There has been some controversy lately on the Isaac Brock Society with some people posting and making comments that some others find just go too far. I’ve struggled with this myself, as I personally don’t agree with some of the parallels drawn, some of the wording used, and I am frankly uncomfortable with some of the thoughts expressed.
From what I understand, the Isaac Brock Society was formed as place of support and resources for US persons affected by the United States government, particularly as it pertains to the travails of the US model of citizenship-based taxation. And that certainly seemed to be the focus when I first found this site back in February. In the words of the founder, Petros,“The Isaac Brock Society started as an informal group of Canadians who began meeting in person and through email to discuss their US tax and citizenship problems.”
Scrolling back through all of the posts, past or present, I find they do manage a tie-in to either the plight of US persons abroad, or the issue of citizenship-based taxation. Over the last couple of months, in my opinion, the focus has become fuzzy, with some of the later posts using what I consider pretty specious reasoning in linking back to the original issues.
For several months, after I first found the site, I think I was almost addicted, visiting many, many times every day. Checking for updates was the first thing I did in the morning, and the last thing I did at night. Part of that was likely because I was still in shock and was in vacuum cleaner mode, hoovering up all the information I could find, and part of it was the relief in finding out that I wasn’t alone, and that there was a large group out there that understood, were empathetic and had much more information than I did. I will never forget what this site did for me in the first few months of finding out that the US probably still considers me a US citizen.
I haven’t been quite so engaged the last couple of months.
The shock has worn off and I’ve realized that this is going to be a long haul, with no quick, and certainly no easy, resolution. So, sure, that’s part of it, I no longer feel compelled to haunt the site looking for something that will magically make it go away.
I think the larger reason, though, is that I don’t always like what I read here. Frankly, way back in the early days, I wasn’t comfortable with the term ‘jihad’ being used in the context it’s being used at Isaac Brock. But, I learned to live with it and no longer find it as jarring as I once did, and I realized that I just mentally skip over it.
One of the more controversial issues lately has been the drawing of parallels to the Nazis and, in particular, the video of Hitler, with the subtitles. I do not equate what the US is doing to what the Nazis did. However, I have to guiltily admit I found the subtitled video very funny, and just didn’t read any subtext into it, political, racist or otherwise. Perhaps it wasn’t in the best taste, but then often humour just isn’t. (I love George Carlin, too.)
I’m a moderate, always have been, and suspect I always will be. I just don’t see anything wrong with moderation, with compromise, with tempering one’s words. I think that’s what it takes to live successfully in a society, to live (relatively) peacefully with other humans. And that’s how I speak, and I write, and pretty much how I live my life.
This site was founded because of censorship at another site, a perfect example of something good that can come out of something bad.
I fully support the right of people to express themselves as they see fit, even if I disagree with them, or the way they’re saying it. Sometimes the back and forth arguing over the controversial issues actually makes me think a little bit harder about my position, and my uncomfortableness, and where that might be coming from, and that’s not such a bad thing. A little self-analysis can be positive.
Do these radicalized posts and statements (as I see them) diminish the importance of the Isaac Brock Society to me? I can only be honest and say, yes, a little bit, but not very much.
Most of the people posting and commenting on the site are intelligent, articulate, empathetic, and well meaning. Those that I consider in that light will be the people I continue to read. I have my favourites, as I’m sure everyone does, and just the fact that they continue to post and comment will be enough to draw me back.
So, I will keep visiting the Isaac Brock Society. I may take exception to some of the posts. I may or may not find it worthwhile to comment on them. Depending upon the nature and tone of future posts, I may reduce the number of my visits, and I know I’ll just skip some of the posts, and I’ll skim read through some of the comments.
At the end of the day it’s my choice on whether I read them or whether I let someone’s words bother me. I’ve decided that I will just accept that we are simply not going to all agree with one another, and that the important thing to remember is that, at the end of the day, we all have a common cause, no matter how it’s expressed.
Very well said. I concur.
You described the focus of the blog and how it has changed in the last couple months perfectly. Thank you for describing exactly what I’ve been feeling the last couple months.
I concur also but I’m an old hand at alternative news sites and blogs so I’m used to some very over-the-top language and I’ve learned to move along and just keep extracting whatever is of good value to me. I once got cranky about a blog which was poorly written and then had to give my head a shake and recognize that it did have good content despite the spelling and grammatical errors. This is most definitely not a factor at IBS! Actually everything, so far, at IBS has been of good value to me. I have no idea what I am — passive, moderate or a hot head — maybe a little of all. My only problem is trying to keep up with everything here.
