Deckard writes of a major irony in the position (or non-position) of Democrats Abroad on FATCA and related issues:
I believe that one of the ironic consequences of our situation is that Democrats Abroad, and others analogous to it, such as Republicans Abroad, shall soon be facing unprecedented existential crises. If FATCA continues to unfold as its architects wish it to then there may be no more than this current generation left to even attend DA meetings and events. Instead, they may begin to resemble lonely Legion halls with a dwindling membership of WWII vets.
Once FATCA begins to be fully implemented, younger Democrats Abroad will be faced with a stark choice: either shed themselves of their now-toxic U.S. citizenship which their parents so lovingly transmitted to them, with all the best intentions – or face a bleak future of financial ruin in their adopted countries because of a crippling inability to participate in the essential tax-deferral vehicles they need to build a secure retirement. Of course, the third choice would be to abandon their overseas homes completely, where they were very likely born, and run headlong into the full embrace of the Homeland, leaving their friends and family behind forever.
I attended the Inaugural Ball celebration at the local chapter of Democrats Abroad last night and I saw very few people under the age of 50 in attendance. If that is the current, baseline demographic for this organization then I would have to conclude that its days may very well be numbered.
I was struck last night at the passion with which one of the organizers spoke of the chapter’s me-too support of new gun-control legislation in the U.S. I could not help but marvel at the irony of an overseas American organization choosing to focus on an almost entirely domestic American issue at the expense of issues that will be of far more immediate and personal consequence to their own lives in the coming years. No one spoke of FATCA, and the destructive scourge of citizenship-based taxation, even though this issue should remain at the very top of DA’s agenda for years to come.
I know that Joe Green is DA’s Canadian point-man for the FATCA/FBAR task force, but it seems that he is the only one in the organization who’s showing any real interest in the topic. Everyone else is blithely enjoying their little get-togethers and making themselves feel good about supporting a few easy motherhood issues from afar, all the while ignoring the ugly, dangerous reality that lies right before their very eyes, on this side of the border. If Democrats Abroad remains blind to where its energies most urgently need to be directed, and if it cannot muster enough confidence to forthrightly speak truth to power, then I believe it is truly doomed and will soon be a footnote to history.
Deckard originally wrote his above observations, in reply a comment to Michael on another thread, which read:
I am a member of Democrats Abroad. I voted for Obama because I agree with him on more issues than I do with the Republicans. At the same time I disagree with FATCA and citizenship-based taxation and enjoy the IBS website. If IBS wants to be as effective as possible in reaching out on citizenship-based taxation — which, like government raids and government overreach, precedes Obama — I would urge you to be more politically inclusive.
Thanks to Michael for his comment as well as to Deckard for his lengthy reply to it. It’s an important matter worthy of focus and exchange of ideas and opinions.
@Michael,
It is hard to respond to you with any patience or forbearance. We have been hashing all this out for more than a year now, and some of us, like Roger Conklin, are longtime steadfast members of the ACA and other non-partisan international associations representing those deemed US citizens abroad – and through their testimony, we know that many of the things we’re angry about have their roots in decades past – and continue to be unjust decades later.
But Obama and the Democrats have gone far, far beyond all the already existing – with the HIRE Act, and FATCA, and the manner in which they continue to criminalize us and through the manner their appointees choose to interpret, administer and enforce Treasury and IRS policies.
The only ‘inclusiveness‘ we’ve experienced from the US in general, and
Obama and the Democrats in particular is that we’re ‘included‘ in the
broad general category of criminals, ‘tax cheats’ and shirkers ‘not
paying our fair share’, and ‘hiding’ our ‘foreign’ bank accounts.
This
despite the full knowledge that many of us owe zero US tax. Many others
are subjected to US tax on things that are not taxable (ex. principal residence,
government registered savings plans) where we were actually born, or
live and work – permanently. AND we have paid up our taxes where we live – in full. AND we pay other substantial taxes like our HST and GST and property taxes, that the IRS and US refuse to acknowledge and give us tax credits for. Many of us live and so pay taxes, in countries with a higher effective tax rate than the US.
