A Fact Findg Forum on FATCA will be held in Toronto. Everyone nearby should consider attending this rally. Here is the announcement:
The Federal PC Party (Progressive Canadian) of Canada is calling ALL CANADIANS (Liberals, NDP, Conservatives, ordinary citizens, et al) to stand on guard for Canada and Canadian sovereignty!Plan to attend a Fact Finding Forum to preserve Canadian sovereignty and keep Canada a free and independent nation!Who: The Honourable Sinclair Stevens, Federal PC Party leader, Party President Dorian Baxter and othersWhere: University of Toronto – Room TBA (click for updates)When: Saturday December 15, 2012 – 9:30 a.m. – 5:00 p.m.In 1961, on May 17th., President John F. Kennedy addressed the Parliament of Canada. During the address President Kennedy, commenting on the special friendship between Canada and the U.S., stated:“Geography has made us neighbors. History has made us friends. Economics has made us partners. And necessity has made us allies. Those whom nature hath so joined together, let no man put asunder.”Neither President Kennedy nor Prime Minister Pearson in their worst political nightmares could have ever anticipated this second, dastardly, unprovoked, unprincipled and utterly unconscionable U.S. assault on Canadian sovereignty!!!For updates and evolving information: http://StopFATCA.wordpress.comFurther information:PC Party President: Dorian Baxter (289) 221-2687PC Party National HQ: (905) 853-8949
Make sure you listen to Anne Soukup (see videos below) who does a awesome job in her discussion US Expat problems with Goldstein on Gelt. She and Mary Lou Serrato are doing a great job of lobbying for Expats. Yet I take issue only with their use of the imperative: “Americans Abroad must” pay taxes. In many cases, the United States tries to illegally extort taxes from dual nationals or people who are no longer American citizens, in some cases by reinstating their citizenship against their will. To whom must a dual national pay taxes if resident in their non-US country? Obviously, not to the United States, since the international doctrine of Dominant Nationality applies. If the US wants to tax them, they are violating international conventions on nationality and are attempting to enforce barbaric forms of perpetual loyalty against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. So I would say in contrast to ACA: The United States must leave us alone.
Meanwhile, Victoria tells us that she paid $9000 for her 2011 taxes, including taxes on her French unemployment benefits!
Phantom gains: Because we had sold our last piece of investment property that year, I was aware that I would be paying capital gains on the sale and was prepared to the cough up a couple thousand U.S. dollars. What I did not know was that I would “make” more money on paper because of the different exchange rates: from Francs/Euros to U.S. Dollars. That was something of a shock but even so I’d heard that this is a frequent problem for other Americans abroad – this issue of “phantom gains” on property or mutual funds that come about simply because we (Americans abroad) are doing business in local currency but the U.S. government insists that everything be converted to U.S. dollars using the IRS-approved exchange rate for that filing year.
Unemployment is not Earned Income: I was unemployed and collecting French unemployment insurance for the year 2011. To my utter disbelief this income is not excludable under the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. So basically it appears that I had to pay American taxes on my French unemployment benefits. Amazing.
So what was the final damage? 9,000 U.S. Dollars (late filing fees and interest included).
So Victoria, soon to be French citizen, pays more taxes than the 49% and what does she get in return? The right to visit her family in the United States. That’s the only tangible benefit to compliance (=”not being a lawbreaker” in the eyes of the US only). I went to a walk-in clinic yesterday and presented my OHIP card and received a consultation. US citizens resident in Canada perhaps can tell us what other benefits they receive from paying taxes to the US. Certainly not heath care or food stamps (snap!).
In other news, the United States Senate is consider sanctions that would make illegal Turkey’s gold-based trade with Iran. Apparently, the barbaric relic is a threat to the barbaric United States, since it is having trouble enforcing its financial hegemony over Iran and Turkey. Stop, stop, stop trading: the United States says so. Finally, Intrade is shutting down the accounts of Americans. Canadian journalist are mourning the loss of Mark Carney, head of the Bank of Canada, who plans now to blow financial bubbles for the Bank of England. Brockers have suggested that Jon Corzine, Douglas Shulman or Timothy Geithner, all of whom are currently out of work, replace Carney as the head of Bank of Canada. That way, when the Canada signs the IGA, there will be a Washington insider calling the shots at the BOC.
