[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB3RBxnn98g]
Emilio Largo: Stop it you fools! He’s got you shooting at each other – James Bond Thunderball
A long time ago, in the midst of another heated debates, that had it origins in the doctrine of political correctness, I suggested that:
What unite us is far greater than what divides us.
I think that might we worth remembering. Although we may not always agree, we are united in in opposition to:
– citizenship-based taxation;
– certain unfair elements of the Internal Revenue Code (for example PFICs);
– Mr. FBAR; and
– FATCA
and what these things collectively represent.
Furthermore, we are united in our opposition to the U.S. government. Now, some of us are busy “shooting at each other“. About what? Some people don’t like the nature of some of the posts, some of the rhetoric, etc. And somehow or other, that becomes a reason to leave. I have been watching the comment thread on the “I’m a moderate post” with the expectation that sooner or later somebody will articulate exactly what they find objectionable (the closest we have come is the Hitler video) and why. Those opposing specific posts and specific language never articulate:
1. What exactly they find objectionable.
2. Why they find it objectionable.
3. Why in the context of the broader issues, their finding specific posts or language objectionable, matters in the scheme of things.
Now, we are at the point where Petros (I assuming and hope he is not serious) is offering to step down as moderator. This is ridiculous. Leaving aside his other competencies, he appears to be willing preserve an environment of free speech and the free expression of ideas. The price we pay for freedom and innovation is that there will be ideas expressed and words used that some of us will find offensive. Once again, I am having trouble seeing how all of this matters.
A couple of days I offered a specific post to congratulate the Isaac Brock Society for reaching the 1000 post mark. I believe that the Isaac Brock Society (with the help of others) has created a critical mass of logic, reason, writing, support and awareness to eventually play a role in making a difference. But making a difference requires continued vigilance and support from contributors, commentators and readers. If you believe in the basic cause which is largely educational, then the worst thing that you can do is pack up your bags and leave. What then was the point? Worse, why pack up your bags without answering the three questions above?
On a personal level, there have been a number of times that I have been angered and offended by various comments on this board. But, so what? In life you will NEVER learn from people who agree with you. An enhancement of perspective is possible (I believe only if you are willing to allow your views to be tested by those who don’t agree with you and are willing to explain their position).
One final thought. I have thought about the comparison between the U.S. government and various rogue nations throughout history. It is worth remembering that the conditions for the final atrocities evolved slowly. The U.S. government is invading the sovereignty of other nations in various ways. This needs to be recognized by both governments and its citizens. Those citizens and governments can choose to respond as they see fit.
Thanks Renounce for your vote of confidence. That means something. I serve here at the whim our committee. If the committee were to say that we should move to a more moderate moderator, then I would willingly step down. One must remember, however, that the committee includes such outspoken people as may have been booted off the Expat Forum, and so far we’ve had no cause to expel anyone here.
Initially, despite the protestation of the faux commenter “Annoyed”, we’ve always had a political agenda. We are not partisan, i.e., we do not support one party or another, but we are deeply political and we have always been so. This site is not just about taxes but it was started to do battle–not just to speak in soft tones so that no one may be offended, but to gather all those like-minded people that think that the United States has gone off its rocker. You see, the person who thinks that we’ve gone off onto a tangent, depends on his livelihood on the perpetuation of these stupid rules: he is a former litigator for our common enemy the IRS, continues to draw a retirement pension from them, and now makes money bringing victims to the IRS as a federal tax defense attorney. Why should we allow that person to set the parameters of our free speech? This is the same reason why I could never receive a fair trial in Washington DC.
Mopsick’s agenda is not to prevent false analogies with the Nazis, but more likely political. He is after all a trial lawyer and a former Federal employee. Both trial lawyers and federal employees are huge democrat constituents and they have a huge stake in the success of the Obama administration, which is our persecutor. Thus, often we have made very strong comments against the US government, he has tried to set the limitations on the conversation. But I want to remind folks, that Mr. Mopsick is a guest here. He is neither the founder of the blog nor its boss. He is not the one who defines the limits of conversation. He has been very careful to defend the IRS and its personnel and we have suffered thanks to the current administration. For me, this administration has become my enemy against which I fight (with every political, non-extremist tool at my disposition).
I think we need to be careful about what commenters say in the future. If they are too friendly with the Obama administration, one has to ask whether they are astroturfers. I say this because I know that there are Obama operatives out there (I have seen Obama trolls at my own blog), and they will do anything to sway or influence opinion, even pretend to be an expat affected by these issues.
