@CanuckDoc found this story and suggests that it should be given a separate post, as it is a mainstream story about Banks shutting out Americans Abroad.
The story was originally posted at USA Today and then picked up at ABC News. It will be interesting to watch today to see if it starts showing up elsewhere. It it ever gets discussed on Brian Williams NBC nightly news, so my 86 year old mother sees it, you will know the story finally came back to the homeland! I don’t expect to hear or see it there, however.
Not just being shut out of banks, but romance and possibly breeding opportunities too. Could FATCA contribute to the extermination of US citizens abroad?
Wow! I never thought I would see this article appear in the US press in such an objective manner.
As someone who resides in Europe and who has recently opened two bank accounts since renouncing I can confirm that both were thrilled to see my CLN as one would have attached an onerous administration charge to the account of a “US person” (and require me to fill in a different form, I think it would have been Form W-9 or something like that) whilst the other would have completely refused to open the account at all.
@Bubblebustin
It will contribute to the extermination of “US citizenship” abroad. It’s has become clear that the single best investment in your future financial or otherwise is renouncing US citizenship.
Check this out:
https://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/letter-of-a-canadian-businessman-to-his-dual-u-s-canada-citizen-son-on-the-occasion-of-his-high-school-graduation/
It won’t be long before the Exit Tax applies to everybody. As Phil Hodgen says:
“Get out while the getting out is semi-good.”
And this:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/09/12/financial-advice-just-how-do-us-persons-abroad-now-effectively-plan-and-save-for-their-retirement/
*It is not only Americans abroad who are vanishing because of FATCA. At the going rate, US banks will be faced with costs and reporting requirements which may be difficult or impossible to comply with:
Energy markets have found that they can trade with out US persons:
Asia financial institutions are unhappy about FATCA
http://www.risk.net/asia-risk/feature/2207706/asia-financial-institutions-unhappy-about-scope-of-fatca
Overall, I’d say that US politicians have been ignoring us for all the wrong reasons and I fear that the US is going to suffer from this more than anyone.
@swisspinoy
You hit the nail on the head. I’ve long believed that FATCA will die not because of anything that the rest of the world does, but because US banks will balk at the cost (to them off course) of reciprocity, and others with knowledge will start pounding on politicians about the unintended consequences of all this on Americans.
It seems that no one heeded the wake-up call that Eduardo Saverin gave them. They were so eager to demonize him as a tax cheat and traitor that they they failed to recognize his real reasons for pulling the plug — it will soon be impossible for any US citizens to function in the global financial community.
They have known this all along. Now, they are seeing Economic Patriotism (Barry) and Global Elites (Billary). They know what those code words mean, and what is coming. They were afraid that they would be caught with their pants down behind the laundry bin.
Better to look proactive.
They have known this all along. Now, they are seeing Economic Patriotism (Barry) and Global Elites (Billary). They know what those code words mean, and what is coming. They were afraid that they would be caught with their pants down behind the laundry bin.
Better to look proactive.
(Oops, had posted on the wrong page)
Uncle Sam blatantly betrays the casus belli of the American Revolution — “No Taxation without Representation.” America’s Founders roll in their graves as today’s politicians treat Americans living abroad worse than the British treated the colonists. Citizenship-based taxation is a human rights abuse. Not only do Americans abroad have no Senators or Congressmen to represent their interests in Congress, they receive no benefits from US citizenship other than a simple travel document.
Americans living abroad don’t use US infrastructure (roads, highways, ports, dams, bridges). They don’t use any US public services whatsoever such as schools, hospitals, police, fire, courts etc. Americans abroad cannot collect unemployment benefits. They cannot receive Medicare. What moral right does Uncle Sam have in making Americans abroad pay for services “homelanders” receive but ex-pats don’t?
1,800 renunciations of US citizenship (declarations of independence) last year is just the beginning. More will certainly follow. Good job Uncle Sam. You are following the path of the British Empire, while Americans abroad ironically follow in the footsteps of America’s founders.
I agree that the policy sucks it’s horrible, too complex, too expensive, and should be eliminated or modified to make it easy to comply with, but the whining. My gosh you guys are dramatic, if you hate being an American so much, you have the option to end it, no one is forcing you to stay American are they?
