I was born in the US to Canadian parents in 1954. We moved back to Canada in 1966 when I was 12. I have a Canadian certificate of “Canadian Citizen Born Abroad”. I’m now 58. I’ve never worked in the US, never filed any US tax form, never had a US passport. My Canadian passport of course says I was born in the US. As a kid, I remember my mother saying I was a dual citizen up to a certain age. I remember going to the US consulate here in Calgary in the early 70′s. I was somewhere between 18 and 22 or so. I went to ask if I was a dual citizen and what advantage there was to it. As I recall, I was told dual citizenship didn’t really exist and that I wasn’t an American citizen.
I have no idea where I fit into all this IRS/FATCA/FUBAR business. Of course, I want no part of it.
Should I go to the US consul in Calgary and ask questions? I like the idea of some certificate declaring that I’m not a US citizen and have no obligations to any US department. Does the process of relinquishing apply to me?
I’ve spent my whole adult life believing I’m only a Canadian!
The State Department can’t arbitrarily strip a person of citizenship who has committed a potentially expatriating act. But what if the State Department told someone that they were not a citizen back in the day before the Supreme Court changed the law? Does that person then become a citizen even if they don’t want to be one?
Also, I wonder if anyone can come up with further documentation proving that a Canadian like this is not a US citizen. Such written documentation would be useful for quite a number of people if we could.
@Roger
Yes, Petros is correct. My expatriating act was being natuarlized in Canada in 1972. However, the oath I took at that time, was twofold – an oath of allegiance to the Queen and her heirs and a renunciatory oath. My point was that renunciatory oath perhaps makes the case stronger that MY INTENT was to relinquish U.S. citizenship when I became a Canadian citizen. And of course, I have done nothing since that time to indicate otherwise.
On another thread ‘DID YOU RELINQUISH BEFORE FEBRUARY 6, 1995’ Clint posted a letter sent to him in 1988 by a U.S. consulate. The letter was in response to one that Clint wrote inquiring about the possibility of retaining his U.S. citizenship in the event that he naturalized in Canada. They address the issue by suggesting that he write a statement that he ‘intends to maintain his U.S. citizenship’. Later in the same paragraph, they state: “You should not, of course, make or sign any statements in connection with a foreign naturalization that reflects renunciation of present citizenship.”
The oath I took in 1972 was as follows: “I hereby renounce all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign sovereign or state of whom or which I may at this time be a subject or citizen. I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, her Heirs and Successors According to Law and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfill my duties as a Canadian citizen, so Help me God.” I spoke these words before the judge and I have the signed copy of the words.
As I said, I believe the renunciatory oath improves the case that I voluntarily and with intent relinquished my U.S. citizenship by becoming a Canadian citizen in 1972. This is what I plan on taking to the U.S. consulate later this month.
*@ Roger
Back in the “old” days, it was indeed an expatriating act to swear an oath to a foreign state. Period. It is still listed as one of the 7 acts, just modified. I believe it was SCOTUS that decided later on, that it may, or not be, depending upon intent. This is the crux of the issue for those who have had the unpleasant surprise of having the US declare that they are still USCs.
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
POTENTIALLY EXPATRIATING ACTS
Section 349 of
the Immigration and Nationality Act (8
U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. citizens are subject to loss of
citizenship if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily
and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Briefly stated,
these acts include:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
or its political subdivisions (Sec. 349 (a) (2) INA);
hostilities against the U.S. or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned
officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);
nationality of that foreign state or (b) an oath or declaration of allegiance is
required in accepting the position (Sec. 349 (a) (4) INA);
officer outside the United States (sec. 349 (a) (5) INA);
narrow statutory conditions) (Sec. 349 (a) (6) INA);
@Roger –
There are two ways of losing US citizenship (for most people; ignoring recondite forms of treason and things like that): renunciation and relinquishment.
Renunciation is what it sounds like; it’s what I did.
Relinquishment is what Petros did. It involves having performed one of the potentially expatriating acts in the INA (other than renunciation), which used to be automatically expatriating, but which after Afroyim v. Rusk and Vance v. Terazzas became only potentially expatriating, based on the person’s intent, and asking for a CLN.
more here: http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
Yes, six people did all post at once. 🙂
@Halifax
Yes, we did. Too bad we aren’t sitting around together,drinking a glass of wine and ‘toasting’ Nobedreamer for having her CLN in hand. I will just have to drink alone. Oh, well!!!
*Thanks to all for the clarifications about the intent to relinquish US citizenship when becoming a naturalized citizen of Canada. To persons who perform this epotentially expatriating act today sill relinquish there US citizenship, or is it now also a requirement that the person appear before a US consular official abroad and formally renounce?
To those who became naturalized Canadian ciizens in those earlier days, did you also return your unexpired US passports to a US consulate, or just quit using them?