*@ renouncecitizenship: I agree completely. I’ve never posted because I never had anything to say. I’m posting now because I am finding this latest exchange of posts unbelievable. Petros managed to create the most helpful, informative and essential website at a time when the combo of scare tactics by the IRS and the multitude of OVDI accountants turned all our lives into a living hell.
And now what? Some skirmish over exaggerated notions of political correctness is going to sabotage this amazing endeavor? Surely we’ve all noticed that this is possibly the most civilized, well behaved, intelligent website of it’s kind.
It would truly be a huge self defeating shame if intolerance of self expression and occasional satire were to be curbed by poring over every word and finding offense where very obviously NONE was intended.
For me, Petros has been an inspiration with his incredible courage and the success of this website has everything to do with that courage. Not to mention the huge amount of time, effort and expense he put in to create basically the only refuge in this insane IRS jihad. Yes, jihad. (Find me a more apt word and I’ll gladly use it)).
I absolutely do not want Petros to step down. There are countless of us who have never written a word, but are eternally grateful for everything he’s done and all the help we’ve received from this site. Let’s all keep the original purpose of this site in mind, and realize that it’s the only one of it’s kind. If this fails, we really have nowhere else to make our voices heard as a group, nor to offer and receive the kind of support that this site provides..
*The key thing we all need to remember is that this is still a very long game. We need to find ways to stick together over the next year(or maybe years) and not divide up among ourselves.
@ Petros
Petros, you have been very transparent with your reasons for beginning this website and I have great respect for your courage and willingness to continue to remain at the helm with the support of the committee. However, I am curious as to your statement regarding Steven Mopsick’s agenda. I do acknowledge, that I am curious as to how he would respond if the question were posed directly to him. I prefer to think that he has a heart for the plight of the US person impacted by the current US tax reporting policies.
Some months back, Mr. Mopsick was, in my viewpoint, very generous with his responses to the questions addressed to him and I appreciated his contributions based on his “insider” knowledge which helped to quell some of my immediate fears. To date, I have utilized his input to help direct my decision to, for a brief time, take a “wait and see” stance on issues that may have a far reaching impact on my loved ones. This “wait and see” stance, and, of course, my dilemma is “when to act”, did pull me back from making blind, fear base recommendations to those closest to my heart.
As a US citizen residing in Canada for more years than I had lived in the US, I became “compliant” many years ago with the knowledge that I had at the time. This, of course, is an ever unfolding story as I continue to learn more about the complexities of US tax and citizenship laws, complexities that my specialized US tax accountant did not understand.
So, whatever Mr. Mopsick’s agenda, his input and response to my queries has proved beneficial thus far. I am grateful and thankful. I will withhold my assumptions as to what is his “agenda” until he chooses to personally speak to that issue.
However, Petros, your transparency regarding why you are here is appreciated by myself because you leave no doubt in my mind as to yours. For now, I continue to be an occasional poster and frequent lurker. My purpose for being here at this time is simple; to work towards making wise decisions that will have significant impact on the well being of my loved ones and to resist the urge to act out of fear.
@Feuerbrand
Completely agreed… very well said
@ Tim
I second your thoughts!
As the great philosopher Red Green would say, “We’re all in this together”
[Since this topic seems to have jumped over to a new thread, double posting, for the first time ever]
Latching onto any label — moderate, liberal, conservative, extremist,
fundamental, radical — enshrouds the wearer in one-dimensional
negativity. The essence of that presumed identity then becomes a tag
that says: I don’t want to think any further; I don’t like the people
who are not like me; I want to make everybody else be like me. If only I
myself could have the power over others that the United States has over
me! How cosy it feels to wrap self up in definitive logo and to buy
into the company of clones. The real punk knows that effective branding
requires hot metal searing deep into flesh, the physical correlate of
vacant commodity fetish naming. Tattoo is only skin deep, hair is today
and gone is tomorrow, metal is only alien removable appendage. Dialectic
makes it inevitable that insane situations engender weird displays and
severe discomforts. Diogenes knew that daylight needed a lamp. Ezekiel
fooled around in the streets of Jerusalem with a brick and skillet. The
most irrational gesture is to preset personal response limit at upperlip
rigidity and serfish civility and then to hike off in a snit when
things get messy — or far worse, to hang around at the fringe and mouth
whiny threats of departure. Petros, you de bro!
*First time commenter, months long reader.
I am very grateful for all of the information available on isaac brock and especially for the inputs of petros. It would be a shame if he were to step down or that people were to leave over minor differences.
Going through compliance is so stressful and scary and there are many people that I don’t feel comfortable discussing this with in real life, or who don’t want to hear about it. I am indebted to you all. I do hope that all the effort so many Brockers have put in, are putting in, will put in will result in better future states for U.S. expats abroad.
