For a long time I have listened to the message from the State Department that if you relinquish/renounce your US citizenship you are giving up a large number of precious “rights”. I would be interested in some perceptions of what exactly those “rights” are.
Yesterday I looked at the current passport application which asks for information they say will be shared with the IRS. The US is moving in the direction where the issuance of a passport may be conditional on tax compliance. As you know under US law, US citizens are required to both enter and leave the US on a US passport. What this tells me is that US citizens do NOT in fact have the right to either leave or enter the US. In fact, there is no constitutional right to leave the country regardless.
Again, my question is: what is your understanding of the precious rights that US citizenship implies?
*The benefit of being a US person living abroad is that one gets to stand in the shorter line at customs if one visits the US. If one is not a US citizen, then one has to stand it the longer line.
Another possible benefit, depending upon one’s situation, is that one will pay “out-of-state” tuition, rather than international tuition, when taking an online class.
That’s all that I can think of.
Good question. I suppose consular access and military protection is another theoretical benefit for those who find themselves in a country in turmoil. Not sure how useful this is for most non-resident Americans however.
Inside the US, US citizens have the following rights that most foreigners don’t: reside, study and work in the US without restrictions; vote and be a candidate for public office; work in government jobs; petition for a foreign relative to immigrate to the US; not be deported for any crime; certain tax exemptions and government benefits. The often cited constitutional rights of freedom of religion, speech, fair trial, bear arms, privacy, equal protection, etc. are given to everyone inside the US.
Outside the US, US citizens have the following rights that most foreigners don’t: travel on a US passport; vote in US federal elections; petition for a foreign relative to immigrate to the US; certain US tax exemptions; transmit US citizenship to children; refuge in US embassy or consulate in case of persecution; assistance from the US in case of arrest or emergency. Basic rights such as those in the US constitution exist if the country where the person is located guarantees them, but that has nothing to do with being a US citizen.
Details: Consular protection from persecution and assistance in arrest in another country are not available if the person is also a citizen of that country.
Victoria also wrote about this in her blog.
http://thefranco-americanflophouse.blogspot.com/2011/08/foreigners-rights-when-traveling-abroad.html
*In brief, the right to the life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If arrested abroad you have the right to contact a US consular representative, but that does not signify that you have any right to violate foreign law, or as Shadow Raider has stated, to ask for any consular assistance whatsover if you are a dual citizen of the country where you have been arrested.
Foriegn citizens arrested in the US have a reciprocal right to contact a representative of the consulate of their country of citizenship.
*Shadow Raider & Roger, I believe that these are basic citizenship rights offered by any western country, with each country maybe offering a bit more or less. The OP was probably looking for extraordinary things which justify FBAR, FATCA and the tax filing burden. The thing which finally triggered me to hand in my passport in Bern, were Americans in Switzerland who stated that they were required to provide proof that a CPA did their tax returns. I can see myself possibly paying a CPA to do my Swiss taxes once every 20 years, but being forced by banks to pay 600-2000 per year for the next 50 years for US tax return processing scared me out of my shoes (that’s a lot of money for me)! All of these basic standard citizenship rights just ain’t worth it in double, since I already pay for such with Swiss taxes. I’m more than happy to pay US services if I live in the US, but I live here now because I couldn’t find work there, and thus I only need Swiss services.
For those who are citizen and live in their non-US country of nationality, the rule of state non-responsibility applies and you will not receive protection from the United States, nor can the US intervene if you are detained.
If you travel to another country on a second passport, the US doesn’t have to protect or help you either.
*Petros, that’s interesting, since every Swiss-American citizen I’ve spoken with travels using their Swiss passport since it is safer, cheaper and less restrictive. I can now travel to Cuba, North Korea or even Iran without being accused of being a spy!
Does a US citizen abroad have the right to receive assistance from the Taxpayer Advocate?
What if they relinquish, or renounce – but remain liable for assessment of US tax and penalties until the Statute of Limitations (such as they are) run out years and years later – but the person is no longer a citizen?
And, what about green card holders, or other ‘taxable’ persons (ex. snowbirds with too many days in the US, or property there?)? Does the Taxpayer Advocate serve them as well?