But despite having already paid one country’s tax bill in full, and generally owing no tax to the US, that is not sufficient. No, we must prove every year for life that we’re not criminals hiding ‘foreign’ assets – abroad. But, the catch is that ALL our accounts and assets are deemed ‘foreign’ – because we were born, and/or our permanent home is a ‘foreign’ country – outside the US. We must even report on our non-US employer’s accounts if we have a co-signatory power as part of our job. Or on our child’s local sports team fundraising account. Or our church if we’re a volunteer treasurer. And it goes much farther than that, but that is more than enough proof of US abuse and irrationality vis a vis those whose only ‘crime’ is being born and/or living a normal life outside the US.
We’re forced to prove under the Bank
Secrecy Act FBAR that we’re not terrorist funders, money launderers,
drug lords, and criminal tax evaders – annually – forever and ever. That
was a law very rarely used in the past, and in past practice, not applied to ordinary
citizens on a proactively annual basis. But that is what governs the
treatment of our legal local savings and accounts – only on the basis
that they are ‘foreign’ – because they are outside the US. But, so are
we – permanently, for life. We have no reason or opportunity to ‘hide’ anything where we live – because our accounts are all registered with our home country tax number and reported to the government here. We are automatically assessed and pay tax on it, now or when we earn anything on it. The banks issue notices to the tax agency automatically, and we must report it on our returns. But the US is not satisfied with the oversight of only the government where we live. Or to see those slips and those returns. No, that isn’t good enough. We are such criminals in waiting that we need the oversight of TWO governments – the one where we actually live, AND the US. And, we are all so immoral and so guilty, that fines and penalties must be all of huge size in multiples of ten thousand – assessed on legal post-tax accounts.
I e-mailed my local Democrats Abroad about this – and got no reply. I attended a meeting – and listened to the lame and disingenuous claims that if we waited for an Obama and Democrat response until after the election, we’d surely be heard when a better time came, but that the election was the priority, and it was a bad time to raise our concerns.
The US is persecuting us, and it has become very clear that things are only getting worse. We have no choice – the US is forcing us to renounce or relinquish if/and as soon as we can.
And it is claiming our dual born children – who were born citizens of a non-US country, and have never set foot in the US. And also those deemed incompetent. They are effectively economic ‘taxable’ hostages – since they are not allowed to renounce, and we are not allowed to do it on their behalf. We are punished for contributing to their education savings plans, and they cannot get the grants that our home country would give them – because the US not only taxes it, it attaches punitive penalties and reporting to their very existence.
We’re being savagely threatened and abused, and the Democrats are primarily to blame – currently they are at the helm, designing, implementing and steering so much of what we are presently suffering from. Obama appointed the “TurboTax did it” Geithner, and allowed him to stonewall the Taxpayer Advocate. Congress did not respond to her reports regarding the problems and injustices we are experiencing – which she flagged as of special concern. Geithner owed thousands, yet got off lightly – his tax omissions were deemed to be excusable – and he is a banker and worked for the IMF http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jan/16/your-guide-geithner-tax-controversy/. Yet, an ordinary grandmother born and living ‘abroad’ where she is a Canadian citizen, who has already paid taxes to her home government in full – in Canada – with a little bank account in Canada, has to pay thousands in fees to satisfy the IRS that she owes zero – which is already obvious http://business.financialpost.com/2011/09/24/u-s-campaign-to-catch-tax-cheats-snaring-canadians/
What good would ‘inclusiveness’ do us? I am non-partisan – I am not a member of any US party. At first I thought they just didn’t understand how we were effected. Then, I had to face the facts – that the US just wants our assets, and the assets of our children – though they were born abroad and only inherited the status via parentage. The US wants our entirely non-US created estates – and discriminates against the inheritance rights of our non-US spouses and children. The list of problems with the way the US treats us for extraterritorial citizenship-based tax and reporting burdens is too long to get into here.
