#americansabroad can’t even get empathy from “homelander” parents isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/12/27/fat… – How can the #FATCA attack be better explained?
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) December 28, 2012
I am either a fool or an optimist but I believe that 2013 will be the year that the plight of U.S. persons abroad will begin to be heard. In anticipation of that, it is time to think carefully about and to sharpen the message. What is clear is that:
– Homelanders don’t seem to be able to understand how “US citizenship abroad” is next to impossible;
– the Democrats which have the power to do something about this don’t seem to be willing to do so. The recent “form letter” from Democrats Abroad is proof of the way that the Democrats have betrayed U.S. citizens abroad (and I am not sure why). No doubt some of you reading this will default into “The Republicans are just as bad” mode. We don’t know that. What we do know is that the Democrats are a big big problem. It may be as simple as the following mindless reasoning:
Homelanders can’t understand Americans Abroad.
Democrats are Homelanders.
Therefore, Democrats don’t understand Americans Abroad
Hell, Geez comments that he can’t even get this parents to take an interest in his plight (they might even have voted for Obama). I think the problem is captured in the following comment exchange to a recent New York Times article:
_____________________________________
- Ex-patriot soon to expatriate
- Canada
In addition to paying taxes, residents of other countries who were born in the U.S. are required to file mountains of “information returns” at great cost. Failure to file will subject the person to huge penalties – generally $10,000 per return.
Furthermore, these “US persons” are disabled from normal retirement planning and investing (including mutual funds and some pension plans). It is a huge problem which has led to an acceleration of renouncing U.S. citizenship.
For these reasons, US born children are not good candidates for adoption to non-U.S.parents.
In addition. people born in the U.S. are not desirable as:
– business partners
– marriage partners
– shareholders
– employees
The US is the ONLY country that behaves in this way. It is absurd and dangerous.
Search on google: “citizenship-based taxation” “FATCA” “FBAR” “PFIC” “renounce citizenship”
-
- Mark Thompson
- Chicago
Those born in the U.S. are automatically U.S. citizens and therefore should be obligated to comply with U.S. laws regardless of country of residency.
Of course, one could renounce your U.S. citizenship & relinquish your passport.
However, I don’t see why a non-resident U.S. citizen would think they shouldn’t have to comply with U.S. laws regardless of how other countries handle the same situation.
-
- Tom Storm
- Coolangatta, QLD. Australia
While I understand the plight The Russian Government faces with orphans, the tragedy really lies with the children themselves and I hope the Russians act in the best interests of their kids. Most American adoptive parents treasure their children and offer love, security and a life of opportunity. A Russian orphan could do a whole lot worse than be adopted by an American family.
On your other point about taxing Foreign residents – the US and Australia (for example) have a taxation treaty which avoids double taxation. If Australia taxes a US Citizen or resident the double tax agreement kicks in and no tax is due in the US on the Australian income. And vice-versa.
The US has these arrangements with numerous countries – the following IRS link is a starting point.
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International-Businesses/United-States-Inc…
Tom Storm
______________________________________________
What can one make of this comment exchange? I believe these three comments tell us a lot about the dialogue between US persons abroad and Homelanders.
Comment 1: Ex-patriot soon to expatriate could be found on this site. It explains the problems of US persons abroad. But, by focusing on the result it avoids discussing the foundations of citizenship-based taxtation.
Comment 2: Mark from Chicago is a bit like “Brave Jim in Houston”. He believes that US citizens should obey US law not matter where they are. His reason: you are a US citizen. This reasoning assumes that citizenship is a form of ownership.
Comment 3: Tom Storm is the Professor Ackerman of Australia. There is no problem because there is a tax treaty that prevents double taxation. This comment assumes that citizenship-based taxation is okay, but then avoids the issue by saying that because of a tax treaty there really is no problem.
