Another article about Swiss banks getting rid of clients (dual-nationals included). Interesting that Raiffeisen already announced this at the beginning of the year (following the acquisition of Wegelin). Many Raiffeisen clients are also “societaires” as the bank is a cooperative institution (similar to a credit union) and I wonder how the bank can exclude people who are not only clients, but shareholders.
http://www.lematin.ch/economie/argentfinances/raiffeisen-separe-clients-americains/story/10424823
I already wrote a response to the article, please everyone do so. Unfortunately there is a limit of 400 characters and you need to sign up somehow (with Facebook for example).
What astounds me is that no one seems to have yet sued or filed criminal charges for discrimination (at least that we have heard).
Banque Coop is also mentioned in this article for closing accounts as well. Oddly enough, their motto is “FAIR BANKING”.
A few years ago, Raiffeisen said that it would continue to offer services to Americans in limited circumstances. Also, the BCV (Banque Cantonale Vaudoise) got rid of clients resident in the US, but did not exclude keeping clients living in Switzerland:
http://archives.24heures.ch/actu/economie/bcv-lache-clients-etablis-sol-americain-2010-09-10
This is only the beginning. More foreign banks will implement Yankee Go Home policies with the implementation of FARTCA.
Can’t let those EXPATS wander too far from the plantation.
Switzerland has a Federal Commission on Racism http://www.ekr.admin.ch/aktuell/index.html?lang=fr. Those of us in CH should write to them.
Stories like this illustrate the rationale behind my renunciation–I didn’t do it to save a few dollars in taxes, but to attempt to have a normal life overseas. Way back since the UBS scandal began in 2007, the menacing direction the IRS was taking became crystal clear, as well as its utter indifference to expatriates who were only trying to make a living, and whose only crime in the eyes of the IRS was living overseas.
The IRS really is going to make life a living hell for us; it’s not even 2013 and many banks here in Switzerland are already closing our accounts (despite us being residents!).
To anyone who thinks the IRS will soon wake up and backpedal on all this nonsense, or who believe all this is just a bad dream that will go away, I can only say, stop deluding yourself. Your life and your family mean nothing to them and they will pursue their agenda even if it means destroying what you’ve built. For a good example of the sheer callousness of how the IRS views us, just take a look at my notes on the FATCA meeting in Zurich last month in June, and especially what Dick Harvey had to say. Dick is not only a law professor at Villanova, but served as a special advisor to the IRS commissioner for many years. He no doubt speaks perfectly for the worldview of the top brass of the IRS.
@Wellington The problem now is that renunciation in Switzerland cannot possibly be accomplished before 2013, what with the long waits for appointments. Also, the requirement to be tax compliant (even if you didn’t know about us extraterritorial tax) means renunciation could be asking for more trouble.
Like you, I don’t believe the IRS will turn around their policy. It will continue its callous attitude in general, even if it might gradually back down through the various announcements of relaxed procedures for coming into compliance.
I believe that the best defense for those who won’t or cannot renounce is to argue on the basis of discrimination and civil rights standards in their countries of residence.
Countries around the world are placating the IRS at the expense of their citizens, and their own financial institutions, leaving them to deal with, as best they can, the fallout. What is the recourse for a bank if their own government doesn’t stand up for them against a foreign country, but to just divest themselves of whatever it is that is causing the problem. Don’t get me wrong, I am most certainly not supporting the banks/institutions in closing US person accounts, but what other recourse do they have? They’re certainly not going to spend the money to fight the IRS when their own government won’t back them up.
People have been saying here, ‘don’t worry, it won’t come to that in Canada’, but I actually think it will. I think the banks will, with eyes wide open, starting refusing US person accounts, closing US person accounts, causing citizens to initiate the lawsuits and by doing so, throwing it back at the governments, and into the media. I hope I’m wrong, but I’m afraid that what’s happening in other countries is a taste of what’s to come in Canada, and everywhere else.
But where are the lawsuits? I haven’t seen anything yet. So far I have stayed under the radar in my personal affairs, and I am not going to reveal myself just to provoke a closure to have an excuse to file a lawsuit, but there are already many people who have been affected. Where are the lawsuits?
We’re not in 2013 yet and the FATCA fireworks are only beginning to get underway. Don’t worry, a lawsuit or two is only a matter of time.
I agree with Wellington, they’re going to happen. Right now, I’m living under the radar, and with FATCA not yet in force, I haven’t been asked anything that I could take exception to by my banks. A year from now, who knows? I’m not a ringleader, I’m not an activist, however, I may have no recourse but to file a lawsuit if I want to continue living my normal life in Canada. Of course, I also have no money, so that makes it all the more difficult. However, I’m hoping that if this starts happening here, for real, then maybe there is a lawyer or or law firm also negatively affected who would be willing to step up to the plate and lead the charge, and take on a bunch of clients for lesser fees.
I would have thought with the closures happening already in Switzerland, there would already be lawsuits. It may be that many people who are resident in Switzerland are threatening the banks with legal action (especially in the case of dual citizens) and the banks are simply treating such recalcitrants as Swiss. Obviously we can’t get any reliable statistics because people are trying to stay under the radar.
This is why I encourage people who have been exposed (such as Amy Webster) to go all the way: refuse to close accounts, report the banks for criminal discrimination, and sue.
@outragedcanadian I don’t know if you have, or how, class action lawsuits work in Canada. I suppose that there is a legal aid society (in Switzerland, chamber of lawyers) that holds free consultations, that might be a place to start if you don’t have much money.