I now despise the US government and will shed my unwanted (and unsought) US citizenship status as soon as possible. It refuses to allow us any meaningful representation, cancelled any IRS services in our consulates and embassies. Provides no services to us abroad. Does nothing to make it simpler and easier to be and remain ‘in compliance’, and prevents us from having any normal banking and savings where we live. Deems all of our registered savings options to be ‘foreign trusts’. Refuses to make any same country exceptions. It interferes in all of our normal household financial planning with our non-US family, and seeks to gather revenues for the US domestic debt by any means possible – sucked out of us through penalties (ex. FBAR) that even the TAS has warned could possibly be open to a constitutional challenge (so disproportionate to the amounts in question, to be deemed ‘confiscatory’).
IRS ‘education’ consists of threatening us in public statements, applying draconian laws and producing ever more complex and onerous reporting obligations – and adding new fines and penalties, eroding any protections re Statute of Limitations, etc.
There are regular participants here who tended to be lifelong Democrats or most often Dem supporters, and who voted for Obama the first time. And some who would have voted for him in the last election. We tried to get our stateside representatives to respond on these issues – to no avail.
But, Obama remained steadfastly silent on the issues we raised re FATCA, and problems we faced banking and saving local to where we live. While allowing all our legal, local, post-tax accounts to be treated by the US as if we were criminals. Though some of the roots of this came from the prior Republican administrations, Obama and the Democrats created the HIRE Act, and have continued to pile on the penalties and obligations – while not supporting Carolyn Maloney’s call for a Presidential Commission to look into our concerns.
We were told that we had to wait until after the election to raise any concerns, that it was a bad time to be heard. And now, we’re after the election, and NOTHING. The Democrats even dropped those “abroad” as a ‘group of interest’ from their campaign platform from 2008 to the latest one – why? Obama pledged to be open to listen to our concerns. But then, NOTHING.
Obama answered none of our letters and e-mails.
We barely escaped paying the full Obamacare price – exempted at the last minute due to lobbying by ACA and others, but now find there is an adjunct tax to it – that is not exempt or offset by our tax treaty with the US, or our ‘foreign’ tax credits.
I can’t swallow Joe Green’s (Democrats Abroad) recent claim that FATCA and the high cost of complying with the US tax and financial reporting laws for those ‘abroad’ is just the price we’ll have to continue to pay for the ‘privilege‘ of being US citizens.
Badger, I admire you. Time and time again you write with clarity and with passion about all this. Good on ya!
DW
*
@Deckard, @ Badger
Unbelieveably well said. Bravo!!!!
Thanks @ all, I am very thankful and beholden to all of you here at IBS. Gives me an outlet – or otherwise, myself and my spouse would have been driven to insanity or divorce by all of this. You all here have kept me going.
@Deckard, re your post above, http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/01/21/we-are-the-federal-government-we-can-do-what-we-want-when-we-want-and-theres-nothing-you-can-do-about-it/comment-page-1/#comment-154265 I never considered that aspect of this situation before – about the eventual dwindling of Democrats Abroad as the true situation re FATCA becomes fully known.
@ Michael, perhaps that is an angle you might pursue in order to show the DA, and the Democrats stateside, that it is becoming irrelevant, and even counterproductive for duals and for those living permanently abroad. It may still resonate with those on short stays abroad, but that may not be enough.
And, for that matter, being a DA, and retaining US status is currently in essential conflict with the best interests and wellbeing of a generation of young duals old enough, and
perhaps with affairs simple enough to get out now – while (as
Phil Hodgen I think says) “the getting is semi-good”.. As Maury Williams
repeatedly asked us; “What about the children?”
@Deckard, you describe the dire future they are facing so accurately.
