The exact text is:
NEGOTIATION OF AN INFORMATION EXCHANGE AGREEMENT WITH THE UNITED STATES
November 8, 2012
Negotiations are being held between Canada and the United States on an agreement to improve cross-border tax compliance through enhanced information exchange under the Canada-United States Tax Convention, including information exchange in support of the provisions enacted by the United States commonly known as the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA).
The purpose of this bulletin is to inform persons whose interests are affected by the provisions of FATCA that the Government is actively seeking a solution to issues raised by such provisions. The Government of Canada has received input from many individuals and groups in relation to the implications of FATCA.
Persons wishing to offer additional comments concerning the negotiations may send their views to:
Department of Finance
17th Floor, East Tower
140 O’Connor Street
Ottawa, Canada
K1A 0G5For further information contact:
Kevin Shoom
Business Income Tax Division
613-992-2980
I strongly suggest that the Isaac Brock Society make a formal submission. I am happy to volunteer my contribution to this – and I hope others will too. I note the following comment on this topic by Jim Jatras.
Canada seeks public input into #FATCA negotiations with Form Nation fin.gc.ca/treaties-conve…
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) November 8, 2012
And further to the talking points above about Canadian seniors – if anyone who is a Canadian senior, wants to cite the US Ambassador’s unkept promises re Canadian grandmothers – they can remind our Canadian government that not only haven’t the promises been kept, but Canadian federal government cooperation on FATCA further imperils the Canadian ‘grandmothers’ accts – which contradicts Minister Flaherty’s own public statements of concern.
This is an important angle for the other opposition parties to hammer on.
A barrier to get over though, is that the federal government in Canada, and the other political parties also want to locate the taxes they feel are going uncollected from Canadians possibly investing in tax havens elsewhere http://www.ndp.ca/news/ndp-targets-tax-evasion
So, they will need to make meaningful distinctions between their efforts http://www.taxfairness.ca/news/top-tax-havens-investigator-kicks-anti-tax-haven-campaign and what FATCA combined with US citizenship-based extraterritorial taxation does. That is more complex than just repeating the US propaganda line about those who ‘don’t pay their fair share’- because they have to understand the difference between the US double taxation of us as dual citizens and residents inside Canada and punitive treatment of our transparent Canadian accts vs. the attempts of Canada to locate any untaxed and hidden assets held OUTSIDE Canada, by Canadian residents. This is a distinction that the US refuses to make because of the nature of citizenship-based taxation vs. residence-based taxation. Plus, the US FATCA and FBAR and other reporting (3520/3520A, etc.) is based on our LOCAL legal post-tax CRA-registered accts, vs. accts held in true tax havens like the Caymans by people who do not live there. It is challenging to force this level of comprehension on people who haven’t got a clue about US taxation and don’t seem to understand that under FATCA, the US is treating CANADA AS A TAX HAVEN – and if Canada co-operates, Canada is agreeing to that mischaracterization! Flaherty has repeatedly and pointedly stated that Canada is not a tax haven – so we must mirror that to the Finance Department.
We’ll need to hammer that point – because no Canadian group or politician is going to be seen to agree with Canada being characterized as a tax haven – which will assist us in making them acknowledge the distinction between what the US is doing to us, and what Canada’s aims are, and make that distinction more obvious.
@bubblebustin- We may have to do just that otherwise we will face being thrown under the bus by the Canadian government and financial industry. Your average Canadian citizen has no idea what is going on or how this law will affect him/her.
I am quite willing to march in protest of this criminal policy. The time for hiding has passed.
*My personal advice is start getting the placards and bumper stickers ready. I can’t say whether they will be needed or not but their is no harm. I don’t think their is any advantage is staying silent any longer.
@recalcitrantexpat
I would too. Who would like to produce the text for a leaflet that states our issues concisely and succinctly for passers by?
Let’s see if the press picks up on the Dept of Finance notice this in the next week. Which Brockers have connections to the Canadian press? Arrow?
