Editors note: The Progressive Canadian Party has now sent out its official press release. Let’s pull out the stops for this event–show the media and our politicians that they must not tolerate FATCA. Email your MPs and the media. Use your facebook and twitter accounts. And above all, show up for the meeting if at all possible. Speakers will include Jim Jatras of Squire Sanders and Professor Allison Christians, H. Heward Stikeman Chair in Tax Law at the McGill University Faculty of Law. One fringe benefit will be that you can meet other brockers in the area (including Petros–yes, I will be participating). Thanks to everyone in advance.
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
A Fact Finding Forum on US Tax Grab in Canada
“The American government is attempting to tax permanent residents of Canada whom they deem to be U.S. citizens.” said Sinclair Stevens, Leader of the Progressive Canadian Party. “This contravenes Canada’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms and must be challenged.”
The Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) was signed into law by President Obama on March 18th, 2010. Originally to come into effect the 1st of January, 2013, it has been postponed one year. Briefly, it attempts to catch ‘U.S. persons’ (which includes, by their definition, a very large number of Canadian citizens) living abroad who are not paying income tax to the U.S.A. It by-passes the usual inter-governmental agreements and imposes the reporting of income and personal information on financial institutions in all other countries directly to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service … and that for no remuneration.
“Financial institutions which refuse to cooperate in this gathering of personal financial information are threatened with an enormous penalty – a 30% with-holding tax on all income on investments coming from the US to their clients. Can you spell ‘extortion’?” Stevens continued, “This expands the impact of FATCA from just ‘US persons’ living here to all Canadians who have investments in the US and may well force Canadian banks to increase their banking charges for all their clients.”
“In addition, to recouping unpaid income tax back several years it imposes very large penalties for non-reporting on such deemed ‘U.S. persons’.” Mr. Stevens added.
Finance Canada has posted a notice on their website soliciting comments on FATCA. The Progressive Canadian Party (PC Party on the ballot) will be making a submission.
So that the submission can be as complete as possible the PC Party is convening a fact finding forum at the University of Toronto on Saturday afternoon, December 15th – doors open at 10:00 for an 11:00am start. (see directions below). We have invited ‘expert witnesses’ from the legal and financial fields to provide further details on this international “extortion” attempt and to discuss suggestions from the audience for possible corrective actions including legislation.
“All Canadians, even those who have only a bank account, should be concerned and are invited to attend and participate in the discussions with our ‘expert witnesses’, Mr. Stevens said. “The press are particularly welcome and should see this as a convenient opportunity to get comment from both experts and concerned Canadians.”
Further information on the forum, including the speakers who have accepted our invitation, will be available shortly on our website http://progressivecanadian.ca/ .
The forum will be held in Room VC115 of Victoria College, 91* Charles Street West,
[*accessed via a one-way street between 89 (Burwash Hall) and 93 (Isabel Bader Theatre) – drop off only].
For both parking and travelling by subway the target is Museum Station on Queen’s Park. Parking is accessed on southbound Queen’s Park just after the subway station. After parking you should cross Queen’s Park via the subway station. On exiting the station you will be facing Emmanuel College and will have to go around either end to Victoria College which is exactly behind it.
This was stated in the CBA Director of Banking Operations (Darren Hannah) submission to the Treasury and IRS hearings on FATCA last May:
“The regulations are complex, are yet to be finalized, and are incomplete. Financial institutions cannot expect to start building systems until the regulations and the FFI agreement are finalized…Therefore we are recommending that FFI’s get an 18-month implementation window from the time they enter into their FFI agreement.
…and then he goes on to say how great IGA’s are.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:-FGubIGud8gJ:www.cba.ca/contents/files/presentations/pre_20120515_irsfatca_en.pdf+&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgqgLFn4DOE5vMllQHYgK21uxHNfaVJtAaXtNdt2IWRtvbjeU_JFwdGsGVCGDb3mZinZw3lrfGQ6J1TVyvFHlC42SvwKFjemjNjRe3AOlNb2yw_riOS38Df7ioDCJMwyBGvTv1w&sig=AHIEtbTdj5CsrsbKj5Ft6gdz4dhhVxe9-g
@Christophe
There are a couple of Facebook sites that cater to Canadians in the US that I post stuff on. They register a pretty good reading and sometimes get a response. Some know about filing obligations, some don’t. It’s difficult to gauge the awareness level with them, but I imagine that they in general aren’t any better informed than your average Joe in the US. One person said that they’d wished they’d been informed about citizenship based taxation before getting his green card.