Catch up on Mary Lou Serrato, who spoke to Goldstein on Gelt in August.
@WhoaIt’sSteve,
I’ve been one of “them” since 1969 when I took landed immigrant status in Canada and became a citizen in 1975, at which time I was told I was relinquishing my US citizenship. Guess what, I was an adult; I knew that I wanted to live and raise my family in Canada. I have lived as one of “them” ever since until this nightmare that the US has foisted upon me. I didn’t know that my accident of where I was born denied me the right to live anywhere I want to live — yes, among the all of “them”.
@The_Animal Ahh you seem like pleasant company. The only thing wrong with your scenario is anything that’s bad for the United States is worse for the rest of the World, thanks to our interconnected globalized World. I think a better solution would be to lobby and pressure to end the global tax responsibility of Americans. I’m not sure how you envision the United States dissolving? What do you think successor states would be like, and what do you think the rest of the World would be like? I don’t want to live in a World torn apart by war and economic downturn, I’m not sure why you do.
@calgary Then it should be easy to get your documentation and move on with your life shouldn’t it?
@WhoIt’sSteve,
…and non-punitive. The penalties and fines assessed for us to prove to the US that we do not owe one cent to the US is horrendous. I have spent 10’s of thousands of dollars to have tax returns prepared, then re-prepared as one professional did not file 3520 and 3520A’s for the account that I save money for my adult son — his Registered Disability Savings Plan, which the Canadian Government provides and encourages us to save in. It is unbelievably taxable in the US. Here are my US tax returns and all back-up from 2005 – 2011. The white binders on the table are the re-done 3520 and 3520As for 2009 and 2010 and my 2011 US tax return. I owe the US $0.00. I have renounced my US citizenship (again); await my Certificate of Loss of Nationality and am paying off my Line of Credit, little by little, to have come this far. The US Consulate did not have to, and did not, advise me of any adverse consequences to renouncing my citizenship.
Here are photos of mine: calgary411 US Tax Returns & Backup, 2005 – 2011
@WhoaIt’sSteve,
What is your definition of easy? Does it include retirement savings? Does it include sleepless nights? Does it include being painted Tax Evader and Traitor? Does it include making a choice to not cross the border again to see relatives with my adult son who is developmentally delayed. I will have my Certificate of Loss of Nationality. As a Parent, Guardian or Trustee of my developmentally delayed son, I do not have the right, even with a court order, to renounce the US citizenship of my son (who was born in Canada, raised in Canada, never registered with the US, never lived in the US, never had the benefit of the US) even if I consider it in his best interest — I make other such decisions for him. The nice border guard could ask my son, “and, is this your mother?” I am his mother, therefore he is a US citizen — with no choice that I can make for him. Is he better off as a US citizen than as a Canadian citizen. Absolutely NOT.
@WhoaIt’sSteve,
Have you ever considered that the world might not be at war and economic downturn were it not for the insanity and cost of the US Military Industrial Complex? Have you seen any of your time on earth when your country was not “at war” somewhere or other?
@ The_Animal
Thanks for your reply. I don’t FB or use online albums so I guess I’ll just look forward to more of your posters. Take care and if you see a drone — DUCK! 🙂
Just wondering when the IRS is going to put this advertisement in all the foreign newspapers. ~bleeping~ EXTORTIONISTS.
That made me duck! Sadly, also made me think of the horror caused by these death machines. They are the epitome of psychopathy.
@WhoaItsSteve
‘Then it should be easy to get your documentation and move on with your life, shouldn’t it’.