Would it be so difficult to stop ridiculing those who support Obama as president, whatever their other viewpoints might be? Would it be so hard to engage Mr, Mopsick on the merits of his arguments, instead of attacking his character and motives?
@therapist, I have also agreed that Mr. Mopsick has been helpful and now as a counsel for ACA, he is a sort of ally. That said, freedom of speech is higher priority for Isaac Brock than maintaining a relationship with him. Again I stress, that nothing yet at this blog has advocated extremism or is extreme. We are advocating peaceful solutions because this war has not come to one of taking up arms. My purpose for criticizing Mr. Mopsick is that he has tried to create boundaries for our discussion. But he doesn’t set the agenda here. The agenda is set here by the limits and ideals of free speech and Canadian (not US) law.
@Bankei– I haven’t ridiculed anyone. Mr. Mopsick hasn’t presented any arguments himself. The argument that has been presented is that the Hitler spoof video was disgusting, and off limits to the discussion–going off on tangents. That is not an argument. This is what Renounce has said at the top of this thread:
*We have told you precisely what we find objectionable and why. But of course it doesn’t agree with you so you carry on regardless. For example, you said you would forswear comparisons to nazis and then came up with your Fatca star which of course makes the ridiculous comparison between expats and Jews in nazi Germany.
It matters because ,among other things, you are driving people away. Fine.
Well, my ordering everyone to stop the comparison is going to go where? I don’t tell people what they can say here. I can’t even seem to stop myself from saying it. That makes me pretty damn cheeky.
I said what the parameters of the discussion are: free speech and Canadian law. Now as far as I know there is no law against making analogies to Nazi Germany, or Seinfeld would not be able to shown in Canada with his “Soup Nazi”.
There is one step that has to take place in any kind of ethnic cleansing. You must identify those who belong to the group. The search for Americans for the purposes of wealth redistribution is similar to previous instances of identifying the “others”; such as the Tutsis in Rwanda. Is that safer? Am I allowed to mention that? Or is that also off limits? Then you must cause the majority of the people to hate this group. They’ve taken your jobs. They’ve stolen your money. They don’t pay their fair share. This is exactly what is going on. American expats are first vilified then identified for special treatment. Pick your persecution. Take for example, Christians in the Roman Empire. First you had to find out who they were, then you made sure they were Christians, and then you threw them to the lions. Is that OK? Any Christians out there offended by that analogy? Christian eat human flesh, practice magic, commit incest, and generally despise all human beings. They are DESPICABLE. Therefore it is ok to kill them, crucify them, burn them, condemn them to mines, throw them to the lions, confiscate their possessions.
Let’s try this one: French Revolution, aristocrats, royals, and priest: all to the guillotine, until thousands were dead. Perhaps somebody knows how they made sure that they didn’t kill some poor revolutionary by accident.
This is just a little heads up and I am NOT directing this information to or referring to anyone in particular here. There is always a possibility in any forum that it will be infiltrated in order to ultimately shut it down or at least create enough tension to divide and conquer the flow of the discourse, IF it has been deemed a threat to the “state” or a particular “interest group”. If this site has become a target and I am not an expert so I cannot tell whether or not it has, then it would only make me think that what is being researched, advocated and discussed at IBS has hit a nerve somewhere and that is actually a very good thing. It would mean that IBS has become influential enough to become worrisome to those whom we would want to worry and to me that would indicate the site is indeed on the right track. And I for one, think Petras is the perfect choice for moderator. If anyone more “moderate” was moderating I think IBS would lose its spark and many valuable contributors would retreat because they are not tippy toeing types. I feel that freedom of expression is essential and I wouldn’t want to see any changes made here in that regard. Maybe I’m more radical than I thought I was but that’s just a label and I abhor labels in that sense. I’m just an ordinary person who is trying to navigate through a very tough era and grateful when I find a site like this which has been so helpful but it could get less helpful if it becomes a flat surface and does not have multiple thought provoking facets, even if one of those facets should happen to have a shady motive (NOT saying there is such a facet here, only that it is always a possibility). Just my toonies worth.
*@ Petros, I stand with you in support of freedom of speech, both as a Canadian PR, for now US citizen, and soon to be, also Canadian. And, I will continue to support the strong stance that you take on the issue of censorship. Before coming here, I also frequented the Expat forum in my attempt to glean from the wisdom of others. Your willingness to establish a website that addressed the urgent need for tracking the complexities of this developing story as well as advocating for the right to free speech/expression has been to the benefit of many. I appreciate, that, as the founder of this blog, you set the ground rule early on that censorship would not be practiced, thus, giving all who come here a sense of safety that all comments are considered of equal value, even ones that take issue with statements made by others.