This
is a real example: a young DA member, attending a meeting with her member
parents recounted her attempt to come forward in good faith in order to
become compliant with IRS demands and rectify things. She got no
acknowledgement of the frightening way the IRS responded, or the size
and pain of her problem from the Democrats Abroad representatives, and
in fact, it was another person who witnessed her testimonial, and other
people’s palpable stress and fear, who stood up and told the others
about the existence of the Taxpayer’s Advocate as a possible avenue for
help. Numerous others there had limited incomes, or had no money to pay for
specialized filing assistance, and didn’t know where to turn, or how to cope.
@Michael,
Why
wouldn’t the DA Abroad have proactively urged ordinary US citizens
abroad to contact Nina Olson for help, and flooding the TAS with SAMS
reports? Why would anyone continue to be a DA member, if they witnessed
the attempts by the DA Abroad to divert attention from the extent of the
true dangers of the IRS and FATCA threat, and urge members to delay any
political action until after the election – when people they knew were
and had been suffering already – and didn’t know what to do or where to
turn for help? The election was our best chance to get Obama’s attention – and he was the one that appointed the head of the Treasury, Geithner.
If we can’t even get the Democrats to look at or
acknowledge our issues – even with the help of Carolyn Maloney, then it
is hopeless and dangerous to remain a US citizen – ALL indications are that the Obama
government and the Democrats are in favour of continuing on this road.
President Carter tried to get the US to look at the issues of those abroad, decades ago, so there is
a Democratic presidential precedent for it (source; ACA?).
What a legacy for the Democrats and Obama to be proud of. Obama, the president who presided over and motivated a flood of US renunciants and relinquishers – constituting the highest numbers of US citizens abroad ever to pay the exorbitant fee of 450. per head, run the armed and dangerous gauntlet of the IRS, and file multiple complex forms – solely in order to leave their US citizenship behind and recapture normal lives. And, they weren’t ‘covered expatriates’ with high incomes.
As our pain grows, it will be harder and harder for our stateside families to
ignore that it originated, was designed, enabled and enforced by the Democrats
and Obama.
@Michael, I would be very interested in the DA debating this openly, and defending why we
must suffer this way – there is NO evidence that all this FATCA and FBAR oppression of those with local everyday accounts which are necessary to function, is detering wealthy stateside US residents and US corporations, who have the assets and mobility to continue to shift assets to use the tax havens, shelters and lobby for and exploit loopholes of their choice.
If that is the case, how will the US and the Democrats justify for posterity, the scope of the damage they are doing to their own ordinary citizens abroad? Eventually, enough gory details will emerge, if a FATCA IGA is signed here, of the scope of the damage. People will come forward when they lost everything and have nothing left to lose. And the DA and Obama should expect that many will have owed zero US taxes, and will have entirely legal, local accounts.
Instead of responding to our concerns, the US is
trying to manuoever Canada into what is probably not even a valid
agreement – “this regime constitutes a tax treaty override, and that I don’t think
that IGAs are a valid fix as a matter of law. Here is my reasoning. I
will use the US-Canada tax treaty as an example, but the override
applies to all US tax treaties currently in force.” from Prof Allison Christians, http://taxpol.blogspot.ca/2013/01/why-fatca-is-tax-treaty-override.html
That too may prove to be very very embarassing to the US and to the Democrats.
If FATCA is the straw that breaks the US extraterritorial-citizenship-based tax camel’s back, the Democrats will go down in history for the insane lengths to which they were willing to go, and the numbers abroad they were willing to persecute in order to pursue what may turn out to be a costly, illegal, and unworkable master plan to conquer the universe.
IRS will be kept so busy going after these people — Democrats Abroad — we will remain hidden.
@All
The position of Democrats Abroad is NOT paradoxical. You will see from their site that they are “The Democratic Party”. They are NOT Democrats who live Abroad. They ARE the party. Therefore they are simply acting out their prescribed role of being enemies of U.S. citizens abroad. No paradox. Just a misunderstanding of what/who they truly are. Those Democrats Abroad who don’t want to see this are simply playing out their prescribed “Stepford Wife” role.
