Obamacare could cost some Canadians a lot of money
My comment:
I recommend that people visit our website, the Isaac Brock Society where we the issue of US citizenship-based taxation from a much more sober and realistic point of view. Golombek, who works for CIBC, is not a good source of information on the issues of FATCA and US citizenship-based taxation. The practice of the United States of taxing “citizens” who are living in Canada is discriminatory and violation of the charter rights of all Canadian residents–and the banks, including the CIBC, plan to throw American “citizens” under the bus by instituting FATCA which they know already violates the charter and privacy rights of those they will expose to the IRS.
Golombek is clearly incorrect on the following point in his article: “This means that high-income Canadians may have to start writing a cheque to Uncle Sam for the first time in 2013.” According to the Canadian government, Canadian citizens never have to pay taxes to the United States on Canadian source income no matter how much they make, because the CRA will never collect for the IRS on a Canadian citizen, provided that they are a citizen at the time the tax liability was allegedly incurred. Golombek seems to me to be carrying water for the IRS, and he should really work much harder to get a Canadian perspective on this issue.
Also I should mention that Golombek’s sources are KPMG and Moody’s, folks that make a lot of money off your misery by charging you thousands of dollars to get your US tax affairs in order. They are very “interested” in your business.
At some point the Financial Post has to get some credibility on this issue. Using sources such as banks (Golombek), accounting firms (KPMG) and cross-border law firms (Moody’s), all of whom have millions of dollars at stake, is not the best way to gain credibility on what is essentially a human rights issue.
A message to Golombek from your friendly neighbourhood IBS rabble-rouser!
My dear Em, you have done it again. Given my little twisted mind ideas. đ ~evil guffaw~ If only ‘Gollum’bek could see this. It be worth a round in a boxing ring with him, if he wasn’t such a cowardly “watercarrier” for Odumbass!
@Bubblebustin
You commented that:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/01/12/jamie-golombek-of-the-financial-post-continues-to-carry-obamas-water/comment-page-1/#comment-139529
bubblebustinJanuary 13, 2013 at 2:22 pm
I have an idea that could get attention both sides of the border. Do you think Brockers could make the case for banning US persons from residing in Canada? There is no doubt that US persons are causing damage to Canada because of the USâs extraterritorial taxation of its citizens and green card holders. We should use this reality to our advantage. Of course it could never happen but it may make a lot of people curious as to why US persons would spearhead such an effort.
The idea of banning U.S. citizens from Canada was raised in this post:
____________________________________________
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/20/june-18-1812-june-18-2012-u-s-citizenship-based-taxation-and-other-less-expensive-ways-to-wage-war/
In particular this part – note the argument that the Charter of Rights may compel banning U.S. citizens from Canada.
“What does U.S. citizenship-based taxation and FATCA imply for Canadian immigration policy (and other countries)?
The answer is evident. Canada should not allow any more U.S. citizens to immigrate to Canada. Every U.S. citizen who immigrates to Canada is a âTrojan Horse Soldierâ who, because of obligations to the U.S., is waging war on Canadaâs economy, people, cultural institutions, sovereignty and freedom every minute of every day. Given the realities and practical effects of citizenship-based taxation and FATCA, it can be no other way. It is essential that the Government of Canada wake up to this reality.
As one commentator suggested on the ACA Facebook Page:
My specific suggestions are:
1. A complete end to accepting U.S. citizens as permanent residents of Canada.
2. The question of what to do with U.S. citizens living in Canada who are NOT Canadian citizens must be considered. Should they be required to become Canadian citizens?
3. What about Canada/U.S. dual citizenship. Should this group be encouraged to renounce U.S. citizenship?
Would a ban on U.S., citizens in Canada violate the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms?
S. 15 of the Charter of Rights reads as follows:
The first case where the Supreme Court of Canada interpreted the Charter of Rights confirmed that âcitizenshipâ is a a prohibited ground of discrimination. Therefore, at face value, a ban on immigration based on citizenship would violate S. 15 of the Charter. That said, the Charter also includes S. 1 which reads as follows:
In other words, a right guaranteed under S. 15 of the Charter, is subject to a limitation, prescribed by law, which can be justified in a free and democratic society. The existence of U.S. citizens in Canada is a threat to Canadaâs freedom and democratic institutions. Therefore, not only does S. 1 of the Charter allow for the government to ban U.S. citizens from Canada, but it may compel it.