You might want to bring along some business cards. We handed these out and put them on the refreshment tables at the FATCA meeting that Paul Dewar hosted inOttawa
The Isaac Brock Society
IsaacBrockSociety.ca
@pacifica777 🙂 thanks!
@Hippocampe you say:
“I’m obsessing over a thought as the date of the Fact Finding Forum on US Tax Grab comes closer. What if the FATCA decisions have already been made for us? What if we go to this meeting baring our hearts and souls and find it is just a way of making it look like our goverment is listening to our concerns? Are we really being taken seriously or is our fate in the hands of people who don’t understand how our lives are being destroyed?”
Winston Churchill once said:
“This is the end of the beginning”.
At the present time the Government is NOT listening to our concerns. It took a little known political party (not one of the majors) to organize this conference. Furthermore, the text of the invitation of the Department of Finance is so vague that most people would not even know what they are referring to. The invitation includes no description of FATCA. Hence, it is not an honest request for submissions from the public.
Even if an agreement had been signed it would only mark the “end of the beginning” of a long struggle. Any agreement would still be subject to a review by Parliament and ultimately to a challenge under the Charter of Rights. So, this is going to be a very long haul. It is very important that you and as many as possible attend and assist with the stated goal of compiling a submission to the Department of Finance.
We may need the agreement and the resulting court challenges to get this issue in a public forum. So, remember that the “prospect of an IGA” is one battle in what is certain to be a number of battles in this long war.
Hang in!
We really need some committments from Toronto Brockers as right now, we have had virtually NO response. I have tweeted as many different target areas as I can think of; a few politicians, lots of media and as many expat-oriented groups as I can find. The Kijiji classified ad has 181 views and hopefully some of those will show up. I also found another online place to post the same ad but no way to track views. I don’t know what else I can do at this point.
@NobleDreamer16
Why just Toronto Brockers? Who knows how many there are? If people don’t attend that sends a strong signal that nobody really cares about this issue. If nobody cares, then there is NO chance of getting any traction. If people do attend then at least there is evidence that some people do care! If there is evidence that people do care, then there is a chance of getting some traction.
I would suggest that anybody who is capable of getting to Toronto, regardless of where you are, should be there. Bring a friend.
Some of the advertised speakers are coming a long distance to participate. I don’t see that these speakers have any direct stake in this. I don’t see the “Progressive Canadian Party” becoming he government any time soon. Hence, it doesn’t have a direct stake either. Surely any Brocker (who does have a stake in this) who can find a way to come to Toronto should be there.
@Nobledreamer
If you have this on Kijiji, then what about getting on Craigslist?
@Renounce,
Of course, as many as possible but other than Petros and myself (and possibly one other person), there are no Brockers that we know of that will attend. So reaching out to Toronto first. However, the more the merrier!
Just did that! These classified-type ads don’t take the place of real display ads but people do see them. So better than nothing. Up to 130 tweets and running out of ideas there as well.
http://yourclassifieds.ca/detail/45C48B211d91830D43vUy2362802
Yourclassifieds ads show up in the classifieds of any of the 111 or so online Metroland papers. They used to offer tracking and could quickly see upwards of 1000 views, but for some reason, they aren’t offering that now. This ad also will also show in the side scrolling section, but it’s not up yet.
http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/eve/3472586846.html
http://www.expatriates.com/classifieds/local_news/
http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-community-activities-groups-Fact-Finding-Forum-on-U-S-Tax-Grab-in-Canada-W0QQAdIdZ431686629
People see the Kijiji one because the logo/link is in the top banner of the frontpage.
http://www.metroland.com/Communities/
Good effort, nobledreamer! I’m hoping there’s a decent turnout. I think there have been about a dozen relinquishers in Toronto that we know of from the Brock Consulate Report. Hopefully some of them are still tuning in here and will support the cause by attending. Great chance to meet fellow Brockers too.
Renounce –
If people don’t attend that sends a strong signal that nobody really cares about this issue. … Surely any Brocker (who does have a stake in this) who can find a way to come to Toronto should be there.
To dissect assumptions. First off, I would make a reasonable effort to attend, because over a year ago I made a decision to “invest” in the issue of US treatment of extraterritorials and so have an interest in the facets of this ongoing story. Among core Brockers I detect similar addictions.