Isn’t this the point of what many of us are saying. I have been in Canada since I was 18 years old, became a Canadian in 1972 and was told by the U.S. consulate that I had ‘permanently and irrevocably’ relinquished my citizenship. The Vancouver consulate has at the present time, had me obtain a 4th birth certificate and a 3rd marriage license. Yes, I did say 4th birth certificate. Now if it were easy ‘to get my documentation’, why on earth would the consulate (the same Department of State that told me back in 1972 that my relinquishing act was permanent and irrevocable), insist on 4 birth certificates. Do you see the irony in all of this, Steve. They told me back in 1972 that I was a ‘citizen no more’ and now they are saying to me – oh, we can’t give you that CLN document to ‘prove’ you are a citizen no more, because we don’t accept the documents to prove you once were a citizen. Yeah, right just get those documents and go on with your life. God, I would love to do that!
Oh, and by the way, you want to do this at the Vancouver consulate – next appointment is sometime in June 2013.
@Bubblebustin:
You mentioned: “FATCA will see the end of American global migration.”
Edward Karr, Chair of the American International Club of Geneva, indicates in this interview that job prospects for Americans to work overseas are declining due to FATCA (at 4:00):
” Brockers have suggested that Jon Corzine, Douglas Shulman or Timothy Geithner, all of whom are currently out of work, replace Carney as the head of Bank of Canada. That way, when the Canada signs the IGA, there will be a Washington insider calling the shots at the BOC.”
OH HELL NO!!!!
If Canada gives either of these three thieves a job, I swear to God, I’m going to quit paying my Canadian Taxes and go to jail willingly for Canadian tax evasion. No bloody way!!!
Or tell the BOC, that I’d be willing to recommend to the RCMP investigation for breaches of banking privacy by giving a “foreigner” the keys to the National Bank of Canada. Letting an American, especially an ex-IRS GOON be head of a Canadian bank is tantamount to TREASON against Canada.
************************
The_Animal – IBS’ resident rabble-rouser and pitchfork waver. I’m Canadian, eh?
@Whoa
Steve, I appreciate you’re being here and listening to what we have to say. It is interesting to have a “homelanders” perspective. It is great that you feel positive about the country you live in. I can understand why it is unthinkable for you to give up the right to live where you do, and to become part of “them” , as you put it.
However, I’m sure you realize that we do not live in the US. People who live other places are normal people just like you, who happen to live somewhere else. I feel exactly the same way you feel about your homeland, about my homeland, which is Canada, where I was born and live. I’m sure you would have no problem “giving up” a right to live in Canada (if you suddenly found yourself given that right) , because you have no intention of ever doing so.
You suggest that if we don’t want US citizenship we should “just give it up”. Easier said than done. When I first looked into it, it might have meant I would have to continue to file US tax returns for another 10 years. It was hard to tell. The accountant, (who offered to do the relatively simple tax forms for me and my children for$1000/yr each) recommended against it.
When I next checked, the 10 year rule was gone, but the forms were getting progressively more complicated. The new accountant said he had reason to believe the US would soon prevent anyone who had renounced for any reason from ever traveling to the US. He recommended against it. It made me thing twice because I am the only responsible child of an elderly parent living in the US. I am going to renounce anyway, but the possibility, small as it is, that it might prevent me from seeing my mother, is hard to dismiss.
In the meantime, my Canadian husband refuses to allow us to have any joint bank accounts, because he doesn’t want the IRS sticking it’s nose in his affairs. We are unable to do any of the tax planning that is available to other normal Canadians. If I sold my house, the IRS would claim that I owed them Capital Gains tax on the property (which was purchased almost entirely with Canadian earned money from my husband). The list goes on….
Furthermore, the process of renouncing involves swearing under penalty of perjury that you have fulfilled obligation to the IRS for 5 years. The forms are unbelievably complex. Even the accountants can’t agree on what they mean. The penalties for minor mistakes can be horrendous.
You (or your accountant) may have no problems doing your tax forms. Good for you. Your forms are designed to fit in with the financial system in the US. You get information slips which are easily transferred to your tax form. My information slips are designed for the Canadian tax forms. They don’t give me the information the IRS requires.
If it were easy to do any of this, the IBS wouldn’t be here. So please try to remember that you are among a group of people who are feeling abused and trapped by the complex rules your country has imposed on them.
