@CanuckDoc found this story and suggests that it should be given a separate post, as it is a mainstream story about Banks shutting out Americans Abroad.
The story was originally posted at USA Today and then picked up at ABC News. It will be interesting to watch today to see if it starts showing up elsewhere. It it ever gets discussed on Brian Williams NBC nightly news, so my 86 year old mother sees it, you will know the story finally came back to the homeland! I don’t expect to hear or see it there, however.
@WhoaIt’sSteve: “For one thing sending an e-mail requires no effort, to be taken seriously you need to put it in an envelope, stamp it, and mail it in, that shows at least a modicum of effort, I learned this from some friends who now work with OFA, and who were aides for one of Ohio’s representatives. Next you need to schedule meetings and get face to face.”
That’s exaclty what I and a few others have been doing. I first wrote letters and sent them by mail to congressmen. No answer. Then I sent emails, and some answered. (It seems to me that they prefer emails, contrary to what you wrote.) Marylouise Serrato, the head of American Citizens Abroad, lived in Switzerland for years and just moved to Washington, DC last week. She is planning to organize meetings with congressmen, just as you suggested, and I intend to help her as I live near DC too.
@whoaitssteve
How do you empathize with my husband who was born a US citizen in Canada and never lived or worked a day in the US? Should he move the US to make a better statement? It’s not you and us Steve, citizenship based taxation hurt ALL USP’s and there’s no place for it in a country that claims to support freedom.
@WhoaitsSteve
Thanks for the suggestion. Signing off now. Have a good weekend.
@WhoaIt’sSteve,
Really, bite the bullet and return to the US and become lobbyists? I would be very adverse to that. The US, from my view in visits in the past decade, seems a very foreign place. I can’t tell you how good it feels to be back to my city in Canada, seeing the multi-culturism, people of all cultures interacting on a daily basis. Sure, we have big city problems, but I feel a difference. I don’t meet anyone here in US flag hats (or Canadian flag hats) that strike a conversation with me, not to find out anything about where I live but the question “Do you have Sharia Law there?” — no, didn’t want to know the location, directly north of Montana, the weather — the things we call Chinooks, where I was originally from, where my US family lived. I was sure to tell him that the city I live in has a cool mayor of Muslim descent. I’ve gone to US flea markets and auction sales (a particular hobby of mine) and see guns sold on tables, as easily as guitars, artwork, antiques, etc. I hear talk of revolutions and complaints of cost of health insurance and how some people just don’t “deserve” health care. I know this is not everywhere and everyone, but I’ve seen it enough that I’ve been happy to cross that border back into Canada where I feel comfortable — except for the pursuit of my family by FATCA, FBAR, etc.
Why, if we are US citizens living abroad, we don’t have a political voice in the US, is a very valid question. Why would we have to move back to the US to be lobbyists? I’m sorry you feel we are complaining — it is trying to get across the story of what is happening to us. Living the easy life? We are living the life of any ordinary persons within the US — we come in all shapes, sizes, coulours, heritages, family income (rich, middle class or poor) — it should make NO difference for what is being done to us by FATCA, FBAR, IRS overreach. We live, work, pay taxes, raise families, volunteer our time for our communities, laugh, cry — and grieve at what is happening. I have worked and saved *and paid all of my taxes* responsibly in Canada, not to have my Canadian savings spent for administraton of compliance of my and my son’s US tax and reporting returns — for little or no dollars owed to the US.
Speaking of “if you hate being an American so much, you have the option to end it, no one is forcing you to stay American are they?”: I am confident my soon-to-be renunciation will give me a modicum of my life back, but I will still have to deal with the US abuse of my Canadian-born son who has a developmental disability as the US Consulate says I (or any other Parent, Guardian or Trustee of such a family member) do not have the right to renounce on such a person’s behalf. Not only will I never move back to the US, my choice will be to never again cross the border unless one of my siblings has a medical emergency or death. (Sounds weird, but I’m glad that my parents have not seen this day — they have already passed away.) My son would not understand why he couldn’t accompany me to visit his relatives in the US. So, yes, the US is forcing my son to stay!!!!!!!! In a democracy, should that be a choice that can be made by a Parent, Guardian, Trustee of a developmentally delayed or otherwise mentally compromised person?
PS — I’m sure our letters with stamps on them gather dust and have less of a chance of response than our emails.
Yes, Steve, some of your ideas and US exceptionalism are frustrating — but we like you as a person and you make us think with sharing your points of view and our responses to you — or, complaining. Really, most of us want to see the US do well economically, etc. We have family and friends there and know, the US is made up of generally good people, people we care about — just like the people of all the countries of the world! From afar, it looks like many questionable US choices, one of which is FATCA.
This is my last possible visit to USA.