Since Mark and Tom clearly assume that citizenship-based taxation is justifiable our educational endeavors need to focus on citizenship-based taxation. We need to work on how this is described. The focus needs to be on the fact that citizenship-based taxation is really code for “taxing the residents of other countries and forcing them to pay tribute to the U.S.”
I encourage comments on what should be the correct language to educate Homelanders.
For an explanation of “Brave Jim in Houston”, see http://righteousinvestor.com/2011/12/04/dialogue-with-brave-jim_in_houston/
Also, I’ve given up trying to educate the stupid homelanders. It can’t be done. We have some natural allies in the United States, mainly libertarians (e.g., Ron Paul). But the rest of them are fighting against us.
My only hope is that we can convince the US patsies in our own foreign governments to refuse to comply with FATCA. I.e., they need to get a pair.
A potential step is to get ahold of any famous US person abroad or a famous dual citizen inside USA (that is, if they aren’t terrified themselves) to be a public anti-FATCA messenger.
*I won’t be much help here. When I did activism in the US, I came to the conclusion that I can’t change America for the better. It is up to the homelanders to decide what they want to do. So, I pretty much agree with Petros. One cannot educate the homelanders, but they can educate themselves if they want to.
Yet, if one is bored and has some spare time, then one can refute the arguments made. Create the best rebuttal to comments 2 and 3 that other expats can use to help the homelanders to want to educate themselves.
@USCitizenAbroad
Can you come up with a punchy hand bill I can give to passers by or post on community bulletin boards? Something we can maybe give to link to Isaac Brock on?
Pingback: The Isaac Brock Society - Russia’s US citizen ban on adoptions getting press
@Bubblebustin
We all need to work on the “tag line” or “Tag lines” – please post here. @Petros is making thing that Homelanders are disabled by from learning much.
But, I have faith in them – I even know some.
My responses to these comments would be:
1. It’s not that US citizens abroad shouldn’t comply with US laws. It’s the US that shouldn’t try to impose its laws on people in another country, because they are not under US jurisdiction but subject to the laws of that other country (except the very few government representatives with diplomatic immunity). In the area of taxation: the reason taxes exist is to raise revenue for the government to provide services to the people. People outside the US, regardless of citizenship, do not benefit from any US government services, so accordingly they shouldn’t pay taxes to the US. They benefit from services by the country where they live and should pay taxes to that country, as they already do. Every other country and territory in the world and every US state and territory understands this.
2. Every US tax treaty contains a “saving clause” that says that the US may tax US citizens as if the treaty didn’t exist. The double taxation agreement doesn’t “kick in”. From the very US treaty with Australia that you mentioned: Notwithstanding any provision of this Convention, except paragraph (4) of this Article, a Contracting State may tax its residents (as determined under Article 4 (Residence)) and individuals electing under its domestic law to be taxed as residents of that state, and by reason of citizenship may tax its citizens, as if this Convention had not entered into force. With very few exceptions like social security, tax treaties do not prevent double taxation of US citizens.
Homelanders continually re-elect people who serve the interests of corporations at their expense. Just look at the FISA vote, which extends the right of the USG to spy w/out probable cause or warrants on the texts and emails of its own citizens. Obama will happily sign this and the bill will extend into the next president’s term.
Homelanders are sheep. They don’t care enough about themselves to try and change things, so why would they care about “traitors” and “tax evaders” living abroad?
If you are cursed with US citizenship, you are the property of the USG until you can obtain citizenship somewhere else and shed the US taint (although you will always have to deal with the fallout of having a US birthplace or parent.)
One of the best angles, I have seen so far, is to drive home the cost of FATCA and taxation creep to the ppl in other countries so that they come to see it as theft by the USG and spying/fishing due to the reporting. Pin the blame of the USG totally and start comparing US citizens to those who fled the USSR. Forget the homelanders. Its the citizens and govts everywhere else who need to be woken up.
@A
You are right that the governments and citizens of other countries need to be woken up. But this is not either or. I believe that it should be “all of the above”. The idea is to “educate the world”.