@johnnb, Annoyed, and Em. I was expecting to get blasted, so it’s nice to read something more positive to start with. Thanks :). And Em, maybe that’s part of the problem for me, that this was the first blog I ever joined, and even now, the others that I read I’ve gotten to from this site (Victoria’s, Jefferson’s, etc)
*Yes, yes!
I have found this site very helpful, too, both for morale and for details of the process of documenting relinquishment or renouncing. I discount the extremist rhetoric of some contributors to the site. I attribute a lot of it to the stress that has been put on all of us by the U.S.
I’m still waiting for my coveted CLN. I hope it’s suitable for framing!
@outragedcanadian, thank you for articulating my thoughts, exactly. I too am addicted to the site. We come from diverse backgrounds and our level of frustration is expressed in many ways. I’m all for skimming over the offensive words. I’m not in favor of censorship.
@All,
Thanks outraged. I think most coming here to Isaac Brock are able to sort through and disregard anything that offends them and take away the vast information that most helps them in their plight. If any want censorship, they might subscribe to the ExpatForum.
*Well said. I much prefer a moderate POV . We have gone off on a tangent. Perhaps we can get back to supporting each other.
As I plow through plethora of perception, here and elsewhere, I sift for nuggets of wit and content. Let the chaff fall where it may. Or give it a kick like a pile of dry leaves.
Get bogged down in trying to make something amorphous and multiple and intractable line up with how you think it should be reified, and you can revert to the unhappy life of a young child whose ill-defined ego undergoes severe daily hurts.
Fixate on a focus lost, a heraclitean stream that has carried away what you think you remember that you used to have, and you won’t even find time to skinnydip in the river.
Brock promises to be a very long haul. Real news is sparse, especially in August. FATCA makes for tedious kabbalah – how does today’s emanation of that oùça configure? Mostly that leaves perspective and insight and Q&A and occasional data trophy. In the meantime, interact with whatever isn’t boring.
Don’t like to play here? There are other sandboxes.
‘reified’, ‘heraclitean’, ‘kaballah’, ’emanation of that ouca’. Very impressive!
@outragedcanadian
I add my thanks to your comments. I would hope that the rhetoric could be toned down a bit and the focus remain solidly on the issues of Citizenship based taxation, relinquishment and renunciation and Fatca.
I’d rather not have to sort through comments among IBS posters arguing with the language used by other posters. Offensive posts should just be annoyed.
I’d also like to see more discussion about what can be done in the country of our residences to convince our own governments and financial institutions to resist Yankee imperialism (oops!).
Perhaps I’m being fatalistic, but I see little hope that the U. S. will change its ways about citizenship based taxation. However, there is hope regarding Fatca because it is so unworkable and involves the co-operation of other countries and their financial institutions.
@outragedcanadian
Thanks for this post, and I am one of the most guilty for calling this the IRS jihad against Expats. LOL That is my own hyperbolic rhetoric, so never thought of it as jarring, but then now that you mention it, I take your point.
We all come from different view points, and different tolerance for language. What is profane to one, might be common vernacular for another, and learning to view these comments from another’s perspective or be sensitive to another’s feelings is always a challenge. Especially in an online world, where we really don’t know each other.
I for one, did not find that video clip based on that old Nazi movie offending, because that has been widely hackneyed on the internet for all kinds of topics, so just chuckled that it got dusted off and used again. Never equated it with any reality, more than just satire. But I guess I can see how someone else might be sensitive to it. I love Jon Stewart and the Daily Show, but I have some very good Conservative friends who just loathe him, so no accounting for tastes, when it comes to satire.
Anyway, nothing else to add to what you have written. Thanks for our contribution.