@ Steven Mopsick, if you have an agenda that comes along with your willingness to bring your 30 years IRS vet experience to these dialogues, I would be curious as to what that is if you care to share that with us. Even so, thank you for your efforts to bring a voice of reason to those in the US who may be able to effect some change.
I must be really slow. but WTF.. why this crisis? Not everything is going to be perfect 100% of the time. That’s just life. Anyone here over of the age of 30 should understand this. This must be the crisis hitting around 1 million hits since the very beginning. I value everything and everyone here, and hope nothing changes. This ste is sort of like Facebook, but it doesn’t collect your data: it’s just easier to check in every now and again instead if getting irritated with some comments and leaving. IMO, anyone who lives overseas that has any US connection should be here.
Petros, you know it’s not just Obummer (Obama) that is the persecutor. It’s really the non-elected bureaucrats that want to make a name for themselves. But really, it’s the whole machine is against Americans that live overseas. Not that I really care anymore…
QueenofSurrey, I don’t exactly look at the FATCA thing as a similar thing from Nazi Germany. I wasn’t alive at the time, so I have no idea, nor do I really agree with the star-thing, for 2 reasons:
1- I don’t want to show ANYONE that I’m a US person (techincally, I’m still a USP for now);
2- I don’t think that things have gotten to the level that the history books say, so I think tha maybe the comparison is precipitated.
I’m not 100% for it, but I don’t let a few small things taint my opinion about the overall site. If I don’t like something, I just ignore it. If I think someone is overreacting, I say something. Otherwise, I take in all that I can, and I enjoy the interaction.
@Geeez As to “WTF”: It was pissing down rain and I couldn’t sleep, and when I came across this thread, I went “GOOD GRIEF!!” I don’t understand what has happened here, I must have missed something.
@All There are plenty of Hitler “Untergang” bunker parody scenes on YouTube about every subject imaginable, from “My <substitute name of crappy ISP> Internet connection is down again” to “Where is that Pizza I ordered?”. I have seen that film and the rant scene is far from the most shocking. Hitler goes on to kill his own dog, kill himself and his new wife, while the Goebbels woman kills her own kids by poisoning. Personally, in addition to comparing the FATCA/FBAR/Double Taxation mess and its effects with Nuremberg laws, I have also proposed more humourous paradies with the Dilbert office-tyranny scenario, but nobody seems to follow up on my ideas and castings. Is such a comparison also “politically-incorrect”?
The comparison of the effects of “IRS jihad” to 1930s Germany is as valid as comparison with other sequences of historical events where one group or groups of people were oppressed by a tyrannical regime. The point is that tyranny always starts with a set of recognizable steps that disenfranchise and exclude some people, while creating censorship and manipulating everyone’s movements, behavior and thoughts. (If you read some of Naomi Wolf’s books, you’ll find this sort of argument with various historical examples).
The same sorts of things have to happen each time a tyrannous or murderous regime takes hold, whether it was the persecution of Christians in Rome, genocide in Rwanda, the Balkans, or 1930’s Germany, or even the genocide comitted against my “savage” native-American ancestors in the US. The actual manifestations might take different forms, flavors, or be of different degrees, but the result is always the same: tyranny and murder. We must be forever vigilant that history does not repeat itself with new versions of the same old story. If we see such a situation coming, we have to fight against it, through peaceful literary, political and juridical means first, but with arms if need be. We owe that to ourselves and to our ancestors who dirtied their fingers with ink and shed their blood so that modern democracy could be born.
I don’t give a damn about political correctness, free speech is more important. My personal opinion is that political correctness has become a means of censorship. As Petros brought up, we are not here because we all have the same political views. We are here because we all think that the US government has gone nuts and is heading down the wrong path while pulling the wool over homelander eyes.
Here at IBS, our different political persuasions and different backgrounds and feelings on the matters only help to make us stronger and give us more power to analyze what is happening from many different angles. We are more capable and versatile than the US Congress itself, which IMHO is horribly bipolar and incapable of the sort of deontology and resynthesis that we can be capable of here at IBS.
My vote: Petros stays, so does Mopsick and everyone else in their varying capacities of Moderator, Author, Contributer, Commentator, Reader, Lurker. We cannot allow ourselves to be divided and conquered here. We have already come too far. I am certain that our agitations here are having their effect and that our cause will eventually prevail. What we discuss here is Reason and for Reason to prevail it must be spread so we must not exclude anyone that is willing to engage in or read open dialogue about the issues. Neither must anyone pack up and run away just because she or he gets pissed off about something somebody says. We are all adults here.