A possible solution short of banning U.S. citizens from Canada â But It Does Require The Government To Take Action
The Government of Canada can solve this problem by:
1. Prohibiting Canadian financial institutions from complying with FATCA â peaceful resistance to FATCA
2. Prohibiting U.S. citizens resident in Canada from filing FBARs which include bank account information of non-U.S. citizens (Think of the problem of Canadian politicians.)
3. Imposing special taxes on Canadian citizens who reside in the U.S. in an attempt to repatriate the money lost to U.S. looting â as suggested by Queenâs law professor Arthur Cockfield
Conclusion â We donât want the War of 1812 to have been for nothing
The war with the U.S. is every bit as intense as it was in 1812. Wining this war will require strong political leadership and sacrifice from Canadians. If Canada does NOT take a stand now, one day Canada will cease to exist as a sovereign nation. The War of 1812 will have been for nothing!
Oh and by the way:
What is true of Canada is true of the rest of the world? If FATCA is really about containing tax evasion, isnât it easier to just get rid of those pesky U.S. citizens? Actually, itâs the cleansing the world of U.S. citizens is starting already. Hard to live in a place where you canât get a bank account isnât it!
Of course all of this could be solved if the U.S. would:
Stop citizenship-based taxation and repeal FATCA
@ The_Animal
Your ‘Gollum’bek made my day. There he is splashing around in the cave pool, taking swipes at and scaring all the little minnows. Perfect! đ
@ USCitizenAbroad
Thanks for picking up bubblebustin’s “banning” ball and running so well with it (again). This is something the Harper regime really needs to consider. How do we get this message across to them? Awhile back I e-mailed Jason Kenney suggesting that because of FATCA, citizenship applications from Americans need to be fast tracked so they can progress as quickly as possible towards a CLN (no reply) but that only solves part of the problem. There are currently “duals” residing in Canada with FATCA bombs in their backpacks and the threat of more to come. They need some kind of legal Canadian protection from those bombs and ALL Canadians need to be protected from them until the bombs can be defused. I don’t know what form the legal protection would take (make it illegal for banks to collect and transmit US person data?) but we need to make it clear that if Americans come to Canada to live they will have to leave their FATCA bombs at the border or there will be no entry. We don’t want anyone to be harmed by FATCA but protecting Canadians and the Canadian economy from FATCA fallout has to be the top priority.
@USCitizenAbroad
Thank you for your comment and the links associated with this issue.
I’m not being facetious any more. Because of my fulfillment of my tax obligations to the US I have in fact thrown Canada under the bus. I only hope I can be forgiven because doing so will allow me to eventually give total allegiance to Canada when I renounce.
The US wouldn’t put up with this crap for a minute.
@ bubblebustin
You are forgiven because quite obviously the devil made you do it. Go and renounce in peace! đ
@Bubblebustin
You have not “thrown Canada under the bus”. At this point it is clear to me that Canada is being willfully blind to this as a problem and is very much responsible for what is going to happen to it.
The simple fact of the matter is that no country should allow U.S. persons to immigrate. They are a tremendous threat to the local economy. I am weary of trying to explain this to people. It’s not that they don’t get it. It’s that they don’t want to get it or don’t want to believe.
Somebody or other said, the bigger the lie the more people will believe it. In this case the big lie is the presumed justice and fairness coming from the U.S. What is happening, is the beginning of a massive human rights violation that will result in the extinction of “U.S. citizenSHIP abroad”. U.S. citizenSHIP abroad will be destroyed by the U.S. government (massive renunciations) and the host governments (sooner or later they will not accept U.S. immigrants) that go along with this. Keep careful notes. Write prolific diaries. Yours and others will be the final experiences of people born in the U.S. trying to experience the world abroad.
At the end of the day, the current group of U.S. citizens will at some point die off, but Canada will still be left with its decision to collaborate with FATCA.
It all reminds of a dialogue between Winston Churchill and his wife:
Winston’ wife: Winston you are drunk,
Winston: Yes I am drunk, but you are ugly and tomorrow morning I will be sober.