Thank you for this post. One of the reasons I have almost never commented is that I’m uncomfortable with a lot of the heated political rhetoric, even though I continue to check in, as I’ve gained a lot of information for which I’m very grateful. I think part of the problem is not just that this blog attracts an unusually wide political spectrum (there aren’t many other sites that would unite Canadian nationalists and U.S. anti-tax activists) but also that the problem we’re confronting is very wide-reaching and is bringing together people with very different interests. My issue is Canadian sovereignty — I have never considered myself American, as I believed I could not hold both citizenships as an adult, and as far as I was concerned, there wasn’t a choice to make: I’m Canadian. It’s no skin off my nose if the U.S. thinks I’m a traitor or if they make it difficult for me to cross the border, since I want nothing from the U.S. and will not be bothered if I never go there again. I will, however, fight any move by Canadian banks to restrict my rights because of a foreign country’s laws, so I’ve been following Calgary 411 and Blaze (among others) with great interest and admiration. I recognize, however, that those who feel they’re being driven into exile by their country are going to feel passionately angry about that. My response is, generally, is to remain silent and ignore posts that I find unpleasant, while I learn from others. The problem with that, of course, is that I don’t express, as I should, my admiration for the many posters who have contributed time and energy to fighting a real injustice — even when their fight is not directly connected to my particular concerns. (Just Me, obviously, is front and centre here.)
@ Outraged, Thanks for this post and for expressing your opinion so well.
May I just say that to my knowledge there has actually never been any extremist or radicalized statements or even rhetoric on this blog. There has been at times personal attacks which I myself have not been entirely uncomfortable. Extreme or radical language would require that we advocate violence or revolution. I have always been hopeful that this US war against its expats in the world and this infringement against the tax sovereignty of Canada and other nations, would find a peaceful solution. But I’ve given up hope that that solution would be found in the United States, so I advocate stirring up the folks in our countries of residence. I don’t see how this can be done with soft, non-offensive language.
Again, I want to mention that I’ve seen no one here ever advocate violence or revolution. We must be careful not to allow people to define us as extremist or to curtail our ability to discern the truth just because they are not comfortable with our rhetoric. I don’t think that Just Me has to apologize for calling the actions of the IRS a “Tax Jihad”. It aptly describes what is taking place. Do I need to remind everyone that so many of us have not slept well since this war on expats began?
Steven Mopsick, I consider a friend of this website; but he has been a relentless critique of our free speech policy. He criticized a post about Bobby Fischer, a video posted by the Iraq protester Kenneth O’Keefe, and finally Joe Smith’s video on spoofing Hitler. Joe Smith admitted that he himself is Jewish and had relatives killed by Hitler–so he reminds us that the first thing that has to take place is identify your target, which is exactly what is happening with FATCA–the banks have to identify the Americans. This morning a reader sent a questionaire that a Swiss bank had distributed with the comment: It seems appropriate that it is in German. A reader this morning comment that when she was in the bank they asked her several questions as to whether she was an American (I am translating the german): she said, “There’s a question missing.” The teller said, “Sorry?” “Yeah, you forgot to ask if I am Jewish” (ob ich Jude bin). Why are people making this comparison with the treatment of Jews under the Nazis?
Do you remember from history that the Jews weren’t just rounded up in a day and sent to concentration camps? No, the Nazis first identified them and marginalized them by making them wear yellow stars. So there is something eerily reminiscent of this need to identify persons of United States origin for special treatment by banks. No one has been killed yet, to our knowledge. But the identification and marginalization, the first step, is well under way. In my opinion, the comparison to the Nazis and other such cases of identification for the purpose of marginalization is the not least bit unfair.
What I find so objectionable on the part of Mopsick is that he really wants to insulate the IRS and the United States government from these comparisons–he himself has been compromised in any case by his many years working for the IRS. His attempt at censorship is scary, in my view, because while he has been a great advocate in some of his recent publications (thanks, Steven), he wants us to avoid making comparisons which will really tell the true story of how US expats are being treated as a result of very bad tax policies in the United States. This is sad. I am sorry that certain comparisons that make people uncomfortable. But I know the person who made the Hitler video: he is a real person and a solid member of the community here. But some of the people who are the most vociferous in their complaints about where the Isaac Brock Society has gone, I cannot vouch for. We could easily become the victim of Astroturfing, if we are not vigilant.
I guess what I’m saying is that we should save our outrage not for the people who make apt comparisons but for the US government which has given us just cause to make these comparisons.
@All, thanks for taking the time to take this seriously and comment.
And Petros, yes, I completely totally 100% agree that we should be saving our outrage for those that truly deserve it, the US government. I think we need to be vigilent about many things, and that includes being too conservative, as well as too out there.