Soon, I will have a tax lien placed upon my IRS account, because there were no instructions to file TDF 12.34 form for the secretary of Treasury. The crime’s penalty was announced to be retroactive from the date the law was passed.
This lien will be sent to the country of my residence, who may or may not collect it in the interest of the IRS.
If I will step into USA, I will be detained until I pay that lien.
The lien will be for more than what I own or have ever had in any “öffshore” bank account.
All because of the hype created in Washington, and gladly spreading itself on its own merits. The best type of propoganda that can be created is propoganda that spreads itself.
@Mark Twain.
One word – shameful!
@swisspinoy
Not stupid. You just believed you were free.
Whoa It’s Steve,
re:”you make a conscious decision to remain an American and live outside its borders even knowing that comes with strings attached. “
Well actually, since I was 3 at the time I left the US (not under my own power), I wouldn’t call it a conscious decision. And I grew up outside the US. My immediate family was here, and I stayed in what I considered to be my permanent home – which was the only country I really knew. Later, when I became an adult, and married a Canadian, the only reason to enter the US was to visit family, attend weddings and funerals and see ailing US relatives. I grew up outside the US, and didn’t know anything about the US tax and FBARs, but if I had, I’d have renounced then – if I could have. Except that the current situation has gone far beyond what existed when I was 3. I still wouldn’t have owed the US a cent, and I don’t owe any US tax now either. But, even if I had known, the US wasn’t actively acting like my bank account was a toxic pirate hoard when I was younger.
You should know by reading here that renouncing isn’t simple or straightforward, and hasn’t been for more than a decade at least. It keeps changing – more restrictive and punitive, and also now costs 450. plus guarantees intimate dealings with the IRS, who has been calling us all cheats and evaders – before the fact (guilty before being proven innocent). Doesn’t inspire me to think that I will be treated with any fairness.
And ask yourself this – why should we have to renounce in order to get some justice and fairness from the government who claims us? For example, there is no difference between my Canadian chequing account and yours probably – other than location – but mine is ‘local’ to me as yours is to you. So why is mine subject to a Bank Secrecy Act and huge penalties meant for criminals, terrorists and money launderers, and yours isn’t – merely because mine exists outside the US? It’s legal and registered with my tax number where I live, and I’ve already paid full tax on the contents – before it was even deposited there by my Canadian employer. And, why can’t I be a volunteer treasurer for my child’s sports team without reporting that Canadian community junior baseball team’s account’s highest balance annually to the IRS? Why don’t you have to report your equivalent voluntary activities to the IRS, and I do? Why do I have to report on all the private accounts of anyone (even non-US persons) who name me as having a power of attorney in case of emergency, BEFORE it ever even is legally in force – which could be never. The IRS says they need to know that Canadian’s accounts and balances annually, even though by law here, the POA does not have any power until some future contingent event takes place. So I’d be reporting annually all the details – and penalized thousands based on the value of accounts that didn’t belong to me, that I had no bene but would have no current legal access to the accounts. And would not be able to legally access them, or know the balances or account information in the country where it actually is in force. And would break privacy laws in the country where the actual account holder and myself live. Does that seem reasonable?
I don’t consider that whining. It is costing thousands to file consistent with what the US is demanding from me. That is money taken out of my Canadian child’s education savings, for nothing – totally unproductive for us, and even for the US. And I have never come close to owing the US anything – my income is quite modest. I’ve already paid my taxes in full, where I live and work and receive services – in Canada.
Do duals born abroad, and inherit US status from a parent, or are born by accident in a US border hospital “consciously choose” US citizenship and its burdens? Should they have to pay for years of US returns from abroad because of an involuntary accident? Is it ethical to force them to pay to renounce something they had no choice in? I might agree if they chose to live in the US, and the condition was that they file, or else renounce by a certain age, but that is not an option being offered to us. Is it ‘whining’ to point out that gross injustice?
@WhoIt’sSteve, just a friendly reminder that minors, those with cognitive disabilities deemed incompetent, and those who can’t satisfy the IRS (regardless of absence of US tax actually owed), cannot renounce. We all have to pass through the eye of a needle to renounce, but some, by US laws, will never ever be allowed to do that. And that is a human rights violation, and discrimination in the case of those with cognitive disabilities, and minors -who the US prevents from being able to join their family in renouncing, or sharing only one non-US citizenship in common.
If my sister had lived longer, she would never have been allowed by the US to renounce. We would be allowed to be only Canadians, and she would be forced to stay a US citizen. Her Disability savings would have had to be reported to the IRS for her lifetime, or otherwise subjected to FBAR penalties – though she would not be ‘competent’ enough to file on her own behalf, or to understand what was required. The IRS considers our Canadian Registered Disability Savings plans to be an evil ‘foreign trust’, and penalizes it accordingly.