My point:
Yes, we are U.S. citizens abroad. Yes, we will all be dead (at some point). But, the Government of Canada must forever live with its decision to surrender the country to the U.S. And make no mistake that is what it is. I am certain that it will be seen that way down the road.
There will be NO help coming from the Government of Canada. There is no cavalry. Why?
As USXCanada says: because the United States is disliked the world over, its citizens are disliked the world over. The conduct of the U.S. government has made it such that nobody cares about U.S. citizens. It is really the final Act in the long running Canadian play of:
“Anti-Americanism and other staples of the Canadian identity”
If the Canadian government wants to turn the country over to the U.S., there is not much we can do (although I have tried to get the message out) to stop them.
It does raise a question in my mind though. Surprisingly it’s this:
If Canada becomes an administrative region of the IRS, would it be better to keep U.S. citizenship?
On the other hand, do you want to remain a citizen of a country that has deliberately and “willfully” betrayed you?
That is your choice. Makes me think of the Robert Frost poem: The Road Not Taken.
So, Canada bars the doors to US citizens who are loaded with FATCA bombs and the existing infiltrators eventually die off (or are perhaps banished?) BUT what does Canada do with those sneaky little kryptonite card holders who want to come back home? You know, the Canadians who sneak across the border to live and work in the USA for a period of time. Wouldn’t they be just as likely to cause trouble too? Would it come down to IF you leave Canada to live in the USA you can NEVER return? And what about the half ‘n half couples? Will they have to exile themselves to the USA forever or divorce and go to each his/her own country? Lordy, what will happen to their kids? Will it be Solomon’s Judgment for them? You see, CLNs and I-407s are entirely at the whim of the USA. Today they are valid get-out-jail cards but tomorrow who knows? — The devil’s advocate with tongue in cheek. đ
Now, doesn’t it look much easier to just say NO to FATCA?
@USCitizenAbroad
I had the opportunity three evenings in a row to talk with three different ‘regular’ Canadians, all well educated and politically astute. I had to use many different angles and it took me a great deal of time and effort for them to grasp what I was saying and before they lost the look of someone listening to a conspiracy theorist. When I was finally able to drill through, they were very moved. Whether they are willing to take action is another story, however, I am sure that if they come across other US persons they’ll have plenty to talk about. What would be the most concise and non-hysterical way of persuading another Canadians to realize that what the US is doing is a real threat to all Canadians too? I’m starting to get very weary and need a fresh angle to keep me from feeling hopeless. If Canada enters into an IGA, I may just give up and leave everything to fate.
As per your question, If Canada becomes an administrative region of the IRS, would it be better to keep U.S. citizenship? I am quickly approaching retirement age and any benefits I would receive under a US administration would be short-lived.
On the other hand, do you want to remain a citizen of a country that has deliberately and âwillfullyâ betrayed you? Which country are you referring to, Canada or the US?
@bubblebustin:
Re “…… And what about the half ân half couples? Will they have to exile
themselves to the USA forever or divorce and go to each his/her own
country? Lordy, what will happen to their kids?….”
That is one reason why some people did not take Canadian citizenship during the time in which neither the US nor Canada allowed for duals – and they were forced to choose one over the other. Some of the adults did not get citizenship for their kids because they would have to give one up, and perhaps be separated in the future. And perhaps why some who went to the US never came back. When couples split up, if a parent decided to go back to the US, and the children who grew up here stayed – because they were raised here, they would all be separated if some chose one citizenship and the others didn’t. No-one wants to be apart from their family, and not be able to help them and be with them in times of disability and illness. I doubt that many made the citizenship decision based solely, or even mostly on the grounds of taxation, or even of economics.
That is why the IRS confounding US citizenship with the willingness to put up with all the needless punitive complexity of US taxation and reporting forced on those abroad is even more wrong. They are holding families hostage.
On some of the forums where people were deciding how/whether to come forward, part of the agony for those inside the US with a green card or some other status was that they could not just up and return to their country of origin without leaving a US spouse and children behind – who did not want to follow. So they were deciding to take whatever lumps the US dished out – in order not to be separated. Even now, the inability to travel to the US isn’t about wanting to shop, or tourism, and probably not for access to jobs. I think it is about whether we can attend family sickbeds and funerals.