@Just Me, to be clear, I never found jihad offensive, and I don’t find it jarring anymore, yeah I did at first, but, as I say, I tend to try to not use polarizing language, so maybe I’m a little too sensitive – but then, that’s ‘just me’. 🙂
@Usxcanada – what a vocabulary! I’m in awe. I LIKE words, and I had to look up many of yours!
My heartfelt thanks to all who post and comment here – whether I agree with you or not, I appreciate that we’re in it together and it’s going to take ALL of us if we’re going to have any hope of effecting any change.
*Em,
That sure fits me. I grew up bouncing back and forth between two nations, so I suck with human languages and prefer computer languages, not journalism. I’m not writing to win rewards, but to rather learn about, inform and discuss issues. Some of the things that I’ve written may be poorly written, sound a bit unusual, controversial, hard to believe or understand or even be exaggerated, but it’s all based on reality and I’m not happy with the fact that I occasionally change names and places for privacy concerns.
So, I’m always welcome to criticism of what I write and I try to be quick in correcting errors mentioned.
@ swisspinoy
I hope you didn’t miss the next part … “This is most definitely not a factor at IBS!” The level of discourse here is quite high and I love that there is also a bit of fun to break up the tension of the primary subject … US tax tyranny. You are a valuable contributor here and there is no problem with your communication skills whatsoever. I often find things whizzing over my head but I like it that way because it makes me raise my sights higher. 🙂
A little program for swisspinoy. Guaranteed not to compute on any machine known to computer science. But perhaps this would concatenate on one of the IRS legacy contraptions?
if condition happenstance
match {extraterritorial*}
goto “nonresident status”
elseif [alien & nogreencard] :: exit
#execute
filestatus fbar = on
filestatus 1116 = on
filestatus 2555 = on
filestatus 8938 = on
loop #execute eachyear +1 // set eachyear 0 @ 2008
whenever nofork ~~ return homeland {else die}
do 0 extra %formfiling | citizenclass > 2
!!end
@ usxcanada
I don’t speak computer but I actually understood that, I think. On the other hand, I had to look up concatenate (arranged into chained list). 🙂 Swisspinoy will appreciate that I’m sure.
The basic question of any organization-
What are the objectives of the organization? (both for current and future members)
Do the participants want the same objective?
Are the actions meeting the objectives?
Do actions detract from the objective?
*usxcanada, yep, that’s the language that I understand and you left out the most important part, the error handling:
try
loop #execute eachyear +1 // set eachyear 0 @ 2008
whenever nofork ~~ return homeland {else die}
do 0 extra %formfiling | citizenclass > 2
!!end
catch
do relinquishCitizenship
end try
“Moderate”. It kinda smacks of “Fairness”.
What is Moderate? Is supporting a government that has drone bases around the world and is murdering children and families in various far away lands “moderate”? Is supporting a government where virtually every elected official ignores their oath to protect and follow the constitution “moderate”? Is supporting a government that throws people in jail for refusing to pay the “voluntary” income tax “moderate”?
9/11 is the ultimate “moderate” litmus test, but the Kennedy assassinations and the fake birth certificate are good ones too. Some people refuse to question the propaganda and the misinformation, they really, really want to believe the government. These people consider themselves “moderates”.
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The only thing I have ever objected to was being labelled a racist, which is completely absurd; I live in a country where almost everybody has a little bit of everything mixed up race-wise. Skin colour really isn’t an issue here and that’s how I like it (much different than the US).
But it’s being labelled, or someone speaking on my behalf when I don’t have a voice in the matter– that’s what I REALLY don’t care for. I guess I became more sensitive to this when the US Government started making decisions that affect my viability overseas when I sure as heck didn’t ask them to.
9/11 is the ultimate “moderate” litmus test, but the Kennedy
assassinations and the fake birth certificate are good ones too. Some
people refuse to question the propaganda and the misinformation, they
really, really want to believe the government. These people consider
themselves “moderates”.
There are many people who think or have thought about these issues. I saw some statistics somewhre that showed how many people left the US around the same time I did (2005-2006) because they were just so disgusted with things. I was also in this same boat. My decision to leave the US had absolutely nothing to do with taxes, and all about getting tired of hearing the same thing repeated every few seconds.
Having said that, you’ll drive yourself crazy thinking about the unanswered questions or American propoganda. I think it’s better to get out there. See all of the beautiful things that exist outside of America. Be free… be happy you don’t live there anymore. At least for me, the sooner I get that place out of my life, the better.