@ swisspinoy, re tuition rates (distance ed) and US citizenship. I inquired as to the tuition rate for an entirely online distance ed degree from a US state university, and having US citizenship did not get me a better rate than my non-US citizen colleagues. The rates cited were for state residents vs. non-residents, not citzens vs. non-citizens. There was no international rate distinction in that instance – though as a university proximate to populous border communities, they would have had non-US, international students applying.
@ badger – Yes, the Taxpayer Advocate will help US citizens abroad. The TAS is very willing to do so, especially if it concerns the OVD programs and issues related to offshore reporting for Americans residing abroad. They are also more flexible than the regular IRS as they will communicate with you by email if you desire. However, you must meet the acceptance criteria which has nothing to do with place of residence.
I am not sure about the answers to your other questions.
*@Lisa, I share Badger’s concerns about whether former US citizens who still have open statutes of limitation for filed tax returns and fbar could still request help from TAS if audited or assessed nasty fines and penalties. Don’t honestly know if they are in a nasty anomalous situation in which they’re still subject to the IRS but as ex-citizens no longer enjoy any constitutional rights and protections.
Be good slave, and master will let you travel off of the plantation.
US citizenship was golden circa 1940s-1960s. Back then you would literally be considered a lunatic if you were to give it up.
Today, the US passport is a massive liability, I see absolutely zero benefit unless you don’t have another first world passport. I will follow swisspinoy’s steps once my little red book with a white cross arrives in the mail, and will duly report to the US Embassy in Bern to hand in my little blue book with a golden eagle.
I mean seriously, do you think things are going to get any better going forward with the dismal fiscal future the US faces?
Thank you @Lisa.
@all, If anyone knows the answers as to whether the TAS would help if you’ve renounced/relinquished, have a green card, etc. that would be useful information to have posted here.
I remember being presented a list of about 10 points during my renunciation ceremony and struggling to contain my smile when I read the one about losing the “right” to pass on US citizenship to any children in the future 🙂
The only thing that I ever wanted from the US was the right to be left alone, so good riddance!
You guys, there has been a lot of “mean reversion” in the past 30 years. Even with a 3rd world Brazilian passport, I can go to all of Europe no problem. Iran, hehe, after Lula chatted with Alejammewhathisname, I’m sure that Iran gives us the Green flag. The hardest place for us to visit, it seems, is the USA-SSR.
I don’t know how many of you guys operate in a 2nd or 3rd language every day, but I recorded a video with me (as a joke) asking some people some questions last week in Portuguese. I played the video today. My response “#$f$#u$%c$x%* accent!!!!!” I can understand these people all day long and talk to these people all day long, but accent makes a huge difference.
*geeez, yes, the accent is embarrassing and I might never lose it, but that’s life. 🙁 But, at least sometimes folks ask if I grew up in Austria (they were probably just being nice)!
According to this article, posted yesterday, the USA is the only country in the world where our tourist dollars will never be welcomed:
True or not, I think that Zimbabwe is the only country where I’m not welcomed (due to my skin color), regardless of citizenship status.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/11/04/border-entry-exit-pact.html
‘Dodgy data might hinder border entry-exit pact; System would track adherence to visa, residency rules’
The Canadian Press Posted:
Nov 4, 2012 5:58 AM
…..”The two countries plan to use the data to detect people overstaying
their visas and to determine whether those subject to removal or
departure orders have actually left.
It will also help gauge whether someone has met residency
requirements for citizenship by measuring how long they have been
present in the country….”………”PI includes the traveller’s name, date of birth, citizenship or
nationality, and passport or other travel document information. PNR
information features additional details such as the passenger’s address,
itinerary and ticketing data.”….
“The current pilot project involves border crossing records of third-country nationals — not U.S. or Canadian citizens.”………”By June 30, 2014, the entry-exit program will be expanded to include U.S. and Canadian citizens”…………..
And, will the US use the data to bolster attempts to double tax dual Canadians, snowbirds, greencard holders, and anyone else it deems ‘taxable’ – to try and establish things like ‘substantial presence’, etc. ?
Will the US more closely integrate this collection of information on the movement of US citizens, and passports with draconian taxation of those abroad? And how would we protect ourselves from problems and errors with the data? Or privacy breaches? http://www.heraldonline.com/2012/10/28/4370044/sc-consumer-advocate-wants-to.html http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20121103/PC16/121109713
My intent in posting the article above was to underscore the erosion/illusion of any rights Canadians and US citizens might think they have in terms of privacy, or data protection, etc. Both governments are proceeding to collect and store more and more information – and what guarantee do we have that the information is safeguarded – or used only as agreed?