Steve probably likes America, not because he has a good accountant, but because he’s one of the 49%. It’s a great deal, when expats like Victoria pay your way. But that is not frankly something to be proud of.
People should be proud of their independence and for carrying their own weight, not because they can successfully leech off of others.
@Innocente Thanks for that video. I think that Karr evoked some of our issues, but… He talks about USP assignees to US company branch offices (for 2 years or so, etc.). He recognizes the difference between very rich USPs and the “middle class”. But what he does not address is the issue of USPs that stay for a long term in a foreign country and/or possibly have the citizenship of that country. USPs that work as an assignee have some of (as part of their expatriate package) the [army of lawyers and accountants] that he states richer Americans have access to in order to ensure compliance, as well as (I suppose) some sort of compensation against the adverse effects of US policy. Private citizens that choose to live abroad, and are not part of some company expatriate package are really in a bad way. Many of us are local citizens of the country that we live in, or of some other country to which we feel more attached to than to the US.
PS: I never worked for an US company abroad. I have always been a local employee. Thus, I really feel the brunt of (unintended? but stupid) unconstitutional/extraterritorial US tax policy abroad.
@Petros lol it’s 47% and no actually I had to pay the IRS this year $1400 freaking dollars.
@Petros
Steve probably likes his country because it’s his country, which is as it should be.
I realize that there some here who have issues with US internal policy (ie your comments about “the 47%”) I suspect that issue is actually way more complex than anyone looking for simple talking points is willing to look into, but I want to be clear that to some of us, including me, how the US arranges it’s internal affairs is none of my concern because I don’t live there. I just want to be left alone.
So Steve, I support your desire to be a good American. I hope you can support mine to be a good Canadian.
@Innocente,
Thank you for posting another interview, very descriptive of what is going on — in Switzerland and other countries around the world. Edward Karr outlined what US citizenship-based taxation and reporting means in the situation normal US workers in other countries have to deal with, to say nothing of the same for permanent expatriates in whatever country.
@innocente
Will we go out with a bang or a whimper?
@Steve, the United States has a regular budget of 3.84 trillion dollars in 2011. That is about $12,000 for every man, woman and child. If you paid $1400 in 2011, then you were over $10,000 short of paying your per capita fair share. Victoria, who lives in France, paid $9000, from her frigin’ unemployment cheques from the French government. I think you owe her an apology. She paid your fair share of taxes for you.
@CanadaDoc, I am not typically the patriotic type. I think we have countries because we need to provide certain things at the collective level, especially security from violent threats to our lives. But one should attenuate pride in one’s nationality with a sober assessment of the pros and cons of one’s country. There is a lot about Canada that I think is very good, and I am thankful to live here. But I don’t go onto some First Nation’s website, for example, telling those folks how proud I am of Canada.
@Animal Thanks for the belly-laugh with your Photoshopped version of the Predator! Sick humour, I know, when you think for a moment about how those things are used and what they do to innocent bystanders, but it’s no different from what the USAF was doing to Vietnamese civilians on both sides of the DMZ 37-46 years ago. Nothing new, except the technology used to do the same thing. But sadly your image and adjustments to it (and wording) reflect the harsh reality of a substantial part of US foreign and military policy ever since the end of WWII, under all subsequent presidents and Congresses, one of the main reasons I’m now a Canadian and not an American and wrote the letter I did to Henry Kissinger in 1976 on the occasion of the US Bicentennial, which got me my CLN a few months later. Which I’m proud of (of both my Canadian citizenship and my CLN).
The US of today is nothing remotely like the country I was taught about in high school and grew up loving, if that country ever really was the country I was taught about — which I’ve doubted for decades now. Not my country any more, never will be, and thank God for that.
@CanuckDoc you guys won me over a long time ago, I support ending the tax requirements for Americans abroad, or at least simplifying the requirements and creating easily accessible and straightforward methods and practices for Americans abroad to file if we have to keep the regulations in place.