@Badger
Loved our comment! Love your passion! Love your ability to articulate it! In your next life you should be criminal defense lawyer (providing legal counsel to the Geithners of the world)
@Deckard
Yes, you are describing the future with your mastery of calm, cool and precise logic.
@Michael
Let me put this simply.
Through ill advised legislation (which in most cases was not designed to target Americans Abroad) Congress left a lot of gasoline on the floor of a house occupied by Americans abroad. The current Democrats – (including Obama, Levin, Geithner) saw there was a lot of gas on the floor of the house of Americans Abroad. Recognizing this fact and opportunity, they then took some matches, lit a fire and torched the house of Americans Abroad leaving them to die. Again this is the current Democrat Party – not sure what part of this you don’t understand.
I have a thought from the @Badger comment.
What would you think about organizing to contact Jimmy Carter? I do recall reading that (among other things) he was the first president to acknowledge dual citizenship.
Think carefully about this. If he can’t be contacted or doesn’t agree there has been nothing lost. If he is willing to listen and does agree then he could be a powerful ally!
Remember also that he was the president who pardoned the “draft dodgers” (many of whom were in Canada). Obviously I think this is a good idea – your thoughts?
http://www.cartercenter.org/index.html
I think we should all report Joe Green to the IRS instead.
@Joe Smith
They are not mutually exclusive. Why not both?
OK! I do not know him however.
Then we should probably stick to the Carter idea. Do you know him?
*@Badger, magnificent words.They could not be any clearer or any more accurate.
Andy Sundberg, the founder ot ACA and a person who fought valiantly fo9r legislation to be able to pass US citizenship on to his children born in Switzerland and for all Americans with childrent born abroad, recently passed away. There was never a more loyal Democrat than Andy, who had once worked in Washington as a legislative staffer and who was a favoirite son prreidential priamaries candidate of US citzens living abroad. Andy died at a young age, but he lived to regret his successful efforts to pass citizenship onto his children born abroad; totally disallusioned with the totally empty retoric of President Obama’s first campaign where, instead of leveling the playing field for US citizens abroad, embraced the power of FBAR reports to destroy them and who signed FATCA into to law and thus sealed their fate. What Andy truly believed was for the benefit of his and the children of other Americans born abroad has been transformed into a curse of such nightmarish consequences that it is hard to find words to adequately describe what has happened. Nobody abroad with an ounce of brains wants to partner with an American in any sort of a business venture. They are truly a vanishing species as those abroad either return to the US or renounce their citizenship.
Just this week I was talking to a recent college graduate, the born-in-Miami son of refugees from Castro’s Cuba, in Staples when I took my laptop in for service. We happen to attend the same church. He is about to be married, and he has been attracted to and pursuing some promising career opportunities in Australia. He was totally unfamiliar with US citizenship-based taxation, FBARs, FATCA, etc. Never heard of any of these things. But now he knows the pitfalls that await him if he accepts a job opportunity in Australia and moves there with his soon-to-be-bride. Much better that he know ahead of time, before he has made a decision like this, rather than discovering the trap he has fallen into before it is too late.
Do not know either of them. Personally, for the life of me I cannot imagine why someone whose whole professional life was at a Canadian university would have anything to do with Democrats Abroad. Maybe we really do need to have Canadians have only one citizenship: Canadian. Does Joe have any children?
Not a clue. I never even heard of him until his infamous message in July of 2012. Seriously, what do you think of the Carter idea?
Cannot hurt, but I think we should be contacting Star, Globe, and other journalists who are at risk of being arrested at the border!
One needs to look at all the reasons for denial. What can you list?
They never enforced anything before. It’s just talk.
They can’t find me.
I am in debt, I have no savings.
You worry too much.
The US will tire of their efforts and give up.
Many are valid, some are shortsighted.