Actually they are! Renouncing opens you up to a wide range of punitive penalties. If the USA is so great, why won’t they let their people go?
Time to put a 363% penalty on Stevie boy’s assets. Squeal like a pig, boy.
@JoeSmith A truly desperate animal will gnaw through its own limb to free itself from a life threatening bind, the discourse here seems to me to be more dramatic than actually life threatening and putting people in to actual desperate situations. I completely understand the situation and how unfair it is (I don’t think it is right, but it doesn’t look like it is going to change in the near future,) you make a conscious decision to remain an American and live outside its borders even knowing that comes with strings attached.
@Mark Twain For what? Hey don’t get me wrong, I’m on your side I think the taxation issue is ridiculous, the reporting obligation is over the top, overly complex, and not right all together. I don’t like paying taxes either, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
@Whoaitssteve
Thanks for chiming in – always important to get some perspective from the homeland. You should try the experience of actually having to live with the consequences of being a US citizen abroad. Then you could add some feeling to your obvious understanding.
I was wondering if you would list in point form what you see as the advantages to being a US citizen and living in the US. The reason I ask is that, as Joe Smith just pointed renunciations are accelerating. I believe that the renunciations are a defensive thing. The reason people renounce is that they want the same freedoms in life that others have. They want to be free to live, work, seek employment, invest, marry, travel, plan for retirement, without being subjected to tax consequences that they couldn’t imagine. On a personal note, I was brought up believing that the United States was – as Margaret Thatcher once said – “That great citadel of freedom of justice.” I can now see that is wrong. The treatment of US citizens abroad is so punitive that it is really a human rights issue. Hence, people renounce and many people will be paying lots of money to sever ties with the US of A – “that great citadel of freedom and justice.”
Now, I ask you would you please list some benefits of being a U.S. citizen. If a U.S. citizen came to you and said:
I want freedom, the only want I can be free it not be a U.S. citizen, what would you say? Why would somebody remain a U.S. citizen.
Of course, all of this could be avoided if one were to move back to the U.S. So, what are the advantages to living in the U.S.?
We can thank American Citizens Abroad for this. No doubt that their new lobbyist has pushed for media access and the timing is perfectly matched with the Economic Patriots
@PatrickHenry
“What moral right does Uncle Sam have in making Americans abroad pay for services “homelanders” receive but ex-pats don’t?”
Actually you are putting this in the best possible light. Remember that 47% of Homelanders don’t pay taxes. Therefore, the real point is that U.S. citizens abroad are not just contributing to the expenses of homelanders. They are actually paying directly for services – used only by Homelanders – that Homelanders don’t pay for at all. Now, before you get excited. I said those U.S. citizens abroad who pay taxes. It is a myth that U.S. citizens abroad don’t owe taxes. Any U.S. citizen abroad who has more than a weekly pay check and an RRSP will likely owe taxes to the U.S. because of the differences in tax rules.
*WhoaIt’sSteve, I doubt that anyone here hates America or doesn’t want to be American. It’s rather unfortunate that we don’t have any representation or are not better respected for being where we are. I think that America underestimates the value of its citizens living abroad.
I believe Whoaitssteve will fault us for having made the huge error in judgement in deciding to leave the US in the first place. We have only ourselves to blame, no Steve?
@WhoaitsSteve
When MarkTwain suggested putting a penalty of 363% on your assets your answer was:
“@Mark Twain For what? Hey don’t get me wrong, I’m on your side I think
the taxation issue is ridiculous, the reporting obligation is over the
top, overly complex, and not right all together. I don’t like paying
taxes either, but you gotta do what you gotta do.”
I will answer the question you ask: “For what?” Here is the answer. There is no moral reason at all to penalize you and we know that. So, the answer is, because we want to. Because we can get away with it. Because you are helpless. Because we just want your money. Now, that is why U.S. citizens abroad are being penalized. Because of “Form Crime” – not filling out forms that you couldn’t imagine could have existed. In other words, we will penalize you just because we want to. Just because we want your money. That is the reason.
Now, that’s what U.S. citizens abroad live with and fear daily. You seem seem somehow outraged by the suggestion when it is applied to you.
Steve, the only minor surgery is surgery that happens to someone else.