If we protest that on behalf of those with disabilities, and those deemed incompetent, is that ‘whining’?
The US, and all Americans should be ashamed of a federal agency who treats those with cognitive and mental health disabilities so unjustly, and penalizes their families as well.
And how does that discrimiantion bring any benefit to the US? How would the US and the IRS lose by treating my sister, or our children and elders with disabilite justly?
On the pariah theme, I have to repost this contribution from Blaze back in February. I remember both my husband I having a good chuckle while I read it to him, before I ever started participating here. Thank you to Calgary411 for finding it:
Blaze
Submitted on 2012/02/22 at 8:32 pm
@JustMe: I love your use of VD.
VD is just like the other VD. It’s Risky, Bad For Your Health and Highly Contagious. For some VDs, there Is no cure. TAS may provide some symptom relief, but VD is insidious and will recur. The standard IRS prescription, (written in illegible handwriting–but finally interpreted) is “Give Us Your Money!”
Anyone with VD is treated like they are dirty. They are told to “Come Clean.” They are told by the stalking spouse they divorced long ago “It’s Your Fault.” They are accused of “Cheating” when it’s Congress and it’s IRS illicit lover who are the Real Cheats–in bed together behind your back, refusing to communicate with you and spreading VD without no discretion or scruples.
Claiming “I Didn’t Cheat” or “It Didn’t Mean Anything” won’t help you. After you get VD, you will not be able to plead “Not Guilty. Anyone who enters VD will be tortured until they pay up. Anyone considering VD should be notified they will be reported to the proper authorities for further persecution.
Explaining “But the US Consulate told me I was renouncing my US citizenship” won’t work in VD. The Consulate has the constitutional right to lie. You were dumb to believe them. You are the sinner because you trusted and believed the Consulate’s deceit all these years. Don’t get trapped again. Don’t get infected with US VD! .
Protect Yourself. Know The Risks. Take Precautions. Stay As Far Away From VD and the US as You Possibly Can. Keep Your Money In The Country Where You Live. Always Use A Safe (for your money, of course!).
Be Responsible. Warn Potential Partners. Avoid Passing VD Onto Your Children Born Outside US.
Today, the question isn’t “Do You Have an STD?” It’s “Where Were You Born? If the answer is anywhere in US, knowledgeable potential partners will turn and run for fear of catching your VD There is no possibility of marriage. Possible mates fear having their lives and finances ruined by your VD. No one wants to come near you. You are destined for a life alone.
The only one who wants to screw anyone with VD is IRS. When IRS finishes with you, they toss you aside. IRS rapidly moves on to their next conquest. They gleefully spread VD that originated with them onto others. Instead of preventing greater spread of VD, elected officials in Congress get their kicks as a voyeur cheering IRS on.
Can I say all of that here?!? What would Isaac Brock think?!?
*Not to try to make this personal but all of the people involved developing FATCA at IRS and Treasury happen to come from a particular background. Grew up in mostly well off families all went to the best colleges and law schools(all US of course) and found their way to Washington DC where they drift back and forth between white shoe law firms such as Ropes and Grey, WilmerHale et al and the IRS General Counsel’s Office/US Treasury Tax Policy Office. One thing I haven’t found is any that ever lived outside of the United States(although the deceased mother in law of the head woman in charge of FATCA went to McGill back in the 1950s). In fact I suspect none of them ever will simply put a country move to a country like Canada as Canada will never pay tax lawyers either Canadian or US Trained nearly same amount of money to interpret a 3000 page tax code as the US will pay to interpret 75,000+ page tax code. I do think there have to be real questions asked as to whether those in the US tax law/legal community especially those who drift back and forth between the IRS GC’s office and private practice despite their academic predigree have any “real” comprehension of the world outside of the United States.
Thanks once again, Badger. I asked him the same question.
@calgary411, I would really like to be able to picket the US consulates with big signs directed at this issue. It is bad enough what is happening to all of us, but to penalize those who can’t fight back is just beyond the pale. I want to get to a state in which I can stand up in public and shout about this – and embarass the US and IRS on behalf of your child, and all the other families out there just trying to take the best care they can of those who can’t take care of themselves. Does the US want us to point out loudly in public that a US federal agency threatens the only savings that these individuals have to provide for their future? Can Geithner and Shulman say with a straight face that those who cannot defend themselves are also responsible for the US tax gap, and are hiding and evading US taxes – through possession of a registered disability savings plan? And can the State Department really justify to the world that they prevent certain individuals – with cognitive or mental health disabilities from exercising a human right – and the US keeps them effectively as captives for their lifetimes – while preventing their guardians from protecting their only assets? I think that it would be so delicious to be free to picket Ambassador Jacobson on behalf of Canadian ‘grannies’ and those with disabilities whose savings his employer and nation lay claim to. I think that would make the international news for sure if we were able to do it. Would some of the media that write on disability matters do articles on this? I’m thinking of Catherine Porter of the Toronto Star http://www.thestar.com/columnist/210820–porter-catherine
Thanks, Badger, for pointing me in another direction. You and all your excellent work inspire me.