You’re right recalcitrant, Canada should not be ‘asking’ or bargaining, or going hat in hand at all, for any compromise, or tweaking – ex. exemption of PRPPs, etc. There should be absolutely NO cooperation with FATCA or contemplating any IGA at all. I didn’t mean to imply that the PRPP and registered savings issue could be resolved as a compromise position, only to use it as possible talking point to demonstrate how a pet project of Flaherty and the Feds, would come to naught with FATCA implemented in Canada – and how Canadian acceptance of FATCA discriminates and imperils those in Canada – and that an IGA would make Canada an active accomplice in the persecution of its own citizens and residents. And work against the publicly stated priorities of the government to boot.
Sacrificing the assets and wellbeing of 1/32 citizens/residents and their households is a huge price for Canada to even contemplate making – even if it wasn’t probably against NAFTA and our Charter of Rights, Privacy rights, etc.
Would it be time yet to consult with the Canadian lawyer with expertise in the Charter and Human rights issues that was discussed earlier this year?
Would it help with the submissions if we could refer to something specific in that regard?
Pick me up on your way, recalcitrant. You know where I live.
@badger- last year when I was writing to Financa Minister Flaherty I cited numerous texts from the Alberta privacy and human rights laws that I though would apply to this issue. I am sure that he also has a phalanx of government lawyers to advise him on this issue.
The whold question really comes down to whether or not the government of Canada has the WILL. In the submission that I mailed off on yesterday I made the point that for Canada the whole issue comes down to two things:
1. Will Canada be committed to protect the Canadian Constitution and Charter of Rights and Freedoms?
2. Will Canada commit 100% to protecting its treasury from U.S. predation by the I.R.S.?
The U.S. views all other countries as JUNIOR partners in all situations. This arrogance must be stopped and now is as good of a time as any. Refusal to sign an IGA would be the best route for Canada and all countries to take. As someone else has already said- the question about FATCA is can the U.S. get other countries to impose FATCA on themselves? FATCA cannot survive if other countries refuse to sign on. The IRS does not have the capability to run FATCA agreements with every financial institution on the world.
@Calgary411- I would be all too glad to do that
*All you may want to check and comment here:
http://taxpol.blogspot.com/2012/11/canada-negotiating-on-fatca.html
One person you may want to contact is below:
http://www.mackenziefujisawa.com/ourteam_christopherharvey.htm
Christopher Harvey was one of the attorney’s for a woman named Judy Chua who was in a big fight with the IRS and got her case in Canadian court thrown out on charter grounds. I suspect at the very least upon informing him you may have a similar legal case to Chua vs Minister of National Revenue he might be able to point you in the right direction.
One lawyer I have recommended in the past is Joseph Arvay. He is basically top dog among Canadian civil rights lawyers. Whenever they do lists of lists of the top 100 lawyers in Canada he is ALWAYS in the top 10. In general Arvay as you can see from the Wikipedia page tend to run towards controversy not away from it. Same Sex marriage, sperm donors, prostitution you name it. Blaze however, tried to contact him and he is vacation until January.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Arvay
Noticed this wording in a very small section in the Globe’s Report on Business section, from Friday Nov.9, bottom of page B5:
http://www.globeadvisor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/gam/20121109/TICKERAATL_1G
‘Tax Evasion; US nears conclusion on controversial law’
….”Ottawa has complained that the law may violate privacy laws and could
impose hardships on the estimated one million dual Canadian-U.S.
citizens living in Canada. Canadian banks say the law will be costly and
impractical. Canadian Finance Minister Jim Flaherty confirmed the two
sides are “nearing a conclusion” to the issue.”
A conclusion?
We haven’t had time for public comments, and on the very day after the notice appears on the Department of Finance website http://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/notices/unitedstates-etatsunis-eng.asp , Flaherty is quoted as saying they are “nearing a conclusion“?
*I would still make a submission. I don’t think we are “that” close.
*Flaherty also said back in December 2011 the two side were nearing a “conclusion”. My personal opinion is in all likelihood Flaherty back then perhaps actually he thought he was close to a deal with Tim Geithner but someone else in the US Government vetoed it Shulman?? Perhaps the fact that Shulman is no longer in the employ of the US government as of Friday is making a difference.
@Osgood
Let me add my appreciation too. Good email. I am heading back to NZ via Sydney on the 14th, so maybe can get a little closer to the battle then. It would be good if we could exchange some email contacts, or at least stay in touch via here. We need to stir some day time sleeping Kiwis that either are not paying attention, or have their heads in the boroughs. I think I will start going to Citizenship swearing in ceremonies in Northland, where Americans are getting their Kiwi citizenship and do some reality checks on what they know! I think some are in lala land when it comes to paying attention to these matters.