I posted this on the FATCA thread as well, but can someone give it it’s own spot if no-one else has noted the featured letter below?
http://www2.canada.com/news/canada/featured+letter+canadian+shelters+offer+refuge+from+uncle/7818820/story.html?id=7818820
ââFeatured letter: Canadian tax shelters offer no refuge from Uncle Samâ Edmonton
Published: Monday, January 14, 2013â˛
âŚâŚ.âCanada is unlikely to influence the way the U.S. treats its citizens
abroad, but the Canadian government should not be complicit in making
life miserable for any of its law-abiding dual-citizen residents. If
Canada is pressured into implementing the U.S. FATCA regulations, this
should come with a complete amnesty from the U.S. with respect to past
foreign trust filing requirements for Canadian government-registered
TFSA and RESP accounts, and also the opportunity to close all such
accounts without penalty from either the U.S. or Canada.ââŚâŚâŚ.
Finally someone points out in a Canadian newspaper that Minister
Flaherty and the Harper government will be COMPLICIT if they enter into
an IGA, especially knowing that their pet TFSAs and RESPs (and the other
registered savings) are punished by the IRS, and cannot benefit those
treated as second class Canadians and permanent residents who the US
holds fast and refuses to let live an ordinary life like their fellows
here, and inside the US.
@badger
For what it is worth, I liked that letter, and posted it on 5 FATCA groups on Linkedin! đ
Thanks Just Me. Just found this more direct link – with option to comment online available;
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/business/Featured+letter+Canadian+shelters+offer+refuge+from+Uncle/7818820/story.html
Another slightly different approach to the same story, good to see it picking up steam – at least flagging the double tax problem;
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/tax-fund-obamacare-could-leave-american-expats-canada-200446419.html
“New tax to fund Obamacare could leave American expats in Canada owing Uncle Sam”
By Steve Mertl | Daily Brew “
……“Now a new law gives expats a fresh reason to hate the Yankee revenuers.”…….
@badger…
The wrap up was good.
There really is a perfect storm gathering for Americans living outside the U.S.,â said Peter Megoudis, a partner with Deloitte & Touche in Toronto.
There’s no easy answer to the problem. Even dual citizens who renounce their American citizenshiphave to prove they’re square with the IRS and wealthier citizens are subject to a hefty “exit tax.”
@Just Me, Petros, and all, it just struck me that Canada’s Fraser Institute – who is mentioned in the article below, and who has just published a collection of essays on topics relevant to Canada-US relations, has no mention of FATCA on its website at all that I can find. The essays in the collection include banking topics – ex. Dodd Franks, but not FATCA.
Wouldn’t you think it was an issue they would follow? I’m not a follower or fan of the Fraser Institute, but from reading their mission statement below, I am very surprised they haven’t taken on FATCA. They are also often quoted in the Canadian media, and their absence on this issue is quite surprising.
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/about-us/who-we-are/mission.aspx
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/research-news/research/topics-display.aspx?topic=115&name=Canada-US+Relations
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/research-news/research/topics-display.aspx?topic=133&name=Taxation
See this article, http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Barack+Obama+government+poses+risks+Canada/7829280/story.html#ixzz2ICPaoVyh
“……….consider a recently released collection of essays by
Canadian and American scholars. In The U.S. Election 2012: Implications
for Canada, the dominant theme was economic âuncertaintyâ and its
effects. Whether itâs taxes, deficit reduction, interest rates,
inflation, energy, or trade, American policy uncertainty was shown to be
adversely affecting the U.S. economy as entrepreneurs, businesses, and
investors delay making decisions. But itâs not just a U.S. problem; such
uncertainty south of the border will also threaten jobs, income, and
general prosperity here….”
…”Then there are the new financial regulations in the U.S. based on the
Dodd-Frank Act, which carry another set of risks for Canada. University
of Edmonton professor Moin Yahya estimates that about half of the
expected regulations have been written with the remainder coming over
the next few years. While the impact of Dodd-Frank on the U.S. financial
system is highly uncertain, the impact on Canadaâs financial system is
even more unclear. That is because specific provisions which deal with
foreign banks do not yet have final rules confirmed. Moreover, other
provisions will apply inadvertently to Canadian companies that happen to
be doing business in the United States. According to Yahya, Dodd-Frank
will likely reduce the efficiency and profitability of Canadian
financial institutions just as it has with American banks…”
…”Understanding the risks and costs being imposed on the Canadian
economy by U.S. policies will, at the very least, allow us to better
manage such risks.”