Homelanders are simply not qualified to discuss issues surrounding US citizens abroad…
… just like civlians who never served in the military or are not married to someone who has served in the military are not qualified to discuss issues surrounding the military
I simply do not waste my time discussing expat IRS issues with homelanders who have never taken up residency abroad. Why? Because very soon I won’t have to deal with this BS anymore when I relinquish.
The message from America’s ex-pats should be straight forward:
“Enough is enough; we’re not going to take it anymore!”
For long term ex-pats, citizenship-based taxation provides nothing in return other than never-ending misery.
Long term ex-pats have little chance to remedy the situation because they are disenfranchised from the US legislative process. The Americans Abroad Caucus is not representation. Its members are not elected by ex-pats and it casts no votes in Congress in the interests of ex-pats.
To live a normal healthy life, ex-pats have no real possibility other than to renounce or relinquish US citizenship.
The more ex-pats who go through with renunciation/relinquishment, the louder the message will be heard.
The most effective action is the ten-toed vote exercised by each affected US person. Walk away from the evil uncle forever. This one thing that you can do – something that only you can do. Then tell your story freely and proudly at every opportune occasion. Just last week I told a person I was meeting for the first time about my recent renunciation. A US consulate has recently attested to a “wave” of renunciation, a wave that they clearly refuse to deal with in an open and businesslike manner. Anyone who wants to play the human rights gig should think about concentrating on the United States and its Soviet-style treatment of slaves who just want to get free. Vigils outside US consulates – shambling human bodies, bags over heads, draped with chains – will trump any quantity of turgid screeds whose wasteful place is bought from the very media that perpetuates the lies and trickery and servile client-state compliance.
How about trying https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/
*The statement that tax treaties beetween the US and other countries “avoid double taxation” is not correct. Such treaties may mitigate double taxaxation but each and every one of these treaties clearly acknowledge the right of the US government to subject its citizens resident in the other country to US taxation.
The tax laws of the different countries are often so different that these tax treaties mean little to US citizens living abroad – unless the the foreign system mirrors the US tax system – which few of them do. There is invariably income which is tax free in the foreign country which is taxed under US law. Tax incentives provided by foreign countries are rarely recognized as such under US tax law, so what the US citizen person in the foreign country saves in foreign taxes by taking advantage of these incentives is penalized, usually dollar-for-dollar, by increasing the tax due to the IRS.
In many coungtries there are no capital gains taxes. So the US citizen has no foreign tax credit to offset the US tax on these capital gains. Many foreign countries have net worth taxes which subject assets to an annual tax based on the value of those assets. Not one penny of this net worth tax can be used to offset the US tax on capital gains when these assets are sold.
Likewise, some countries raise there revenue primarily through consumption rather than income taxes, In fact they have no income tax whatsoever. Yet no US tax treaty recognizes these consumption taxes as either deductible or creditiable against the US tax obligation on foreign income.
Given this reality, it is absolutely false to assert that tax treaties avoid double taxation. Period..
@Roger, very true. And don’t forget that the Value Added Taxes (GST in Canada) which the US doesn’t have, also creates an additional tax burden on expats for which they get no credit. Also, the last in time rule has meant that Alternate Minimum Tax applies to expats who live in countries which have treaties. The problem is that the United States does not keep its treaties but can change the agreements unilaterally at any time. The tax conventions, thus, are worth less than nothing.
Yet the stated purpose of the tax treaties is to avoid double taxation. That makes these treaties absolute failures, and they need to be torn up or completely overhauled to actually achieve it’s laudable purposes.
Jim Willies latest column discussed the new asian trade sphere that has excluded the US
and her satellites (NZ, AU) and how China’s FX swaps work. I found it
quite interesting the measures they are taking to avoid any connection
to the toxic US finance markets and obviously IRS, CIA and NSA
monitoring or disruption. FATCA and all the IRS imperialism is starting
to kick back hard and the US is being isolated, mostly self inflicted.
