298 thoughts on “Top Priority: Canada seeks input into FATCA negotiations with US”

1. @Jim Jatras- you have to make an account for yourself in this site. Once you have an account you can post messages.

   [adminstrator’s note: people don’t make accounts for themselves but are invited by the administrator. Petros]

2. Jim: If you want to start a new thread, e-mail it to me and I can post it for you.

3. *Edelweiss.  Canadian financial institutions do not ask your place of birth.    They might ask a new account holder  ‘are you a US person?’.    It’s easy to answer ‘No’.   Bob’s your uncle.

4. @Jim Jatras- the Canadian media is more concerned with the proposed buyout of Nexen by CNOOC than it is about the imposition of U.S.. law on an extraterritorial basis.

   All of which I find to be very laughable. On the one hand the Chinese are offering to purchase a Canadian resource and accepting that the their purchase will not allow them the ability to circumvent or write Canadian law. While the Americans are forcing Canada to rewrite Canadian law and at the same time the U.S. is threatening to penalize the Canadian economy by assessing 30% penalties on all U.S. payments that are destined for the Canada as a means of forcing Canadian cooperation. Along with forcing Canadian financial institutions to conduct covert surveillance of Canadian residents for the IRS in order to determine the applicant’s U.S. person status.

   What we will have is the U.S. “emigration service” working around the world. 

   The whole situation is unbelievable and sad.

    

5. @Recalcitrant, exactly right. When I see the media show utter fear of China, I just become livid. For some reason, they can look down their noses at China, but when Exxon buys a similar property, no big deal. Yet it is the US that is imposing its will upon Canada, not China.

6. @petros Will do.  On its way in 5 minutes.

7. @ Jim Jatras

   I would happily contribute to the cost of any anti-IGA campaign — all I need is an address to send a cheque to. Also, one of badger’s recent comments should have some good ammo in it for you use …

   “I think an important point is that if a Canadian household has
   even one person in it with US status – it effects everyone – as assets
   and potential liabilities (as per the ongoing threat of double taxation,
   inability to hold joint accts because of IRS arrogant demands to know
   even about those held with non-US citizens – compromises Canadian-only
   account holder spouses, inability to hold TFSAs, PRPPs,  etc.). The
   toxic US status drags the whole household down – it is not just the
   effect on the US status individual. For every one of those > 1
   Million US persons in Canada, there are spouses, children, joint acct
   holders, business accts, employer accts, Power of Attorney issues for
   end-of-life planning/estate issues, etc.). Each one of those households
   would be spending money on specialty US tax accounting and legal fees
   annually for a lifetime – money not being saved for retirement, or spent
   on necessities. If you cite those examples, they cannot dismiss it as
   an issue that Canada has no responsibility to ameliorate. The faster we
   can renounce, the faster our entire household is freed from the
   shackles.“

   @ all

   I have a letter almost ready to go to the Dept. of Citizenship and Immigration asking them to consider fast tracking Canadian citizenships for Americans residing in Canada but I’m not sure where to send it. I could hold my nose and e-mail it to Jason Kenney, a minister I have a deep seated disdain for, but if anyone knows a more general mailing address such as the one we used for the Dept. of Finance I would appreciate knowing what it is.

8. @Edelweiss

   In the event Canada or any other country were to sign an IGA, I think it should also protect its citizens by DECIDING what the penalties will be for the people they’re giving away. At the current level of fines inside and outside OVDI, such delation is equivalent to extraditing people to be executed. Foreign countries simply cannot accept that.

9. @bubblebustin, @All,

   I just had my call from Kevin Shoom returned. He listened patiently and thanked me for taking the initiative to call and to prepare and present a submission. He was familiar with my name and remembered my story from previous correspondence to my government representatives. I expressed my disappointment that it appeared from the Globe and Mail that this was a done deal, Canada’s signing onto an IGA with the US. I told Mr. Shoom that I had been so proud (to this point) of Canada not caving into the US so far and with Finance Minister Flaherty’s promise to Canadian citizens and residents regarding not collecting FBAR penalties for US citizens, as well as residents, in Canada and not collecting income tax assessments or penalties for US citizens in Canada, from the time they became Canadian citizens. I indicated that this was an issue that should be presented to ALL CANADIANS as it will be a cost to ALL CANADIANS and the CANADIAN ECONOMY.

   I had this up on my computer screen and read it to him, as it seemed appropriate:

   So, the silence of Mr. Flaherty and other federal cabinet ministers is because they are caught on the horns of a dilemma. The US has indicated it intends to destroy the lives of a large number of your citizens and residents. If you try to stop them, they promise to destroy your financial system.

