @AnonAnon,

    I agree; I wouldn’t want to count on a replacement procedure for the loss of our “loss of nationality” document, probably now our MOST important document — I know it is for me. What an awful thing to have to do — ask for a replacement of that CLN. Safety deposit box for original; copy with Canadian (other country) passport; PDF on computer and on back-up; other hard copies on file at home. I should also send the pdf file to my kids, just in case. Maybe we can get one for our banks when / if they require we have to provide that document to them.

    …and it’s said that vital information is be on databases for crossing the border, etc.

11. @AnonAnon, mjh and Calgary,

    I’m with you 100 percent on making copy/ies of it and storing in different locations. I myself will only use my original after determining that production of the original is absolutely necessary for a particular situation. While I assume the US would replace the CLN, I also assume there would be a, possibly hefty, fee and it would probably be a pain in the neck too.

    I’ll clarify I’d not expect the consulate to replace the CLN — maybe they do, I have no clue. I do feel, however, that the consulate would be more likely to know what CLN replacement procedure is than the people who answer e-mails from the general US govt website which deals with more general documents such as birth certificates,bank records and school records. So that’s why I’d probably address my inquiry to the consulate or CA/OCS.

12. For thoughts on the importance/significance of a CLN, check:

    http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2013/02/07/membership-has-its-privileges/

    “A CLN is priceless. For everything else there is Mastercard!”

13. In some situations a certified true copy carries the weight of an original. So, if an original is required and you don’t want to risk taking the original out of its safety deposit box if you don’t have to, you could ask if a certified true copy would be acceptable. You’d have to take the original to a commissioner for oaths, but you could have several true copies made at once and keep them available for future use.

    As Calgary mentioned about the border, I too have read of people being told that the info is in the DHS database, and also that people at least here in Canada (can’t remember if it’s different flying from overseas or not) have been told they just need to bring a photocopy when crossing, so that’s all I’m going to do (it’ll probably be years before I feel like going there, though, so I’d have to make sure that’s still the case if I do decide to go there years from now).

14. Sovereign Man (blog): “RED ALERT: World’s biggest gold storage company dumps US citizens”

    http://www.sovereignman.com/important-information/red-alert-worlds-biggest-gold-storage-company-dumps-us-citizens-10958/

    From the article:

    “We are currently experiencing rapid and substantial changes in the general regulations within this business. The changes mainly relate to the tax structures and taxation systems of various countries. As a consequence of these changes VIA MAT INTERNATIONAL has taken the decision to stop offering this service at its vault [sic] outside of the US to private customers with potential US-tax liability.”

    More proof that for any American permanently living abroad, keeping US citizenship amounts to nothing more than keeping a big disability.

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