There have already been problems with the no-fly list – and errors due to similarities in names, and cases of mistaken identity – preventing individuals from travelling – but in the absence of any illegal act, or proof http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/national/jetblue-makes-no-fly-list-mistake-removes-toddler http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/us/07watch.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 ..”Even as the universe of those identified as a risk expands, the
decision-making involved remains so secretive that people cannot be told
whether they are on the watch list, why they may be on it or even
whether they have been removed. The secrecy, government officials say,
keeps terrorists off balance. But civil liberties advocates say it can
hide mistakes and keep people wrongly singled out from seeking redress.”… (from ‘Ensnared by Error on Growing U.S. Watch List’ By MIKE McINTIRE Published: April 6, 2010).
And, ….”According to the ACLU’s legal complaint, thousands of people have been
added to the “No Fly List” and barred from commercial air travel without
any opportunity to learn about or refute the basis for their inclusion
on the list. The result is a vast and growing list of individuals who,
on the basis of error or innuendo, have been deemed too dangerous to fly
but who are too harmless to arrest.”…. http://www.aclu.org/national-security/federal-appeals-court-allows-no-fly-list-challenge-proceed – from ‘July 26, 2012 ‘ACLU Represents 15 People Government Put on Secret List and Banned From Flying Without Explanation’
So really, what rights do US citizens abroad – or resident have?
“The result is a vast and growing list of individuals who, on the basis of error or innuendo, have been deemed too dangerous to fly but who are too harmless to arrest.”
Who cares about flying as long as you get “free” healthcare.
Be good or walk, slave.
@badger, interesting post. If on such a no-fly list, a Canadian (comme moi) could be banned from flying over the US to the Caribbean (my new favorite place to vacation instead of Hawaii-Florida-Texas).
I am still pondering the question about the benefits of US citizenship as I sit in south Florida, but on the topic of US passport applications with IRS links, I would like to hear some opinions on which other means the USG should use to end the negligence they’ve shown in making USP’s aware of tax filing obligations.
Also, when or if my husband and I get a response from the IRS to our OVDI submission (rumour is they will let the time to respond expire) and we recountact our TAS agent, I’ll be sure to ask her about whether they help ex-USP’s.
@Petros, the article about the increased emphasis on data collection – and cooperation/integration by Canada with the US, reminded me of the problems with the duplicates, errors and omissions on the ‘name and shame’ list of US renunciants. If they are hellbent on collecting and integrating passport information, tax information, renunciation information, and travel information, etc. but demonstrate errors on all of those; then the opportunities for problems based on mistaken identities and repercussions are rampant.
@Bubblebustin, re; your offer to ask the TAS agent about whether they help ex-USPs, (and other classes of taxable persons – like green card holders, snowbirds, etc.) would probably be very helpful to those reading here – as problems might arise years after the fact – by which time some people may have filed all their past returns and renounced/relinquished.
Thanks, bubblebustin.
There certainly has been negligence on the US education of responsibility (and application of laws) to US Persons Abroad. What does it mean that they have turned a blind eye all these decades and now are putting their law (the law is the law?) in play. And, the negligence continues, especially for the US’ new immigrants that are enticed to apply to live in the US. Shameful.
Interesting, your statement of rumour that they would let response to an OVDI submission expire — and then you have to recontact them and then what? Again, shameful.
Your asking about how the TAS will be able to help ex-USPs is appreciated and will be valuable information for all of us.
(Hope you are enjoying a warm-weather get-away, another right that might be taken away from us at some future point, including the possibility of our names showing up on “No Fly Lists” — less rights than any other citizen of our country, in our case Canada.)
@calgary
The weather has been very pleasant, thank you. Yesterday we drove up to Mrlbourne, the last place I lived in the US before moving to Winnipeg at 12. I had arranged to meet up with a few friends from childhood. One said she is seriously considering fleeing the US depending on the results of the election. Of course I had to tell her how the USG punishes its citizens for doing so. I’ve had the opportunity to discuss the situation with a few friends and strangers (one trapped next to me on our flight) and all expressed how ridiculous it is that a law that is aimed at domestic tax evaders would ensnare so many innocent, what we call benign actors.