That said, I have also put pragmatism in a primary position. Sauve qui peut. Solve the problem at an individual level. Phil Hodgen set the seal on the planning that I had largely executed already: “Get out while the getting is semi-good. Don’t wait for more time.” (Let usxcanada take this occasion to express joy at CLN recently received.)
So my ongoing interest relates to documentation, analysis, story, history, personality, and assisting victims. For me, this is not a campaign in which “traction” is to be obtained. I think that states like US and Canada, issues like citizenship and taxation, and scales like the macro worlds of globalization and international finance can be nothing more than seas to be navigated with good craft. To those who believe that the policies of the US and Canada can be affected by anything more than the sum of individual concrete actions (like expatriation to honor freedom in the face of oppression), I say: Have fun, but count me out.
A few practicalities. (1) Canada promises to become evermore unlike the myth that many cling to. So many are so clearly engaged in ongoing struggle with the tatters of the US myths that geographic distance and IRS mistreatment have rendered visible to them. (2) Brockers are a tiny flock of coalmine canaries. Hordes of ostriches are headed for slaughter. (3) Victim syndrome manifests in situations where open identity cannot connect with organizing and action. (4) While lurkers persist in seeking glimmers of solutions to their particular unresolved potential liabilities, those who have managed to sail clear of the reef lie exhausted by months and years of complexities and efforts. (5) US extraterritorials are minor collateral damage to very satisfying ideological sallies, as far as the mean mother country is concerned. (6) US extraterritorials have the potential to become ever more despised financial lepers in the countries to which they have dispersed — ambulatory founts of infection until they shed their US disease.
*People would care if they actually knew about it. One gentleman I met earlier this year in Canada was actually told by his accountant to stop filing with the US because it was no longer necessary. He had been filing from Canada since the age of 18. Before I met him, he had never heard of FBAR or FATCA. He managed to get his paperwork together before the June deadline.
I intend to be there on Saturday, although I can only stay until about 2pm because of a prior engagement. I hope we have a good turnout. If I knew more US persons I would certainly tell them about it. Unfortunately, the one’s I have told are skeptical about the whole issue. They refuse to believe that 1. The US can tax them even though they have no financial ties, and 2. they don’t believe the US will be able to access any of their Canadian bank info.
*Has anyone thought of recording the seminar??? I’m not a technical person, but I’m sure there must be a way to record and post on YouTube.
@Marie
I’m driving down from Ottawa to record the proceedings. It will require a few days to package, encode and upload the individual presentations to YouTube, but I’ll try to post them one or two at a time as soon as they’re ready. More details to follow after the event.
@usxcanada
Congratulations on your proof that you’ve been ‘CLeaNsed by fire’. Great synopsis.
@all
I can’t make Toronto, but would assist in Vancouver hosting FATCApalooza sometime in the near future!
If you are someone who’d like to attend, but are afraid of being ‘outed’ as a USP, why not wear a mask? The practicality and symbolism of doing so would be profound!
@UsXCanada
Enjoyed your enumeration of the practicalities. I invite you to elaborate on each in a separate post. Not sure that I agree that people cannot make a difference. If people do NOT speak up there is a 100% guarantee that nothing can be achieved. If people DO speak up, there is a chance no matter how small it may be. The necessity and practicality of solving the problem on the individual level is irrelevant to contributing to a discussion on a a public level.
Your prognosis is includes the statement that Hordes of ostriches are headed for slaughter.
Perhaps, but it also appears that coming into tax compliance is also going to the slaughter. Anybody in OVDI will attest to that. I suspect the probability of slaughter depends on how much or little you have.
@Marie,
It is a PUZZLEMENT: “They refuse to believe that 1. The US can tax them even though they have no financial ties, and 2. they don’t believe the US will be able to access any of their Canadian bank info.”
Just thought I’d make something 100% clear. My family and I are attending the U of T meeting because we wish to express our concerns with the implementation of the FATCA (US tax grab). We have huge issues with the level of discrimination when you are seen as being black (low risk) for having a retirement savings. Our government may think it’s quite fine bailing out the US but why does it have to be our resposibility? Shouldn’t the rest of Canada take some responsibility?