In closing, although frustrated I do very much value your contributions to this blog and wish you would contribute more often. But, please consider this comment.
*bubblebustin, in my case, yes. I chose to work abroad and advance in my career instead of collecting unemployment checks and food stamps. Only I can be blamed for that. I could have stayed in the US as an unemployed bum while demanding that Americans abroad “pay their fair share”. Stupid me!
@renounce If a US citizen making their life abroad came to me and sought only those freedoms that you mention that they cannot partake in as a citizen abroad, my answer would be I guess you have to decide on your own if it’s worth it in your situation to remain a US citizen, return to the country, or if your citizenship is important enough to comply.
I came from thinking you were all tax cheats and trying to evade your fair share to understanding that you are just making your own way in foreign lands, many times acquiring foreign citizenship, I think that’s great. What an adventure! Much more adventurous than I am. Having chosen that particular path maybe your US citizenship has become incompatible with the foreign life you have chosen, it’s not disrespectful, it’s not negative, it’s just different and in your situation there should be no shame in ending your relationship with us.
The only worthy advantage I feel that US citizenship has above all and any others is the right to enter, reside in permanently, and pursue employment for any employer in the US, something that this particular group finds no interest in at all. I could make a trivial list of advantages (things like the right to bear arms, true freedom of expression, voting, consumer choices, vacation spots, employment and small business opportunity…) but that’s negligible as what matters to me might not matter to you or anyone else.
*WhoaIt’sSteve, all the freedoms that I had in America, I also have in Switzerland, to a greater or lesser degree. I’ve lived about 20 years in the US and about 20 years in Switzerland, being proud of being a citizen of both nations and enjoying the benefits of both nations. The problem now is that America is trying to limit my freedoms in Switzerland, and this is unacceptable. Under existing conditions, I can only continue enjoying the freedoms I’ve enjoyed for the past 40 years by returning to the US or renouncing US citizenship. Yet, returning is not an option prior to retirement since I came here to find work and found the employment situation to be favorable.
@bubblebustin Nope, personal preference is what makes the Western world the greatest part of the world in particular the US. I’ve come from thinking one way to another that your choice to live outside is a fine, admirable choice, but that it may be incompatible with remaining a US citizen if you don’t want to comply.
@renounce There’s a huge obvious solution and that’s for a number of you to bite the bullet return to the US and become lobbyists, but that would require you to return to the country, something which from the undercurrents you all are very averse to, if you don’t have representation you have to create it. Living an easy life abroad complaining and sending e-mail isn’t a way to show them that you’re serious. For one thing sending an e-mail requires no effort, to be taken seriously you need to put it in an envelope, stamp it, and mail it in, that shows at least a modicum of effort, I learned this from some friends who now work with OFA, and who were aides for one of Ohio’s representatives. Next you need to schedule meetings and get face to face. I’m sorry I’m frustrating, I really have come to empathize with your plight.
@whoaitsSteve
Thank you very much for your response. I agree with you that the one real advantage is access to the U.S. for purposes of living or employment. That can be something of value. If it’s free, then it is a “no brainer”. But, it clearly is not, so the question is whether being able to live in the U.S. is worth what it costs. Different people would answer that question differently.
But, I would like to explore another topic with you. The second part of your answer focused on advantages that could be characterized as a “bundle of freedoms”. When I lived in the U.S. I also thought that the U.S. was a very free country. It may have been more free when I lived there. But, I do think things may have changed. Are you sure that the U.S. is as free as you suggest? Did you know that the U.S. has 5% of the worlds population but 25% of the worlds prison population. Did you know that at the height of Stalin’s terror the Soviets were imprisoning something like 800 people per (I think 100,000). The U.S. is not far from that. What are your thoughts on that?
Democracy. Again, this is just to provoke discussion, I am very interested in your point of view, but let’s consider American democracy. Two political parties that are nothing more than private clubs. A two party state is only one party removed from a one party state. It is almost impossible for third party candidates or independent candidates to play a meaningful role.
Thanks again for your contributions – really appreciate them.
*WhoaIt’sSteve, I have to focus on my career and don’t have the time or money to do any serious political activism. In my view, I’ve already done much more than I should have and if US politicians can’t recognize the great value of their little free ambassadors abroad, then they will have to learn to live without them.