“Jason Clemens and Alexander Moens are the
editors of The U.S. Election 2012: Implications for Canada, released
recently by the Fraser Institute and available at http://www.fraserinstitute.org
Funny the Fraser Institute should come up. Last night I watched a documentary about the North American Union and it was one of FI’s own (Herbert Grubel) who came up with the idea of the Amero. This would be an institute I think which would be delighted with FATCA, DATCA and GATCA and any other tie that binds nations to the USA and destroys their sovereignty.
@Em, their website on one hand says they are for ‘economic freedom’, ‘greater choice’, and ‘less government intervention’ (except if it helps their pet causes?). No matter where they might come down on the issue of FATCA, it seems right up their alley – it is very curious that they haven’t published something, or been quoted in the Canadian press about it.
Further, they say; “The Fraser Institute provides a useful public service by reporting
objective information about the economic and social effects of current
public policies.”
So what is their position on the imposition of two layers of conflicting government tax systems on > 1 million Canadian citizens and permanent residents? And if they are for ‘economic freedom’, the US FBAR and FATCA laws and penalties are the exact opposite of any ‘economic freedom’ as they prevent 1,000,000. and their households from banking and investing in Canada, as they see fit – using tools that the Canadian government provides as incentives. They also say they are for ‘greater individual responsibility’ – but if we’ve got no decent options to save and invest without it being punished and confiscated by the IRS – reaching over into Canada, then the individual is being prevented, by a ‘foreign’ government (the US) from exerting individual responsibility in order to save for the future, retirement, education and disability.
You wouldn’t think that the Fraser Institute would miss an opportunity to criticize the potential for Canadians to pay for Obamacare either. Or to criticize extraterritorial double taxation – imposed here from without.
So what is the reason they have not addressed either issue?
I think the Fraser Institute’s libertarianism is more concerned with corporate freedom than individual freedom but then again they did come down on the right side of the census long form debate. It is odd that they haven’t come up with something about FATCA.
@badger
I believe that Jock Finlayson, Executive Vice-President at the Business Council of BC is closely associated with the Fraser Institute. He is a regular contributor to Business in Vancouver, a publication I’ve been hounding for months to cover FATCA, having told me they would, but haven’t yet. Mr Finlayson wrote this piece back in November. Note the only comment:
http://www.biv.com/article/20121120/BIV0102/311209938/-1/BIV/fate-of-recovering-us-economy-in-the-hands-of-the-countrys
So who is going to write this Fraser Institute and ask the pertinent questions?
Twitter account is @frazerinstitue
https://twitter.com/FATCA_Fallout/status/291775709054111744
Pingback: The Isaac Brock Society - “There really is a perfect storm gathering for Americans living outside the U.S.” @yahoonews
The story was picked up here tooObamaCare Tax Will Hit U.S. Citizens Working Abroad
@Just Me,
I will leave the Fraser Institute to those IBS readers who may be better able to formulate arguments in their language, and save my efforts for those who I have more affinity for. At the bottom of my comment, there is a list of some of their affiliated journalists at Canadian media outlets.
However, given that they are big vocal opponents of Canadian expenditures on healthcare, I find it entirely odd that they are not out front opposing Obamacare taxing Canadian citizens and residents inside Canada. See”………The institute’s director of health system performance studies, Nadeem Esmail, writes in National Post, Globe and Mail and the Wall Street Journal on
health care policy and reform — his writings repeatedly depict
Canada’s public health care as a financial sinkhole and urge
privatization while warning readers in the U.S. not to emulate Canada’s system.”……..
They have big corporate funders from the US, including the Koch brothers (of Tea Party funding fame). http://www.vancouverobserver.com/politics/2012/04/28/us-republican-koch-oil-billionaires-help-fund-fraser-institute-why-fraser?page=0,0 http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Fraser_Institute http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/04/26/koch-brothers-fraser-institute_n_1456223.html
Many of their members/fellows are regular journalists writing in the Canadian media, and they run training sessions for journalists.