   I also had on my computer screen, but did not discuss:

   There are said to be upwards of one million (so-called) US citizens in Canada. In a population of 34 million, that is about 3 percent. Some of these are compliant with IRS rules; many are not. But this 3 percent does not exist in isolation. It includes individuals with non-US spouses, with in-laws, with colleagues at work, with friends, with a whole range of people connected with them by ties of family, employment, and affection. Most non-dual Canadians know some number of US citizens or duals in their midst.

   If the average Canadian knows a few hundred people, the average Canadian politician knows many times more than that, which means they inevitably know dual citizens. Here is the deal: if you are a cabinet minister (or a member of the caucus), how do you look your cousin’s wife in the face, the secretary in your constituency office, the husband of your campaign manager and say, “I conceded to American demands that will destroy your savings, your pension, your life, that will rob you of your home, that will insure that your children cannot get an education and will leave you to sleep under bridges in the summer and in shelters during the winter”?

   US persons and dual citizens in Canada are not organized, but they are ubiquitous. If destroyed, they will not disappear; they will be there as a source of shame forever to the politicians who betray them.

   When finished my submission will be sent by email to finpub@fin.gc.ca, with a copy to Kevin.Shoom@fin.gc.ca. (I will also cc Prime Minister Steven Harper, Finance Minister Flaherty, my MP Michelle Rempel, among others.)

   I will also send a hard copy to:

   Department of Finance
   17th Floor, East Tower
   140 O’Connor Street
   Ottawa, Canada
   K1A 0G5
   Attention: Kevin Shoom, Business Income Tax Division

   I asked how if he had many queries regarding this submission. He indicated “only a handful”.

   Please call and indicate your concerns to Kevin Shoom at: 613-992-2980.

10. @calgary

    good job. I’m now off writing to newspaper editors. The long weekend’s over, where is the press?

11. After sending Mr Shoom my budget submission, he sent me this response:

    Thanks for your letter.  I also appreciated the opportunity to speak with you today.  Please be assured that your views will be taken into consideration.
     
    Regards,

    Kevin Shoom 

12. Good points @ calgary411. I forgot about that earlier post you cited, ex. “US persons and dual citizens in Canada are not organized, but they are ubiquitous.” which reminds them that for every one of the >1 million Canadian citizens and resident voters with the US shackles, there will be all those other voters the Conservative politicians and staffers will know firsthand. This will come back to bite them as it is a non-partisan concern – no one wants to pay double taxes or have the US demand and then compromise their legal financial details when we already dutifully give them to the CRA. I think that even Conservatives would realize why this is wrong and find it hard to support. This is something that would be a no-brainer across party lines. I don’t think they realize just how many of their friends and family and co-Conservatives are going to be among those affected – as you quoted “If the average Canadian knows a few hundred people, the average Canadian
    politician knows many times more than that, which means they inevitably
    know dual citizens. Here is the deal: if you are a cabinet minister (or
    a member of the caucus), how do you look your cousin’s wife in the
    face, the secretary in your constituency office, the husband of your
    campaign manager and say, “I conceded to American demands that will
    destroy your savings, your pension, your life, that will rob you of your
    home, that will insure that your children cannot get an education and
    will leave you to sleep under bridges in the summer and in shelters
    during the winter”” That’s great phrasing!

    I don’t think they will publicly acknowledge what they think they’re getting in this trade off by entering into an IGA, and throwing 1/32 Canadian citizens under the bus, but certainly Canadian banks and other financial institutions – particularly those that are almost more American than Canadian – like TD, want to continue with their access to the US (Canadian bank concessions – ex. TD bank http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904253204576510590825735486.htmlhttp://business.financialpost.com/2012/11/05/td-bank-purchase-of-citizens-bank-would-make-it-top-5-in-u-s/ 

    Or, is it really a matter FATCA concessions, vs. trade agreements? Are Alberta oil and the pipeline involved?

13. @badger, @bubblebustin,

    The words I had on my computer screen and which I put in my comment are not mine. I don’t have time to go search the author — someone from Isaac Brock! I thought at the time those thoughts were brilliant. I will use them in quotations in my submission to Mr. Shoom, which I will email soon. I should spend more time on it, but I want to get it done — I say that I am renouncing my US citizenship tomorrow.

    Good point, badger — is it realy FATCA concessions (are we US citizensin Canada being bargained away) for trade concessions? Thank you — about to copy and paste.

14. Here is my submission which I emailed to Mr. Shoom (and he replied promptly that they would take it into consideration):

    Dear Mr. Shoom:

    My name is Peter W. Dunn, and I have grave concerns about the implementation of the FATCA regulations in Canada and the prospects of an intergovernmental agreement.

    I am the founding administrator of a website called the Isaac Brock Society. We have been in operation since December 12, 2011, and have had about 1.3 million pageviews. The website is host of a very active online discussion with many residents in Canada of United States origin and also a few Canadians now living in the United States. Our participants feel attacked by the United States because of its attempts recently to enforce its citizenship-based taxation laws, Foreign Bank Account Reports, and most recently, the 2010 regulation called FATCA.