*The passage of FATCA legislation unilaterally abrogated every tax information exchange agreement the US ever signed, also probably sections of many tax treaties.
the congresscritters that brought us FATCA are prepared to strike down any reciprocity clauses of the new IGA’s.
The US plays the bully in every situation, whatever agreement is concluded, the US is sure to violate it.
John Weston and every one of our MP’s should get an ear full if they don’t allow adequate time for this information to be allowed to be publicized with enough time for more Canadians to respond, otherwise their request for input is just a token gesture. May I suggest we start writing to as many newspaper editors as we can? I keep writing to the editor of ‘Business in Vancouver’ and he actually asked for more info on FATCA but they still haven’t published anything. Maybe they will after I sent him the Dept of Finance’s notice.
*Did anyone here happen to notice this very interesting tidbit at Serbinski.com-
Re-3520 and 3520A Filings and Penalties: “We have recently been invited by the IRS to present cases in which clients have been subjected to large penalties or other sanctions when filing compliance forms for TSFA or RESP accounts. We have been advised the IRS will take our positon before Congress to see if the foreign grantor trust rules can be streamlined in the same way that RRSP filings have been simplified.”
This should be headline news. Thanks very much, Will. People who need to be aware of ths are not. Good information.
@calgary and @all, I went to look at the site mentioned, and also noticed on a thread about 3520 and 3520A woes that some people have been contacting the Taxpayer Advocate and have been successful at getting assistance there. Particularly noted were TFSAs and RESPs.
http://forums.serbinski.com/viewtopic.php?t=6735&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=tfsa&start=60
I’ve located and reported at TAS, Systemic Issues, as well — and with my son’s situation (and all other so affected) as well. We should use every avenue open to us. Thanks, badger.
As I said at the beginning of the year, and as many others have said, Canada –like all other countries– should not negotiate, Canada should tell the IRS, Treasury, and US Congress to go to hell. This is about national sovereignty, and I think that all potentially affected by FATCA even if not in Canada should write to the Canadian Department of Finance and ask them to stand their ground. A Canadian refusal would be a precedent that would show Canadian leadership on basic principles of civil rights and sovereignty and might enourage wimpy politicians elsewhere abroad (such as E. Widmer-Schlumpf) to grow a pair.
@Will, TFSAs and RESPs? Large penalties? This is what I am saying now: what the IRS doesn’t know can’t hurt you.
Renounce and be done with the clowns.
Laying low might be an option on existing accounts, especially standard checking/salary/savings and retirement.
We discussed this before, but please find below the ACA version of the revised postponed deadlines (FATCA stuff in bold italics) (retrieved today from: http://americansabroad.org/issues/taxation/tax-benefits-increased-and-fatca-implementation-delayed-in-2013/ )
This does not mean that somehow a bank could not decide of its own volition to start auditing existing accounts earlier, or that an IGA couldn’t accelerate things somehow, but perhaps this information on postponement would be useful: one could tell the bank “I am Canadian (/Swiss/German/Mongolian), none of your business where I am born, oh, and by the way, you are jumping the gun because the part of FATCA you are referring to doesn’t go into effect until later). One would also want to make arguments based on local legal principles of sovereignty, civil and privacy rights at the same time. No guarantees here, not legal advice, use the information at your own discretion.
@Will- that is interesting but ultimately I shouldn’t have to report anything about my RESP, TFSA, RDSP, to the IRS. The only reason for reporting any of these forms to a government agency is so that the government can monitor what is happening with its tax favored savings/investment programs.
These programs are not American so the IRS has absolutely no interest in them. These programs are purely run under the Canadian treasury. It is the Canadian government that makes contributions to RESP and RDSP accounts. It is the Canadian government that is forgoing collecting the taxes on the income that is generated in the TFSA. I see nothing that involves the Americans.
Repeal of citizenship based taxation is the only just answer.
Let him who stole steal no more Ephesians 4:28
@Just Me
I don’t really expect a response to my email. I am in the process of drafting some submissions to Treasury, I don’t care if they have called for them or not. There is also the Green MP who is a US citizen. I wonder if she is aware of her filing requirements!
Lets stay in touch …..