Mike Harris, the Conservative former premier of Ontario is a fellow. And another member is described as a mentor of our Prime Minister, Stephen Harper.
So again, I ask, why the silence from the Fraser Institute on increased incursions of US extraterritorial, citizenship-based double taxation, and unwarranted intrusion into our personal banking and investments via FBARs and FATCA, plus this latest Obamacare double-tax to be applied to us on autonomous, sovereign Canadian soil – especially in light of the indications that some kind of FATCA ‘conclusion’ is expected to be imminent – according to the only comments we have from Canada’s Finance Minister Flaherty?
@bubblebustin, the Fraser Institute has lots of journalist members in the Canadian Media, but not much that I can find (in an internet search only) where they have weighed in against FATCA, or against Obamacare extraterritorial tax of Canadian citizens and residents, or against the incursions of the IRS into Canada, or against the US FBAR intrusions into our non-US family banking and investments.
For anyone who wants to contact them, here is a partial list of some of them:
Source: Jenny Uechi, Vancouver Observer “U.S. Republican Koch oil billionaires help fund the Fraser Institute. Why the Fraser Institute?”
Posted: Apr 28th, 2012
…….”Some famous figures include Ezra Levant, a Sun media columnist and author of Ethical Oil, who came to intern at the Fraser Institute after a fellowship with the Koch Foundation. Kathryn Marshall, political
commentator and former Ethical Oil spokesperson, was also a development
associate at the Fraser Institute. Wildrose leader Danielle Smith took
on an internship with the Fraser Institute during her twenties that
âimbued her with a passion for Ayn Rand and charter schoolsâ, according
to a recent Walrus article. She became an intern with the encouragement of Tom Flanagan, a Fraser Institute senior fellow and Stephen Harper mentor. Vancouver Sun editorial pages editor and columnist Fazil Milhar is the former regulatory studies director at the Fraser Institute.
The
top tier at the Fraser Institute is filled with highly-respected
economists and researchers whose names and faces are constantly present
in national newspapers.
Fraser Institute’s president, Niels Veldhuis, is a respected economist who has written over 200 commentaries in publications such as The Economist, The Wall Street Journal and The Globe and Mail. In March 2011, he co-authored an article in The Financial Post titled, âWe need Scott Walker here.â ……….”
I see this article here in the Financial Post http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/04/10/we-need-one-voice/ by “Peter M. Brown is chairman of the Fraser Institute, a member of the
executive committee and board of directors of the Investment Industry
Association of Canada, a member of the Canadian Securities Transition
Organization and a member of the Economic Advisory Council to Finance
Minister Jim Flaherty” and he said this about FATCA:
Brown says ….”the U.S. has enacted unprecedented legislation, the Foreign Account Tax
Compliance Act (FATCA), to require foreign financial institutions to
report investment holdings of Americans, under threat of deducting full
withholding tax on dividends and interest on U.S. investments at source.
This law has struck fear in many innocent dual-citizen Canadians, and
could add significantly to the reporting burden of Canadian firms
without apparent corresponding benefit, and militate against the
efficiencies in our capital markets. The Canadian investment industry is
actively engaged in consultations with the U.S. Treasury and the
Internal Revenue Service on the details.”……
So is the reason that we have not seen a spate of hard hitting articles by Fraser Institute affiliated journalists because of the banking and investment industry’s push for a Canadian IGA – to take the heat off them from reporting directly? Or has there been another tradeoff?
What is behind the sudden silence and seeming reversal of our Finance Minister Flaherty – from our brave and outspoken champion as represented here; http://business.financialpost.com/2011/09/16/flaherty-takes-on-irs-over-tax-crackdowns-in-canada/ to the tiny and obscure notice on the Dept of Finance website here http://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/notices/unitedstates-etatsunis-eng.asp , and now, his only recent comments quoted indirectly, with no other explanation, in the Canadian media, that talks are “near conclusion”.
I believe that Canadians – citizens and residents, deserve to hear what our government is giving up (and thinks it is getting) in FATCA talks with the US. What is the real deal?
And, we have all done good work writing and e-mailing Canadian politicians across the political spectrum. Where are the public comments from them?