298 thoughts on “Top Priority: Canada seeks input into FATCA negotiations with US”

1. I think we may need to make some placards. No kidding.

2. Christophe – They want to know the full balance of the account so that they know the value of the individuals assets. They can then match that up with the 8938 Forms which is essentially an asset register for US citizens overseas. Finally, if you make a foot fault in the future, they know how much you have so they can maximise their penalty revenue.

3. Moby – your submission to the Australian Treasury is wonderful. I note you live in NZ. Have you considered sending something similar to Peter Dunne, the NZ Finance minister? I don’t think they have called for submissions but they are negotiating an IGA. So far, Dunne is playing the US party line that this is all about catching “tax cheats”.

4. @Osgood

   There are a couple of angles I’m working on in NZ.

5. @Mark & Calgary – where/when is Talk of the Nation?

   @Calgary – figure China can do whatever it likes since it “owns” the US. No other country that I can think of has that kind of leverage. Everybody else is so heavily invested in US securities, the only way to say “no,” would be to pull out, take the losses. Who is going to do that?

6. @Moby

   I am considering sending my own submission to Peter Dunne. If you have any thoughts or ideas on better ways to try to get the message to the NZ government, please let us know. 

7. @Osgood

   I think your angles depend on your relationship with NZ. Are you a NZ citizen?  Australian citizen? Living in NZ or USA? I’m not sure how much impact a submission from a non-NZer will have.

   My thoughts are: Whoever you local MP is, Peter Dunne (Revenue), Murray McCully (Foreign Affairs), Julie Genter (Green MP, born in US).

8. Great work, Moby. It will be an inspiration for a letter I am writting to my ambassador and finance minister. Even if they haven’t asked us for inputs, I am going to send something to them.

9. @ nobledreamer and All,

   Talk of the Nation, October 31, 2012– Mark Twain’s call-in:
   http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=3&islist=true&id=5&d=10-31-2012,

   @ about 40:57

   Thanks again, Mark Twain!

10. HOW TO CONTACT THE SHOW: Call us at (800) 989-8255

    you can contact them by email or by their contact page on the NPR website

    Here is talk of the nation website.  It appears they post a tape of the show after 6 hours have past.  It looks like they name the content of the show one workday in advance. No mention yet of which day they actually will make it happen, assuming the promise to be kept.
    http://www.npr.org/programs/talk-of-the-nation/

    To listen live 2pm -4pm Eastern time, surf around for a public radio station that has a live stream.  Colorado Public radio seems to have it.
    http://www.cpr.org/

    it seems they give a preview on facebook a couple hours in advance
    https://www.facebook.com/nprtalk

11. @mark twain

    One of my favourite quotes: “Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it”. 

    It’s always a blessing when we get heard, and rewarding when the information we bring becomes the thin edge of the wedge, such as your call was in bringing coverage of FATCA on NPR. Fantastic.

12. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/11/09/lt_col_ralph_peters_on_petraeus_timing_is_just_too_perfect.html

    something stinks with the Chicago mafia

    perfect timing for the majority ruler

13. We all have seen that our relationship with our Congressmen means near nothing.  THe only thing that could possibly make an effect is USA media.  It must be seeded somewhere and it then needs to have that ripple-effect—where one media outlet refers to what the other refers to.  People like Rush Limbaugh or Jon Stewart (would never happen) or shows like 60 minutes are capable of spreading messages.

14. @Moby

    Yes, I am a NZ Citizen. Thanks for the names. The only issue I have is that I wish to remain anonymous so my submissions will have to be anonymous which may reduce their validity.

15. @Osgood

    Good to see another Kiwi in the fight. Are you living in NZ or elsewhere?

    I understand the need for anonymity. I’d suggest writing anonymous letters anyway, but creating a new email address (e.g. gmail)  that allows anonymous contact from your audience if needed. I’m happy to coordinate with you on letter writing if it helps.

    I’ll mention in my letters that proper debate and consultation is being stifled due to the fears of affected people in being identified. That should hopefully set the context for the NZ pols that receive anonymous letters, and therefore give those letters more weight.

16. @Moby,

    Good idea and one we should all emphasize. Thanks, Moby and Osgood for efforts on your side of the world and for sharing!

