I was born in the US to Canadian parents in 1954. We moved back to Canada in 1966 when I was 12. I have a Canadian certificate of “Canadian Citizen Born Abroad”. I’m now 58. I’ve never worked in the US, never filed any US tax form, never had a US passport. My Canadian passport of course says I was born in the US. As a kid, I remember my mother saying I was a dual citizen up to a certain age. I remember going to the US consulate here in Calgary in the early 70′s. I was somewhere between 18 and 22 or so. I went to ask if I was a dual citizen and what advantage there was to it. As I recall, I was told dual citizenship didn’t really exist and that I wasn’t an American citizen.
I have no idea where I fit into all this IRS/FATCA/FUBAR business. Of course, I want no part of it.
Should I go to the US consul in Calgary and ask questions? I like the idea of some certificate declaring that I’m not a US citizen and have no obligations to any US department. Does the process of relinquishing apply to me?
I’ve spent my whole adult life believing I’m only a Canadian!
The State Department can’t arbitrarily strip a person of citizenship who has committed a potentially expatriating act. But what if the State Department told someone that they were not a citizen back in the day before the Supreme Court changed the law? Does that person then become a citizen even if they don’t want to be one?
Also, I wonder if anyone can come up with further documentation proving that a Canadian like this is not a US citizen. Such written documentation would be useful for quite a number of people if we could.
*@whatami, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that if you were born today in the US to Canadian citizen parents, you would be considered by the US as a US citizen, in spite of the fact that you have a “Registration of Birth Abroad” issued by the Canadian Government.
Traveling by highway, since the US does not ordinarily check the passports of persons traveling to Canada by highway, such a person could probably leave the US and cross into Canada with a Canadian passport with no problem. And since there is no US immigration check of passports of persons traveling outside of the US by plane, I suspect that such a person would not be impeded from leaving the US using a Canadian passport either.
There are, it does appear, still opportunities for “many a slip, between the cup and the lip” as far as strict enforcement of the letter of nationality laws when dual or multiple citizenships are involved.
I too believe that the purpose of FATCA and the more strict enforcement of FBAR reporting was intended to catch persons living in the US who were hiding income abroad from the IRS, but that the IRS now recognizes that it also is uncovering a multitude of minnows – US persons living abroad – who probably were not even thought about when this legislation was enacted. But this being the case the IRS is not about to let the opportunity pass to take these minnows to the cleaners. No question that the enforcement costs per dollar of additional revenue collected are astronomical, but the IRS will gladly take all it can from those who fall into its Amnesty program traps because, in accordance with these laws, they are also fair game. But the IRS resources are limited and they also have to establish priorities.
@bubblebustin:
I spoke with my mother today. She’s 89, but she remembers 1966 better than last Thursday. She didn’t register our births. Everything was handled at the border in 1966. She said it was late at night.They wanted her to sign some forms so she could receive Family Allowance. She refused and said “Oh, no, I don’t need that:!”. They eventually convinced her that everybody received it in Canada whether they needed the money or not.
I’m away from home so I can’t check, but I believe the date on the RBA is a couple weeks after the border crossing. If I remember correctly, it has a minister’s signature or stamp, but I don’t know that it was handled in any special way, especially if it was issued within a month of us entering.
I think all that matters is that I have the RBA. The doc you quoted also says:
“An RBA is proof of citizenship and can be used today, for example, to apply for a passport.”
It’s not reasonable that one would have to spend the rest of their life repeatedly prooving that a mistake was not made in issuing your RBA. I have it; I’m good with that end of things.
@TrueNorth
All I remember from the 70’s is that when I asked the consulate what does dual citizen mean and when does it expire (my mother had told me it expired at some age, like 18 or 21), he said there was no such thing and something like “You’re Canadian”, or “You’re not a US citizen”, or something to that effect. I was only there a few minutes. They sent me on my way like I had no business there.
I spoke with a fellow yesterday, not on this forum, who should be getting a back-dated CLN to 1980. He was born in the US to US parents. They came to Canada with no ties here when he was 5. When older, he got a US passport and even registered for the military/draft (although I think the draft was long over). Then in 1980 he obtained Canadian citizenship and never had any further US contact (no passport renewal, etc). In other words, he acted as if he didn’t intend to retain his US citizenship. I don’t know if he made any relinquishing declaration in 1980 or not, but his relinquishment meeting in Calgary seemed to go well and was told he’d hear back in 2 to 12 months.
He’s more American than I, and I’m certainly more Canadian than he. All my grandparents, parents and my brother were born in Canada. My parents and 2 uncles and an aunt all served in the Canadian Armed Forces during WWII. It would be ironic and frustrating to no end if I have a harder time getting a CLN than he did! I’ve had no ties to the US since we left in ’66.
But yes, I’m worried now that I have no expatriating act to point to other than appologizing often and saying Eh?, carrying a Canadian passport and voting in Canadian elections.
*@WhatamI, If you have no prior expatriating act you may not be able to get a backdated CLN. You do have the option to simply renounce, that is not hard at all and you will get a CLN probably dated sometime in 2012 if you are lucky, or 2013 if they are backlogged.