    They are concerned because FATCA will expose their ordinary Canadian, law-abiding finances to the potentially capricious and confiscatory penalty regime of tax code and the Bank Secrecy Act (viz. FBAR) of the United States. I believe that once the IRS learns of the bank accounts of wealthy Canadian residents, they will begin a policy of sending 50% FBAR fines to the account holders here in Canada. This is implied when the IRS explains why people must enter the OVDP program:

    Taxpayers with undisclosed foreign accounts or entities should make a voluntary disclosure because it enables them to become compliant, avoid substantial civil penalties and generally eliminate the risk of criminal prosecution. Making a voluntary disclosure also provides the opportunity to calculate, with a reasonable degree of certainty, the total cost of resolving all offshore tax issues. Taxpayers who do not submit a voluntary disclosure run the risk of detection by the IRS and the imposition of substantial penalties, including the fraud penalty and foreign information return penalties, and an increased risk of criminal prosecution. The IRS remains actively engaged in ferreting out the identities of those with undisclosed foreign accounts. Moreover, increasingly this information is available to the IRS under tax treaties, through submissions by whistleblowers, and will become more available as the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) and Foreign Financial Asset Reporting (new IRC § 6038D) become effective.

    Thus, the only reason why the IRS would need the bank account information of Canadian residents and citizens is to be able to assess draconian FBAR fines against them. This is the explicit policy and intention of the IRS. Hence, they urge people to enter the Offshore Voluntary Disclosure Program while there is still time (i.e., before FATCA).

    Then, Canada will have a major problem with the United States, when its wealthier residents start receiving fines at 50% of the highest yearly account balance. Please, protect the residents of Canada from the overreach of IRS. Also, please protect Canadian citizens who now live in the United States and who have RRSPs and other savings accounts in Canada from this same overreach.

    I can tell you that many of our participants at the Isaac Brock Society are angry, afraid, depressed, and some have even mentioned suicidal thoughts.

    These concerns can’t be totally new to you, since you undoubtedly are very much aware of the Finance Minister’s statements regarding FATCA and US taxation of Canadian residents. I, for one, am very happy that Mr. Flaherty has taken a strong stance, and it has given me courage to stand up for Canadians in the public eye. But let me say, my sense on the ground in this battle is that we need much more protection from the Canadian government. Ultimately, the United States wants to tax the wealth of Canadian residents of US origin, and doing that would weaken the tax base of the entire country. This makes it a concern for all Canadians. So please, I would urge the government of Canada to take a strong stand against FATCA and to defend the privacy rights and the Charter rights of all Canadian residents, not least of all, those of United States origin.

    I have many other concerns about how the Government of Canada needs to protect its citizens of US origin. I would very much appreciate the opportunity to speak with you on the phone.

    Sincerely,

    Peter W. Dunn
    Adminstrator, Isaac Brock Society

15. @calgary 411

    Good luck tomorrow. How are you feeling, a mixture of dread and elation? Break a leg!

16. @Calgary,

    I found you mentioned Northern Shrike when you quoted it on Sep 16 in the “Speech by Jim Flaherty Last Fall to US SIFMA Conference in NYC,”  thread.   You made a comment, where you said,

    “It ties in with NorthernShrike comment on another thread: …. So, the silence of Mr. Flaherty and other federal cabinet ministers is because they are caught on the horns of a dilemma. The US has indicated it intends to destroy the lives of a large number of your citizens and residents. If you try to stop them, they promise to destroy your financial system.”

    I can’t seem to find the original post by Northern Shrike, though.

17. @Pacifica,

    Thanks — that’s right. Too good not to put to use Norther Shrike’s wonderful words. I hope he doesn’t sue me.

18. Thanks very much, bubblebustin.

    I have the letter and Moby’s submission to the Australian government ready to sign and pdf so I can email to Kevin Shoom.

    Documentation to take to the Consulate is ready to go. (I work best under pressure.)

    I am feeling OK and some relief that tomorrow is finally the day. Show time.

19. @ calgary 411

    You will be in my thoughts tomorrow. Walk tall and keep your eye on the prize — that precious CLN!

20. Thanks so much, Em! I will.

21. @Calgary,

    You will have a terrific day tomorrow!  Thanks for all the support you have given me and all of us!

22. Thanks for sending and posting your excellent submission, Peter. Mine has now gone as well.

23. *@Calgary411, You must be so excited! Good Luck! We will be thinking about you tomorrow..

24. Thanks, pacifica and thanks, saddened.

    Everyone here has helped get me to that appointment, having cancelled the first one to make sure everything is A-OK. No more false starts.

25. @Petros

    Great submission. I suspect Mr Shoom is about to embark on a big learning curve.