17. *@Osgood

    Another thing. One good angle to for with McCully is called out in this article:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/7905153/Queensland-bill-discriminates-against-Kiwis

    If the NZ govt wants to have any moral authority on lecturing the Aussies on institutionalising discrimination against Kiwis, then they’d better keep their own noses clean in their own country when it comes to adopting a discriminatory piece of filth like the FATCA IGA.

18. @Moby

    I have been living in NZ for almost 20 years. I will draft some letters to be sent by anonymous email to the people you have suggested. Something should also probably go to the email address below (from the Press Release): 

    A joint working group comprising private sector representatives and officials is being formed to work through FATCA issues. Organisations that may be affected by FATCA can participate in the working group, by emailing Policy.Webmaster@ird.govt.nz

19. @Moby

    One other thing – do you plan to submit a version of your Australian submission to the NZ gov? This is great and extremely detailed, far more eloquent than I would be able to produced (notwithstanding time demands from job and family!!).  

20. @Osgood

    Yes, I’m basing my NZ letters on the Aus Treasury letter as the arguments are equivalent. The content needs a fair bit of tailoring to fit the different audience, so it will take a week or two to get right.

    I’ve already emailed the address you’ve mentioned. It was a relatively short email highlighting the need for them include representation of individuals affected by FATCA in the working group, not just organisations (read: banks) that they seem to be focused on. I’ve not heard back from them even though I requested a response from them. If you also write an email to them indicating something similar then that would be good. I doubt they’ll be considering content/arguments via that email address as it is primarily focused on assembling a working group that will subsequently consider the issues at hand.

21. @ Moby

    Done – here is the email I have sent them:

    I refer to the recent announcement that the New Zealand Government is to negotiate an Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) with the United States regarding the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA).  I note that a joint working group is being formed to work through FATCA issues. I would like to request that the government calls for submissions from the public on this important matter. It is not only banks and financial institutions that are affected by this legislation. It is estimated that there are at least 20,000 persons in New Zealand that have US links and will be affected by this proposal. The majority are New Zealand citizens, some of whom were born in the US or were former permanent residents. Some are “accidental” Americans who were born in New Zealand, or elsewhere, with a US parent.
    For example, I am a New Zealand citizen, who is also a naturalized US citizen when I lived there for a few years over 20 years ago. My two daughters, aged 8 and 10, are both New Zealand citizens but have now inherited US Citizenship without ever having set foot in the country. Our voices need to be heard concerning this discriminatory policy and it’s potential effect on New Zealanders with US ties. 
    Please respond to this email to confirm receipt.

22. @Osgood

    Great work, thanks!

    Between you, me and Just Me, we have three Kiwis in the fight. That’s motivating to me. And I think it is much more effective to have multiple people knocking on the govts door giving them the same message (rather than me by myself).

23. Anti-FATCA talking point for submission to the Department of Finance http://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/notices/unitedstates-etatsunis-eng.asp :

    An important item to cite re FATCA (and US extraterritorial taxation of those in Canada) is that it will prevent and punish >1million Canadian citizens and residents with US taxable status from being able to participate in/benefit from this: a key priority of the current Canadian federal government and Department of Finance (and Minister Flaherty) is the implementation of PRPPs – Private Registered Pension Plans – which the banks, insurance companies and other investment also are drooling over – because of the oodles of extra money, fees and business they will gain from PRPP implementation http://business.financialpost.com/2011/11/17/whats-not-to-love-about-prpps-canadian-banks/ http://www.benefitscanada.com/news/banks-resisting-omers-push-to-manage-prpps-23121 http://www.benefitscanada.com/pensions/governance-law/bankers%E2%80%99-group-pushes-for-prpps-30927 .

    But, a key barrier is that PRPPs will be considered ‘foreign trusts‘ – and they would be toxic for a US taxable person to hold. They are not exempted in the Canada US treaty and are unlikely to be, just like RESPs, TFSAs, RDSPs, etc.

    See http://www.fin.gc.ca/act/prpp-prac/index-eng.asp for evidence of how important this is to Harper, Flaherty and the federal government.

    Emphasize that FATCA is at crosspurposes to this initiative, and all the other registered savings (ex. TFSAs) that the Canadian government is heavily touting to those inside Canada – see also;

    http://www.fin.gc.ca/n11/11-148-eng.asp

    In fact, not only can we not use these registered savings, but using them puts us at serious risk re the required reporting – 3520s, FBARs, FATCA reporting for individuals, – and subject to layers of immense fines and penalties – based not on actual US tax owed (often zero) but based on the balance of our legal CRA-registered post-tax savings. Also very very expensive to get accounting help with the US forms to report properly. So, the Ministry of Finance will be in effect: assisting the US to identify the Canadian savings accounts that the IRS will then levy draconian fines on – because Canada has not been able/interested in obtaining a tax deferred or tax exempt status for these accounts as they EVENTUALLY did for RRSPs – many years after the fact – and still which require an annual election for.