As a Canadian born abroad, who “came home” at age 12, I never did or signed anything. I’m a Canadian born abroad. Someone suggested to me that as a 12-yr old, I couldn’t have legally relinquished US ties and my mother couldn’t have done it for me.
Does this make my case harder to get a back-dated CLN?
Of course, having been told by the consul in Calgary when I was 18 to 20 or so that I didn’t have dual-citizenship, I certainly wouldn’t have tried to continue and declare anything to anybody. I had nothing to relinquish at the time, and the guy just sent me on my way.
@ Roger,
No, even today if you relinquish your US citizenship upon taking your new country’s citizenship, you do not have to formally renounce (the US citizenship still ends when you take the oath to your new country.)
However, to make it official you do have attend at a US consulate to notify the US of your relinquishment by signing forms at the consulate. Two of the forms are the same as with a renunciation: a questionnaire (4079); and statement of understanding of consequences (4081) — but you don’t use the renunciation oath form.
The difference since ca. 1990 is that Dept of State’s administrative presumption changed. Before then, it was presumed that you wanted to lose US citizenship. Since then, it is presumed you want to keep it. So, the burden of proof (balance of probabilities) is now on the person.
It’s not an adversarial procedure, though. A consular officer determines your intent from reading your questionnaire and optional statement, which many of us have opted to write to further illustrate that our post-relinquishment conduct was consistent with loss of US citizenship.
Can’t really reply to your other question, though, as I never had a US passport. But as we were told we would automatically lose our US citizenship (due to the administrative presumption at that time) and never told about CLNs or to go to a US consulate, I’d guess that most people just kept their US passports as a souvenir or discarded them.
@WhatAmI –
I’m not a lawyer, but the statement you signed for your first adult passport application, plus subsequent ones, plus all your crossings of the US border identified as a Canadian, should IMHO entitle you to a CLN backdated to your first adult passport application. This will be well outside the statute of limitations for tax offences, meaning that you don’t have to worry about filing all those returns.
The passport application says:
INA s. 349 says:
Broken Man: Ah, excellent! I think somebody mentioned this earlier but the significance didn’t click in my mind. It does now, thanks.
My first Canadian passport is right here in my hand now. Issued Aug 1976. It has US Immigration entry stamps from Apr 1977, Aug 1980 and Apr 1981.
Roger please see the database we are building regarding Renunciations and Relinquishments: (US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2 link) at http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/. There are now reported several successful relinquishments for the 60’s and 70’s and of Petros’ more recent relinquishment. Many now have their Certificates of Loss of Nationality in hand. There have been 17 CLNs issued for Canadians; 10 for persons in the Rest of the World, for a total of 27. To date there have been reported to us 40 renunciations and 22 relinquishments.
[I could have had a relinquishment entry here as well had I not made my mistakes — 1) consulting a cross-border accounting firm for advice instead of an Immigration / Nationality lawyer when I first hear of all this; 2) back-filing US tax returns for 2005 onward; 3) being intimidated at a US border crossing and told that the next time I crossed, it was to be with a US passport not a Canadian passport — so I applied for and obtained my first US passport (I had never had a US passport and only crossed with a Canadian passport previous to that (or just a driver’s license before the passport was required) and 4) voting for the very first time in a US election in 2008.]
Interesting thread…Good thing that the original poster lives in Canada, because I don’t think that the “doing nothing” approach will work anymore in any European country. I also don’t believe for a second that any European bank will accept anything less than a CLN to prove non-citizenship status here since they’re all so fidgety and overly-anxious about avoiding US citizens now. Also, seeing as you have to show a passport or ID card when you open a bank account here there is no way to hide where you were born.
The issue about being forced to use the US passport whilst flying is interesting because I experienced this in reverse. During my last trip to the US I checked in with my EU passport on the return flight home and they immediately asked me to present my US passport as I had to fly as a US citizen. No amount of arguing with them that I was flying home and wished to do so as a citizen of my home country would persuade them. On the flight over there from Belgium I had no such problems at check in and only brought out the US passport right at the border on the US side. I always tried to fly exclusively with my non-US passport for safety reasons and to only present the US one at the US border itself, and had had absolutely no problems with flying this way until this last trip there. The situation has since deteriorated further it seems.
*Don Pomodormo, the “expectation of US immigration is that if you have US citizenship you will use a US passport to enter or leave the US, so more and more when you board a flight to to the US from a foreign country they want to make sure you have a US passpoart.
When you leave the US with a US passport it is of no concern to the US if you present a foreign passport of the other country of your dual citzenship when you arrive in that country. If you are fliying to a 3rd country you generally have a choice as to which passport you present when you land in that country. If you are a dual citizen of that country many of them will insist that you present the passport of that country and will not admit you if you are only carrying a US passport. Several years ago (1967) when I traveled from Lima, Peru to Buenos Airies, Argentina my traveling compqnion,a British citizen who had been born in Argentina, was refused entry because he did not have an Argentine passport. He was deported back to Peru on the next flight where he went to the Argentine consulate and was issued an Argentine passport, returning to Buenos Airies on the first available flight two days later.