I’m just at a loss for understanding why you all aren’t pragmatic and have adopted the victim mentality, if a situation like this was causing to me the utmost harm that you all are portraying no rock, nor cost would be too much to alleviate myself of this “burden.”
Instead the times I come here I’m met by comments of people who seem to have given up content with their new life in their new “home” country, or those who have just morphed in to anti-American zealots, who harshly criticize everything about the country including its people. Instead of a positive community to help other Americans abroad, this place seems more like a misery loves company den, with a by the way they’re all going down and will be dead or suffering soon… side served right next to comments about how the US and IRS is up there with the Nazis ready to confiscate these poor masses of now foreigner’s treasures.
I read comments about how they feel betrayed or abandoned by the US, when they’re the ones that left the country? The US didn’t betray you, you left, what are we supposed to do, fall to your feet because you have this such great perspective on America now because you’ve embraced a foreign culture? (Like other foreigners believe they know the country better than we do? Yet most don’t know the difference between Washington State, and Washington D.C, so yes please tell me about how you know what’s best for and wrong with the US.) No, be pragmatic if you don’t feel that you are American any longer, never wish to return, file your forms, pay your fee, and move on, be a mega-success that makes us mad at ourselves for having oddball regulations and harsh laws and penalties that made you want to leave. My dad is an entrepreneur he founded 3 companies on his own, and 2 with partners, he’s my hero and he’s said to my brothers and sister our whole lives don’t whine, that gets you nowhere, figure out the problem, find the solution, and work as hard as you can to make it happen. It makes me sad and frustrated to read what you guys write here because you’re just sitting around being negative.
@Petros Umm, weird, you understand my check was on top of what was withheld correct? I’m about done coming here because like I just said it’s all anti-American rhetoric and demonizing the Government and Americans. No solutions are offered here only misery loves company. Good luck with your life sans US citizenship.
@whoaiststeve
Why do you whine about our whining when you could just stop visiting Brock? My husband was born in Canada and is a US citizen through his father and have never lived or worked in the US and must contribute 6 figures (and counting) to the US in order to renounce US citizenship. I’d like to know how pragmatic you’d remain in his circumstance.
@WhoaIt’sSteve,
Fair enough you perceive us as whiners. That is your choice. If we’ve won you over on ending tax requirements for Americans abroad, have you done anything from within the US (like some who are here) to discuss with your government representatives the extra-territorial consequences of the US’s citizenship-based taxation — or is your support? reserved for commenting on this site? As a citizen of the “best country in the world” do you believe anyone from the US has the right to live wherever they wish for whatever reason brought them there — as a part of their country’s “democracy”? We feel betrayed, correct. Abandoned by the US, I don’t think so. We just don’t want to be accused of accepting all the great benefits of the US for which we are imposed with other than resident-based taxation. We get the benefits of the countries we live in and pay our taxes to those countries. Remember, this is NOT about taxes owed to the States — it is the punitive posturing of the US for compliance of those that were traitorous (is that a word?) to leave. When will the US be a partner of other countries, rather than the boss or the bully of other countries? We are talking of the US robbing our countries’ treasuries, money that should be spent in our countries abroad, not sent off as our penalty fees for existence abroad.
Tell us, where in your US education and to what extent, did you learn of the realities of citizenship-based taxation and that the US is the only country, besides Eritrea, to follow such extra-territorial practice?
It makes me sad and frustrated to know you don’t really “hear” what we are saying. And, you’re of a family who has done well — that’s fine and dandy. How about those of us abroad who are not doing as well and don’t have a voice, to say nothing of those within your own US. We speak for that population abroad too. This is a life-changing situation we are in, after years of the US turning a blind eye to “compliance”. We were lulled into complacency, yes, but the US did NOTHING to inform us. In fact, many of us were told we had relinquished our US citizenship when we took Canadian and other citizenships decades ago. We were busy living our lives as productive citizens in the countries where we live — not thinking we had to check in on what US law had been changed year after year.
PS — Well, Steve, I see by your last comment you have left the room while I was typing. Thanks for trying to understand. I’m sorry you haven’t.