You can’t make a protest, if no one wants to protest.
@Mark Twain
You are absolutely right. I take some solace that we are prepared. So we will not be blind-sided when a) a bank puts a form in front of us asking our citizenship or b) asks for a “reasonable explanation” as to why we do not have a Certificate of Relinquishment.
a) “I am only a Canadian citizen.” and if it EVER gets to: b:
b) “I was told over the phone by the US Consulate that I had relinquished my citizenship since when I took the Oath of Allegiance to the Queen to became a Canadian I had the intention of giving up my US citizenship.”
Thank you..
*badger, you wrote:
With this, Democrats informed me that they don’t give a flying funk about Americans living overseas. This is bull. The democrat party is corrupt, power-hungry and greedy. It is stupid to vote for the dictator with the hope of getting a possible “response after the
election”. That’s nuts. In a democracy, politicians seek to impress the people to earn votes. Yet, with the demorepublican dictatorship of America, corrupt politicians seek votes by making empty promises. Democrats lied to you and they lied to me. This is why I renounced instead of voting, because it is obvious that the gangsters of the demorepublican dictatorship don’t give a flying funk about Americans overseas.
There is also a Scandinavian principle, like in a carnival game, of pounding down the peg that stands out. The Democommies approve of their leader. It’s easy to see through them.
The Republifascists have no position. So-called Libertarians haven’t detected a problem. In a Scandinavian fashion—this is the ultimate situation–you can sit back and criticize everyone else.
@ USCitizenAbroad,
Re: contacting President Carter, why not try? Perhaps if he saw this as some unfinished business, he might be inspired to continue the effort, and help muster support to enable Carolyn Maloney to start to accomplish what he originally tried to do on behalf of those abroad. If he felt it was the right thing to do then, maybe he will see that it is more urgent than ever.
@Shadow Raider, what do you think about this?
@Roger Conklin, I am curious if ACA has tried this. It was from their website (I can’t find it now though) that I first saw the very interesting background re Carter, and attempts to assist US citizens abroad, have them counted in the census, provide an avenue for identifying issues faced abroad, etc. If anyone can find that information – about Carter’s efforts in that respect, it would be very helpful. I have not been able to locate it again.
Michael said –
If IBS wants to be as effective as possible in reaching out on citizenship-based taxation — which, like government raids and government overreach, precedes Obama — I would urge you to be more politically inclusive.
First off, amen to Badger 11:54 am.
But also so cute how what Michael had to say did not make it over to this new-spun thread.
ROTFLMAO when I see the Brock posse saddle up to stomp all over a voice that the karass deems displeasing, when that voice has just finished trying to appropriate the Brock love of silent invisible censorship. Michael was saying: So important to be effective (ha! – sauve qui peut), be inclusive, don’t scare people, look nice. There is nothing as ridiculous as trying to have it both ways. The Brock posse sure did a good job of shooing Michael off. It probably won’t have to block him.
Michael, your fellow scapegoat was named ConfederateH. They didn’t like what he had to say either. I can say that both of you say/said things that bug me. I can also say that neither of you bugged me nearly as much as the wooly blanket of self-satisfaction that is out to find some way to smother unpleasing sounds into silence.
@USX you make a good point about the lack of full quote from Michael, so I’ve inserted the entire quote plus the link to Pacifica’s post.
unfortunately, Joe Smith, I am not prepared—I have no good answer as to what I can do when I get something from the IRS. I have nothing to stand on. Not where I reside and not where I was born. I can’t give up my US citizenship. There is no civil liberties union where I reside. Can’t say no, can’t say yes to USA. There is public sympathy for a Jew or a Muslim or another minority, but a US citizen draws no pity.
Thanks Petros. I was just composing a comment to ask the same thing. I’m having a heckuva time getting caught up today and that helps. @ Deckard and @ Badger — Well done! And I really like the idea of contacting Pres. Carter because it’s obvious that Brock has the talent available to write that letter.