The other interesting item is the Turkish gold exchange being based in 1 kilo bars. Screwtapefiles had a great piece about the missing chinese gold
that is somewhat related. So Shanghai and Turkey are going to take
over as the new non-western bank manipulated gold markets,
apparently based on 1kilo bars. That’s great, LGD bars are 400oz (not
exactly though) and quite unwieldy. So the asians are going to not
only avoid the mistakes the western bank syndicates have made, they are
deliberately setting up a non-compatible system to exclude the US and
the UK. Slowly Europe and other western countries will be peeled away
from the US/UK banking axis.
The last person who really challenged US/UK banking hegemony was old Kaiser Willhelm.
Ahh.. I thought maybe other people have experienced the same “numbness” from US relatives and then I see you quoted me. To answer the question, I don’t know who hey voted for because I never asked them. Keep in mind, I’ve lived outside of the US for more than a decade. When I leave, I never go back. Now with all of these human and capital controls, I’ll probably never go back.
A good tidbit for whoever may be reading this: Spain announced that they are going to offer a streamlined residency-process to anyone who invests more than 160,000 Euros in property there. It’s maybe a good start to having a Spanish/EU passport. According to my old friends, I have “Portuguese” habits, but Spain is close enough!
*geeez, I’ve tried to go back to America many times. There are many good things about America and it can be a very nice place to live, while the news often exaggerates the situation. One can live in America without experiencing many of the problems one reads in the news. Yet, every time that I moved to America, I missed Europe. In Switzerland, I often find myself much more in agreement with the political structure, the infrastructure and the culture. The last time that I visited the US, I got all upset because they gave me a ticket for parking in the other direction. This is unheard of in Europe. At least I didn’t get a ticket for jay-walking that time or bicycling through a red light, though. I’ve learned that I can’t change America, but I can choose to live in a sustainable city. Everyone is different and many people can enjoy living in the US. But, my home is where people can walk and bicycle without needing to be car-dependent. This is my home now:
31.03.2012
well, come on up to northern Europe, where parking tickets are considered Revenue far above and beyond parking meter Revenue.
*Mark Twain, it’s not the parking ticket itself that bothered me, but rather the idea that it is unacceptable to park legally on the side of the road, but facing the other direction. I don’t understand why such is a big deal, so I guess that I’ve been living in Europe for too long already!
*@SwissPinoy, Cultural differences. My wife comes from Cresson, a small town in the Alleghney Mountains of Western Pennsylvania where the steep streets run up and down the mountains. They are narrow so there is parking on one side of the street only, so the culture there is to park headed either way on that one side. By state law it is strictly illegal but nobody, neither the mayor or the police chief in Cresson observes that law and nobody ever gets a ticket for parking heading the wrong way/ But everywere else I know of in the US the law is enforced with a vengeance.
*@geeez, Please allow me to suggest that you don’t jump at the first alternative (Spain) that you have happened to hear about, but check and compare some other countries as well. Spain, along with Greece, is at the moment a European economic basket case with very high unemployment and dim prospects. I am not saying you would, but you might end up worse off than you are now. There are many countries that offer residency, and some even almost immediate citizenship, if you transfer capital funds to invest when you move there. But certainly you would not want to transfer them and lose them. I have not checked them out, but some others tell me that Costa Rica and Belize might be good places to consider. But I suggest only you look closely before you leap. Remember the grass almost always looks better on the other side of the fence; at least until you get on the other side of the fence and see it up closer.
*
Roger Conklin, sounds like if Cresson built a castle in a walled city, then I could feel just at home living there! Maybe I should introduce the idea to the city mayor. 🙂
I wouldn’t want to side with the penalizers–but having headlights facing you from the right isn’t desirable.
When the primary objective is Revenue, rather than safety, there is something wrong.