*renounceuscitizenship, very nice post!
@QueenofSurreyQOS Surrey The FATCA star may not be in my taste, but the comparison is clear. Before the holocaust, groups of people (many Jews, but not only http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) were thrown out of jobs, businesses, and property. Once they were excluded, shunned, and ghettoized they could later be exterminated more easily. The same thing is happening in Europe right now to USPs of even modest or middle-class means (even if they hold the passport of their country of residence). This is clearly against our constitutions in Europe, but it is happening anyway.
We are in the midst of a coup d’etat, perpetrated by US bureaucratic imperialism. The process is started, and no telling how far it will go if it does not stop.
@Jefferson D. Tomas
My vote is for there to be no vote on the matter. Forget about it and leave it as is. The topic and issue of concern is the US government, with which there is much to talk about.
Ok, you guys can write all you want about ethnic cleansing, but it just ends up negating the reality and gravitas of whatever you are trying to say.
Ethnic cleansing involves mass rape, murder, and unimaginable, horrific violence.
I get the part about seperating out USP’s, but the analogy stops there. Throwing around the ethnic cleansing phrase makes you look absurd.
@Bankei Sorry, you missed the point. Tyranny starts with exclusion, expropriation and isolation. Then worse stuff starts later. If you wait until the genocide happens, then it is
too late. You see, tyranny starts with gradual steps and when it really starts
getting bad, we are already trapped. The preservation of democracy requires
constant vigilance. Complacency=slow suicide= not an option.
USPs are being increasingly excluded from normal commerce in Switzerland and elsewhere in Europe on the basis of their ethnic origin or the fact that they lived in the US. I know this for a fact, and the situation has been building for several years now.
Have you read our comments here on this site about the NDAA? Judge Katherine B. Forrest read the writing on the wall and stood up to block its enforcement. http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/18/local/la-me-gs-national-defense-authorization-ruling-20120518 We should all applaud her, she has got guts and conviction, but we all have to do our part as well.
You should really order some books from Naomi Wolf and read what she has to say: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment
@Jefferson, what is happening with Fatca may well go as far as expropriation, permanent exile, confiscation of assets and the like. Are you seriously saying that down this road is mass rape, dismemberment, slaughter, burning of villages? I doubt it. So it is you that is missing the point, which is this:
Absurd hyperbole – like all this talk about genocide and ethnic cleansing – just turns this blog into a sideshow. A rant-fest. A Rush Limbaugh style carnival that cannot – and will not – be taken seriously.
Which is really quite unfortunate, because it ultimately sabotages the possibility of this blog swaying events.
@Bankei This is not a rant carnival, it is a question of democracy and the constant threats against it that, when left unrecognized, will destroy it. When people are expropriated and excluded and targeted by propaganda they are all the more susceptible to mass extermination and other physical abuse of whatever kind whether it be through a vernichtungslager or just letting the resultant expropriated indigents die on the streets, denied any assistance or social services.
Failing to recognize the warning signs, you are doomed to allow history to repeat itself.
@ Bankei: Rush Limbaugh, funny that you should mention him, has a very large audience, as much as 25,000,000 per week. We have done nothing which can be called superb “absurd” or “extreme”. Ethnic cleansing also includes forced expulsion or intimidation to force a group out of a region. In this sense, ethnic cleansing does not always necessitate murder or horrific violence, though instances of it my precipitate it. It is a term that differs from genocide, which refers only to the mass murder of a racial, political or cultural group.
Now if US persons in Switzerland cannot function except as persona non grata, then the banks will have ethnically cleansed the US nationality, and this is due to the Swiss bank’s reaction to the United States own crackdown on her citizens. Now is that the fault of the US person living in Switzerland or of his or her Swiss spouse? No. Does it matter if that person has Swiss nationality? No. Thus, for that person to function as a full citizen, he or she must leave Switzerland and go to a country where US nationality is not a barrier. That sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. Ethnos is a greek word that means “nation”, and hence, if the Swiss banks are cleansing themselves of US nationality, we are indeed dealing with a case of ethnic cleansing. If a person must renounce US citizenship, they must essentially scrub away their taint of being American. This is ethnic cleansing.
I am being neither absurd nor extreme. Thanks for your comment, because you are helping us clarify our terminology and in order to show how the Obama administration and Congress have implemented such policies (FATCA, extra-territorial taxation) which invite countries to implement ethnic cleansing against Americans abroad.