    We haven’t got a hope in hell of getting these other registered accounts treated as RRSPs are by the US – they’ll continue to punish them as ‘foreign trusts’.

    Flaherty, and our own government have not warned the 1/32 duals/permanent residents in Canada with US taxable shackles of the serious dangers of investing our life savings in registered accounts – knowing full well how the US views them as taxable foreign trusts. We’ve already written to Flaherty re mutual funds, PFICs, ‘foreign trusts’ issues, and problems with our registered savings. He knows all about it, and has done nothing to alert those in Canada.

    This is an issue that the Canadian opposition to a FATCA agreement should hammer on. And, it’s an important point to make to provincial members of parliament as well, because Ontario had been opposing PRPPs, http://www.benefitscanada.com/pensions/governance-law/ontario-strikes-blow-to-prpps-26906 being in favour of a CPP linked plan instead – because of the high probability that the CBA and insurance companies will eat away at the savings through high administrative fees http://business.financialpost.com/2012/10/22/prpps-gain-no-traction-as-provinces-drag-feet/

    See Flaherty’s desire to make employer participation in PRPPs mandatory: ” But Mr. Flaherty argued that by forcing employers to offer the new PRPP –
    without forcing them to contribute – and by forcing employers to
    automatically enroll workers into the system with an opt-out provision,
    millions more Canadians will start putting away extra cash for
    retirement.” http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/new-pension-plan-would-require-employers-to-offer-it-but-allow-opt-out/article564426/?service=mobile

    The problem is that if one of us with the US taxable status is forcibly enrolled – even if we then can opt out of the PRPP, we have already then triggered the ‘foreign trust’ reporting – even if there is nothing to report  – because it existed – even without a balance.

    An ally against implementation of FATCA assistance by Canada: CARP Canadian Association of Retired Persons http://www.carp.ca/ – is also another Canadian lobby group for us to contact re the anti-FATCA effort, since they have a firm position re PRPPs, and also represent the best interests of seniors and retired persons in Canada – and have written about the problem with US taxation of those in Canada www.carp.ca/wp-content/…/US–Tax-crackdown-misses-target1.pdf  http://www.carp.ca/2012/06/15/minister-flaherty-canada-continues-to-press-for-fair-tax-deal-with-united-states/

    Canadian seniors are active voters with a high turnout rate in Canada, and are also very likely a significant group to suffer high losses from US crossborder taxation – because they are more likely to have amassed savings, and because if they sell their principal residence – non-taxable in Canada, they’ll fall afoul of US taxation of it, and potentially have not only a higher bank balance from the proceeds, but also potentially US income tax/capital gains tax assessed on the sale. This would be a problem for the Canadian Conservative party because they count on seniors for votes “At election time senior citizens are worth more than the rest of us. They vote.”  http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/three-parties-one-strategy-capture-the-senior-vote/article1954372/?service=mobile

    See: “89.4% — The proportion of people in Canada aged 55 and over who reported that they had voted in the last federal election.” http://www42.statcan.gc.ca/smr08/2011/smr08_152_2011-eng.htm

    For those IBS readers in other countries – there are no doubt parallels in your country to these arguments, re senior savings and accounts imperiled by US tax and FATCA, stats re higher senior rates of voting, sale of principal residence proceeds imperiled, etc.

24. @badger- Canada should not have to go hat in hand begging the U.S. to allow U.S. persons to engage in any financial activity that the Canadian legislature has enacted. This is a prime example of why Canada must oppose FATCA and the Savings Clause.

    There should be no discussion on this issue whatsoever. There is nothing to bargain over with the U.S. The Canadians must take a hardline stance against any U.S. legislation that abridges the sovereign power of Canada to make laws for any of its lawful residents.

25. @recalcitrantexpat

    If Canada acquiesces to the US I don’t know if I can cope with the disappointment and abandonment by both countries 🙁 

    We cannot allow this to happen. Where is the damn Canadian press on this? Do we need to get the placards out?