*@whatami Canada did not allow duel citizenship till 1977 so I would think to Canada you would have given up your other citizenship when you got your passport in 1976. What the US thinks?
Where do you think all the IRS and FBAR compliance business fits into the paths of relinquishing and renouncing (in my case)?
@whatami
You should really talk to someone qualified to give you some sound legal advice for your case.
@bubblebustin
Do you mean a cross-border tax expert or a citizenship lawyer? The tax people seem to gleefully rub their hands together and want to dive right in to preparing years of 1040s and FBARs etc and charge over $10,000. I spoke to them before realizing that my trip to the US consul in Calgary in the early 70’s could be significant.
@WhatAmI
Read calgary411’s story. She spoke to a tax lawyer, started to file tax returns and then at a later time was told by an immigration lawyer, that she had previously ‘relinquished’ her U.S. citizenship. So I would think that you might want to speak to a lawyer who specializes in U.S.citizenship law.
My guess (and this is only a guess) is that because you were born ‘a dual citizen’, you would not be granted a back dated CLN but would have to renounce. I am basing the guess only on what I have read here and on other sites that speak to U.S. Nationality Law. However, if this is true, you would still be able to apply for a CLN by renouncing. I believe as a renunciant you are then required to bring your tax returns/forms up to date. As a dual, you would not be considered a covered expatriate.
But as bubblebustin has said, you probably should speak to a professional and then make your decision on what you want to do. You could also choose to ignore the whole thing and chances are you could stay under the radar.
OK, I see that finding an immigration laywer seems a likelyhood.
I have to ask again though, how can one stay under the radar if our banks cave to the US and FATCA?
Thanks, tiger. Yes, my story might help WhatAmI. Just clarification. I started with a cross-border accounting firm that deals with the cross-border oil & gas employees in Calgary, as well as others. By getting their advice that, yes I was a US citizen (whether I thought so or not) and I had to file back US returns. In hindsight, I wish I had first gone to an immigration lawyer for my first advice. If so, my story might be very different as those who came to Canada the same time I did, with the same being reported from most of us that we were advised we would be relinquishing our US citizenship when we became Canadian citizens, are now successfully relinquishing, the dates of their CLNs going back to those times. One appointment / no $450 fee required (though that is not the significant part for me — although I object to even having to pay that to renounce). I now have a US tax lawyer and accounting firm. I’m not going to advertise here, but I TRUST what they are doing for me (as I absolutely cannot do it myself – end of story). So, I am using retirement savings to pay, but will get to one of my goals — my renunciation (as well at about the same time that of my adult daughter and my husband). Alas, there still appears to way to renounce the “supposed” US citizenship on behalf of my son — Parents / Guardians / Trustees are told by the US Consulate that they do not have such right. This, I mainatain, is wrong and immoral — why tie individuals with developmental disability or any other kind of mental incapacity (who do not understand the concept of citizenship nor the consequences of retaining or relinquishing) to the cost of administration of complying with the US year after year after year after year when those making decisions for them conclude is not in their best interests — with no $$ owed to the US? I understand common sense. I don’t understand this.
@whatami
Ditto Tiger’s advice, but bear in mind that the choice to try to ‘stay under the radar’ should be a well thought out one too, as from reading here I’m sure you will do. Any decision you make will bring challenges and difficulties. In mine and my husband’s case (he was born and lived his entire life in Canada and is a US citizen through his American father) it was easier for us to ‘walk into the sh*tstorm’ and take as much control of the situation than having to put a lot of mental energy into trying to stay one step ahead of the IRS for the rest of our lives. With FATCA looming, the game appears to be rigged in their favour at this point. My husband with a Canadian birthplace could have flown under the radar indefinitely, not so for me with my US birthplace (tattoo). That being said, it’s been both emotionally and financially costly and since we haven’t had a response to our OVDI submission it still remains unresolved. My advice: seek advice to get an idea of the financial costs of compliance and consider all the emotional and financial costs in making either decision.
@Calgary
I have told your story regarding your developmentally delayed son and the inability of renouncing his US citizenship to many people. It breaks my heart any time I think of what you are dealing with as to the renunciation process and for the registered disability plans.
My siblings, all living in the U.S. were particularly astounded by your story. Our youngest sibling (soon to be 62 years old), is both physically handicapped (Polio when he was 3 yrs old) and mentally handicapped (born with cerebral palsy).
I speak from experience, the U.S. does very little for the disabled. My brother continues to live in my late mother’s condo since her death in 2004. He has about 10 – 15 hours of ‘help’ each week ie help with cooking, going to medical appointments etc. What he does not have is enough money to pay his bills and also eat. So myself and my other three siblings subsidize his income.
As you know, only too well, the U.S. will not/does not take care of their most vulnerable. You are trying to do what is best for your family and because of your place of birth, you are being hindered in that attempt. The whole thing is beyond belief and the story needs to be told.