@Roger Conklin
Of course – I always showed the correct passport to the US or EU border control. I just tried to make sure that I was registered as an EU citizen on each flight manifest for safety reasons.
*Don Pomodoro, just as a matter of information: will airlines allow dual citizen data on flight manifests for persons who use one passport for departure and the other one for arrival? If not, does this cause confusion or any problem when they arrive in immigration of the destination country using a different passport from what they used when they boarded the flight?
@Roger Conklin
People themselves are confused – I see people checking in everyday at airports who just plop down two
passports on the counter and let the airport staff do the rest. I think that airlines will need to start listing people not just by a single nationality – Cases of dual nationality even within the EU alone are now everywhere and you can even be presented with this problem as a dual EU citizen. For example, when I fly between Italy and the UK (or any other country outside Schengen where I would normally use just my Belgian passport) I have to present myself as an Italian citizen at the border upon arrival.
It seems silly to me that people flying between two countries where they
hold both nationalities have to choose one for the flight manifest – A
rather simple, but no doubt absurdly expensive computer system overhaul
should be able to account for all of the dual citizens making their way
around in the future hopefully.
Uncle tell…we filed all the papers in the spring of last year and filed all the final papers on time this year…all sent registered mail so we know they received them…to this date not one word from the IRS…I renounced and my spouse who was in the exact situation as *tiger relinquished and we have received our CLN’s and we have crossed the border with no problem since then….For what it’s worth… I think they are after U.S. tax cheats..not after honest duals who are caught up in this horror show..If you file everything truthfully what would be the point of them coming after you? The Canadian Government has said they won’t collect fines….it costs them lots of money to audit and prosecute cases…I think they have bigger fish to fry..we know how terrible it is to be in this situation because we were both faced with it …we had the sleepless nights.. the fear of crossing the border…you name it we had it…but not now…So for us we have no regrets on getting compliant or losing our U.S. citizenship.
Free at last!
*@Freeatlast
I guess what I’m mostly concerned about are the possible FBAR fines. I wouldn’t be owing any taxes, but the uncertainty about the FBAR fines is just too much. I’m living in Switzerland and am not sure how much protection I’d enjoy, they haven’t raised a finger yet for all those Swiss / US dual citizens resident in Switzerland who’s bank accounts have been closed!
I’m glad all went well for you so far, and I hope it stays that way too 🙂
Freeatlast – An A+ to you for being inspiring … and free!
*I have a question: Since Whatami was told by the US consulate that although he was born in the US but accompanied his Canadian-citizen parents when they moved back to Canada in 1966 when he was 12 years old, what sort of an” expatriating act” could he have done to lose his US citizenship?
For Canadian citizen born in the US who is of voting age, is voting in a Canadian election considered an “expatriating act” for which the State Department will, if formally requested, issue a CLN?
*Roger You don’t appear to be listening. In those days the US state dep’t didn’t recognize dual citizenship. Period.
Your second question. No it is not an expatriating act.
Wasn’t Whatami born a Canadian, as he was registered as a Canadian born abroad?
Yes, I have a certificate of “Registration of Birth Abroad”, which says I’m a Canadian Citizen pursuant to some named section of the Canada citizen act. It’s dated 1966, when we returned to Canada.
@Whatami
According to this information, your parents would have had to at that time, register you within 2 years of birth in order for you to be considered a Canadian citizen.
‘In common with the rules for all children born outside Canada to a Canadian parent between January 1, 1947, and February 14, 1977, in order for a border baby to become a Canadian citizen, the birth had to be registered with citizenship officials. Under the 1947 Canadian Citizenship Act, the child had to be registered within two years of the birth. This period was extended by the 1977 Citizenship Act and those whose birth had not yet been registered could register it between February 15, 1977, and August 14, 2004.
People who were born before February 15, 1977, and whose births were registered between February 15, 1977, and August 14, 2004, were issued a citizenship certificate asproof of Canadian citizenship.
Between 1947 and 1977, when the birth of a child (including border babies) born outside Canada to a Canadian parent was registered, citizenship officials issued a Registration of Birth Abroad (RBA) certificate as proof of Canadian citizenship.’
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/facts/born_outside.asp
My mother must have not registered me within those 2 years, because my siblings and I entered Canada with my mother in 1968 as landed immigrants. I too moved to Canada at 12 in 1968!
*@WhatamI, from what I have seen people have been getting backdated CLN’s if the became a citizen of another country. For someone like you who was Canadian at birth (based on your registration of birth abroad) my hunch is they will ask you to renounce. Did they give you a reason back in the early 70’s why you were no longer a citizen.
One odd thing, in the 1954 to 1966 time period the normal requirement for registering a birth abroad was it had to be within two years of the date of birth. If this was done in 1966 after the normal time period had expired, the registration would have required a Ministerial approval. Was this looked upon by the US as a naturalization and not a normal registration?