Thats very generous Calgary411, thank you. Likewise. It was your comments and story that made me aware of this egregious wrong. I hope we can someday stand in front of the US consulate, with a big sign, to tell the world how they are treating those who can’t defend themselves.
@Tim
I am impressed that you would research the background of each FATCA creator at IRS and Treasury, never mind what their mother-in-laws did! You’ve made a very good point of how myopic in perspective these policy makers are.
*I actually had a hot lead that the family of the woman in charge of FATCA owned the movie theatre in Whistler, BC(along with a whole bunch of other movie theatres) along the west coast. I even had a picture of who I thought was her husband or brother with MP John Weston in Whistler(which is technically part of his riding going all the way down to West Van). However it turned after it was a different family with the same last name. The issue is her brother in law and husband have the same first names as members of the movie theatre owner family based in Beverly Hills, CA.
*What is interesting for example is the woman in charge of granting CLN’s at the State Department is an actual “career” US Government employee whereas the people in charge of FATCA tend to go back and forth between big time white shoe tax law firrms and working for the IRS/Treasury.
(The woman in charge of CLN’s)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janice_L._Jacobs
@Tim
@Tim
Perhaps we can think of you as the Perez Hilton of the world of US expats? 😉
John Weston actually has a very unusual riding. It encompasses West Vancouver, which residents are the highest income earners in all of Canada contrasted by the Sea-to-Sky & Whistler corridor and the Sunshine Coast, which both rely on tourism and resources to support their economies, and for the most part support the NDP. Luckily for him, the main population base is in West Van, but as a result, voters outside feel disenfranchised, at least from what I can ascertain as a resident of the Sunshine Coast.
*badger, Doug Shulman is stepping down:
@swisspinoy
Some people will do anything to avoid answering the NTA’s questions.
Whoa says –
My gosh you guys are dramatic, if you hate being an American so much,
you have the option to end it, no one is forcing you to stay American
are they?
The laugh of the day! A primo sally into deep black humor. You are one twisted joker, you know that? Wah ha ha! You have not yet got it that the US is in fact forcing folk to “stay American”? A year or two to do the severance paperwork … maybe. Another year or two for the IRS paperwork … maybe. Nice little dark sidetrip slid in there – you have the option to end it. Some affected extraterritorial “US persons” have already mentioned suicide as the one clear method of exit from the predatory clutches of sadistic Uncle.
Other paths to freedom are unfortunately far less clear, while Uncle keeps on devising new tortures. An honest government would say, OK, we’re really starting to fool around with the rules. If you were resident outside the US before, say, we started up our crazy new enforcement in 2004, just sign us up a piece of byebye paper and we’ll let you go, no hassle, no charge. The 21st century spirit of America is Abu Ghraib and Gitmo. Extraterritorials are being subjected to a parallel and milder form of indefinite detainment and perpetual stress. Presumed guilty, while spending years of their live and thousands of their dollars to try to establish innocence.
WhoaitsSteve, “I came here thinking that you guys were tax evaders who didn’t want to pay your fair share” – then something about an adventure.
I’m glad that you see how it really is! I just wish that the other 99,999999% of your countrymen knew the truth too.
It’s not really an adventure once you get settled in. You (we/us/me) are basically in the same routine: get up, go to work, pay taxes, go on vacation, as any other American, just outside the US. I know that life is challenging for any US Resident; but I would venture to say that life is even more challenging for us because some have language and cultural barriers. It’s not that easy to learn another language and be able to say everything you say in English in the other language. Now imagine you have one set of laws where you live, and then you hear or read about another set of laws (the US’s) that they say applies to you. It’s very stressful.
Feel free to make your list of the freedoms. I would like to see it to compare them to here. People also have the right to bear arms here, but the permits are more expensive. My wife wouldn’t let me keep a gun in the house though, even if I wanted to.
Whoait’sSteve – I’ve posted it here before, but just so you know:
The cost of giving up US Citizenship = $450
Many other nationalities = $10-$70 (usually just photocopying fees)
I don’t exactly think that having such a high fee compared to other countries is a good way to project that US Citizenship is somehow better. If anything, it makes us look like slaves buying our freedom.
@Roger, you say that it is our Constitutional right to give up citizenship. But the question is at what price; how much are they going to charge for it?
Is a US constitutional ‘right’ being exercised, if you have to pay for it?
A right deferred (by price, law, custom or practice) is a right denied.