@Hippocampe
The rest of Canada should take responsibility in part because this is a matter that affects ALL Canadians. Badger has made this point repeatedly and eloquently. Here is an excerpt from a post I did earlier that illustrates this point:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/20/june-18-1812-june-18-2012-u-s-citizenship-based-taxation-and-other-less-expensive-ways-to-wage-war/
The IRS has not relaxed its stance one bit. All that the IRS has done
is to go back to a previous position which said that if you owe no tax
then there will be no penalty for having filed late or not at all. The
current law requires penalties for neglecting to file even if no tax is
owed. To characterize the reinstitution of the previous policy as a
policy “relaxation” is to give credit where no credit is due.
The fundamental problem is that those who have tax due are just as
innocent of knowing about this law as are those who do not have any tax
due. A true amnesty would include this group of people who were also
just as ignorant of the filing requirement as were those who just happen
to have been fortunate enough to not owe any tax. If you truly
understood the complexity of U.S. tax law with regards to taxation of
none residents then you would know that there is virtually no way that
anyone who has lived outside of America for any length of time is going
to be able to get away “penalty” free.
The final thing that I would like to point out is that all Canadians
should be angry about U.S. taxation of its none resident citizens
because it affects the Canadian economy and is therefore not a merely
private issue between the U.S. and its citizens.
When the U.S. imposes tax obligations on its citizens who have their
earnings and wealth in a currency and economy other than that of the
U.S. then what is being taxed is not the U.S. citizen but rather the
economy of another nation. These U.S. citizens who have no earnings or
wealth that is based in U.S. dollars but rather in Canadian dollars are
actually being FORCED at the barrel of a gun to take Canadian dollars
and convert them into U.S. dollars so that Canadian wealth can be used
to fund the U.S. government.
When it comes to situations like this then what you have is two national
treasuries that are playing a zero sum game. Every Canadian dollar
that is converted into a U.S. dollar and handed over to the U.S.
Treasury is robbing the Canadian Treasury and the Canadian economy of
Canadian spending power, Canadian wages, and the fruits of Canadian
productivity. Just think about it for one minute. Under the U.S.
system of citizenship based taxation it is theoretically possible for
the U.S. to become the second biggest expense to the Canadian balance of
trade if U.S. persons were to become a significant portion of the
Canadian population. In other words the last nation from which Canada
now wants to draw immigrants is that of the U.S.
The U.S. tax regulations also impose significant invest restrictions
upon U.S. persons who live abroad. Investments such as mutual funds,
RDSP’s, TFSA’s, Pooled Pension Plans, income splitting etc. are either
outright not allowed under IRS rules or if they are allowed they involve
so many expensive form filing requirements as to negate any return and
therefore mean that these U.S. persons cannot contribute to the Canadian
economy. Their inability to contribute to Canadian capital is a cost
for them and for Canada.
Now contrast this with the situation of a Canadian who lives in the
States who is not under investment restrictions from CRA. It becomes
obvious that the U.S. is actually in an hypocritical position.
I could say much more but I hope that I have said enough to prove my
point that this is not some kind of harmless “tax” policy. This hurts
Canada which means that even if you aren’t an American it hurts YOU.
@renounce
Do you still have editing time to get some paragraph breaks in that last post? 🙂 Makes it easier on my failing eyes!
For the attendees, masked and unmasked, here is some inspiration (I hope).
“Invictus” by William Ernest Henley
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
@bubblebustin, renounce,
I tried to make it work to travel to Toronto, but even with the help of a Brocker benefactor and air miles, unfortunately not.
As bubblebustin, I would be available to assist if some person with influence were to host one of these forums in Calgary. It would be great if the Toronto effort takes off and that can continue in other Canadian cities.
The best of luck to all who are able to be part of this event in Toronto!
A special thanks to nobledreamer for all you’ve done in getting the word out locally — a lot of work!!
Them’s fighting and inspirational words, Em.
Those attending the Toronto forum are masters of their fate and captains of their souls. We at Isaac Brock and others may yet awaken a “sleepy, complacent” Canadian populace. Thanks to all of you!!
@marie, calgary411
“They refuse to believe that 1. The US can tax them even though they have no financial ties, and 2. they don’t believe the US will be able to access any of their Canadian bank info.”
Let’s not confuse can’t with shouldn’t. And it won’t matter one iota what Canada or the US should or shouldn’t be doing once the ostrich feathers start flying.
@bubblebustin and marie,
Right on!! Shouldn’t, unfortunately, doesn’t count people. And, we should be conveying that at every opportunity to our government representatives.
Thanks for the emphasis, bubblebustin.