*@WhatamI, I agree with Tiger, getting a backdated CLN will probably be difficult. The facts of your case are nearly the same as my own. I had to renounce and my CLN is dated 2012. The only real difference is you were told you were no longer a US citizen, this is probably the one best chance for a backdated CLN.
@Calgary, Tiger
It is the victimization of our most vulnerable and weak and absolutely deplorable. I don’t recognize this country called the United States of America.
Thanks, tiger.
I know I am supported here. Mainly, I know there are many such others that will need to be supported and it is for them too that I won’t give up. You and I and even your siblings know that my son (and others) are better off in Canada. Your brother is very dependent on you, his wonderful siblings.
On another note…
Even given the process of aging and being in a care facility, like the example of this 89 year-old man who would likely have no realization of what is going on (but maybe he’s been compliant all along and this is not a problem?): http://www.carp.ca/2012/09/07/caregivers-diary-a-chequered-career/. From this account, he would be subject to all we are. Is this not one more indignity for this man (and others like him — more and more as the demographics change) and families — realizing FATCA, US income tax returns, etc., etc. at the end of one’s life. How will these increasing numbers of us (with or without dementia issues) be dealt with?
@Calgary
The implications of the US’s citizenship based taxation will surely make us all go MAD! At what point does our own government where we call home say “enough is enough”? Has Flaherty done this already by saying Canada will not collect penalties and tax from Canadians for the IRS, encouraging US tax evasion in those very words?
@bubblebustin,
I appreciate what Finance Minister Flaherty has said. But, really, is it enough — it is, after all, just our perception of what he is saying, nothing I want to solely rely on, go to a court of law on. I would like to see more shown by Canada or know if we are to be collateral damage to FATCA and all.
*And don’t forget that when the person living outside of the US who is considered by the US to be a US citizen dies, then his estate is subject to US estate taxes as well.
Thanks for that additional, Roger. And, so many (I think) have no idea what lies ahead for them!
*What am I You will have NO TROUBLE with our banks, Believe me . They have no business asking where you were born. Tell them exactly that. None of their business. I have read the proposed FATCA regs in detail and queried financial advisors at length. They won’t ask where we were born and we won’t tell them.
For example, Scotia MacCleod has on their application for a brokerage account 4 checkboxes for citizenship 1 Canada 2 US 3 Dual 4 other.
You simply would check no 1 and show your driver’s licence. End of story. I’ll say it once more and for the last time Do nothing: rest easy.
*Roger. So what. Good luck to them.
@WhatamI:
If you have not read the posts on “Dominant Nationality“, I suggest that you do. As any person born in Canada and who has lived in Canada, you are a Canadian by dominant nationality.
My point is this: If in the unlikely scenario that the Canadian banks rat on you to the IRS, then the IRS must figure out some way to collect from you. The Canadian government has said it will not, nor is it required to do so by treaty. You have no assets in the US (so you indicated). Thus, the only remaining way for the US could collect something from you is through an international tribunal. There, such a tribunal would laugh the US out of court, because it would be in severe violation of International Law, since trying to collect from you because the doctrines of dual citizenship, make you a dominant national of Canada: this means that you are for all and intents and purposes a Canadian and a Canadian only, despite the USA’s attempt to claim you.
If your only concern now is having a CLN so that you can conveniently travel to the USA, and for that reason you wish to cede your international rights, your Canadian rights and your Universal Rights. In my view it is not worth it, and I say this to anyone in a similar situation. If you have never entered the US tax system, you have Canadian citizenship and you live in Canada and all your assets are in Canada–if you only have to visit the United States occasionally for business or pleasure, then why would you cede your citizenship rights to this desperate predator? Stay free, and stay clear of the tax system, and for now traveling will not likely be problem (provided you don’t spend a ton of money on a vacation that requires going to or through the US–but many Caribbean Islands, Mexico, etc, have direct flights with Air Canada, West Jet and charter airlines). That’s my opinion. I would also stay clear of lawyers (I have done so) until such a unlikely scenario where you have been charged with a crime, for that’s when you need a lawyer. This whole tax jihad is a money trap: if you don’t pay the IRS you will pay tax preparers and lawyers. The best thing is that if you’ve never been in the system don’t get in now.
*@Petros, As far as I know (correct me if I am wrong) the concept of Dominant Nationality, although it exists under Canadian law, does not exist in US law. Under US law you either are, or you are not a US citizen. If you are a US citizen, although another country of which you are a dual citizen, may consider that your dominant nationality is of that country, the US does not make any such distinction.
You are certainly correct that the US has great difficulty in enforcing its tax laws as long as you remain beyond its borders, but the moment you step within US territory where US authorities can get their hands on you, then you are vulnerable to the enforcement of US tax laws.
Every day the US seems to become more sophisticated in enforcing its tax laws, so even though a person born in the US who has not renounced or relinquished US citizenship and does not have a CLN to substantiate that he is not a US citizen has had no problem in the past in briefly visiting the US, it does not necessarily follow that could change from one day to the next.
@Roger,
You are right, the powers in Washington are more than happy to use us as ‘lost leaders’ in order to appear that they’re helping to fill the US Treasury’s coffers with previously uncollected tax.