Somebody is going to sue Swiss banks again over money deposited before WW II. http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/israelis-to-sue-swiss-banks-for-refusing-to-return-money-deposited-during-holocaust-1.426775
Ironic that they are going to the US for help, seeing that US FATCA legislation is causing people to be treated like they were in the 30s in Germany. I don’t know if all of you remember the first round of such lawsuits, which caused a lot of damage to Swiss bank secrecy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Jewish_Congress_lawsuit_against_Swiss_banks
I wonder if the plantiffs win this lawsuit how the IRS will deal with the FBAR and FATCA issues? The plantiff might win the money back and end up owing 300% penalties??!
@Jefferson, I actually think that there are many Canadians on this site who would band together to create the lawsuit, and I’m pretty sure that some are already getting prepared for this (it sounds to me like Blaze, for example, is loaded and ready to go). We have provincial legal aid, which will provide free service for those who qualify, but I doubt they’d have the expertise for something like this, but I don’t really know. Believe me, if it comes down to it, I will be screaming like a madwoman trying to get some help from every resource I can possibly find in Canada!
*Several Canadian Brockers have consulted with some of the best and I mean the best lawyers in Canada. All have been advised to keep their powder dry until there are more explicit signs of FATCA implementation.
The challenge in Switzerland as I understand is that the Swiss National Bank and the Swiss Finanical Markets Supervisory Authority(FINMA) are the two big entities pushing for FATCA in Switzerland. The challenge for Swiss Brockers is to get the management of those two entities fired. I know the guy who runs the SNB Thomas Jordan is a real piece of work. FINMA and SNB claim as a mandate to maintain the safety and soundness of the global financial system and to NOT go along with FATCA would create a 2008 style financial crisis which they are mandated to prevent.
I’d still like to hear what happened with Amy Webster (who appearantly was tax compliant) if she managed to work out her issues without having to compromise on convenience or pay extra fees to move her accounts. I told her she should make a discrimination complaint and sue, I don’t know what she has done so far. What really irked me is that even her non-US husband seemed to be affected. Where will it stop? Swiss people who have utterly no connection to the US should be worried to as the effects seem to be creeping upon people who would have had no idea they would be in danger of such discrimination.
@Tim They are mandated to protect the interests and rights of the people (Art 2 CFS) but this also means the individual rights of citizens, not just the economy as a whole.
*Here is an article talking about Thomas Jordan and his political enemies(whom I understand to be the right wing and Blocher)
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/next-head-snb-%E2%80%93-thomas-j-jordan
@Tim, and that’s the real saving grace in all of this. No matter what happens, no one has to go it alone! I am grateful for the people here (smarter and more experienced than I am) who are at the forefront of this and have the expertise, and the resolve, to figure out the solutions and then go full out, guns blazing.
*I suspect the ilk of Mr. Jordan of the SNB don’t see it that way. That is why the challenge is to get him fired something alot of people(i.e. Blocher) have wanted for a long time.
I am pissed off with the UDC (Blocher’s party) because some members recently announced that they want to eliminate our health insurance system. Also, they have convinced the government to support eliminating the possibility to make asylum applications at consulates: like having no asylum at all– as much as I dislike the people who are abusing the asylum system and selling drugs on the streets of Geneva and Lausanne while their applications are being considered, and reconsidered, and reconsidered–asylum should still be available for the cases it was always intended to address.
But I cannot understand how the UDC could not be more activist in decrying the menaces against Swiss sovereignty that full FATCA application would entail.
@outragecanadian and @all
Blaze and I and somerfugl did have a telephone consultation with one of Canada’s most well known Charter lawyers. Tim suggested the lawyer to Blaze. We were informed that there was no case until either the Bank or the Government acted against the charter of rights. I do believe there are so many of us (Canadians) on this site, that when/if the day comes, we could easily have a class-action suit.
Like you, I believe the day will come. I think FATCA is inevitable. I wish I did not feel that way but one thing I learned from my late husband, a well-respected businessman, who specialized in finance, is that the ‘bottom-line’ rules. No bank in Canada is going to give up the right to do business in the U.S. Also, we must remember that yes, we are all tax payers in Canada but the banks are also tax payers in Canada.
It has been suggested to all of us to switch our accounts to Credit Unions. For certain types of accounts, that might work. But as was mentioned on another thread this past week, the companies that do the trading for the investment accounts of Credit Unions ie QTrade and Credential Securities, they also will have to sign on to FATCA to do business with the Americans.
What is deal with 2013? What exactly am I to expect? Sorry, but I’m rather new to this all and am just learning as it goes along.
@Jefferson D. Tomas, I agree with you on Blocher. We should be hearing a lot of noise from his party right now about FBAR and FATCA, yet, all we hear is silence. That’s strange.
*To be very clear, it is not just a matter of the IRS getting tough with US persons resident in Switzerland. It is the law that is tough and mandates that the IRS enforce it. Things are likely to get worse before they get better – if they ever do. The only solution is for the US to abolish citizenship-based taxation and adopt the same residence-based territitorial taxation of every civilized country on the face of the earth.
But I don’t see any signs that is about to happen. Even though tens of thousands of persons with US citizenship renounce it, I doublt if even this will move Congress to even bat an eyelash. Overseas voters do not decided whether or not individual legislators win or lose elections and that is the criteria on which they decide legislative priorities.
Roger: Even though tens of thousands of persons with US citizenship renounce it, I doubt if even this will move Congress to even bat an eyelash.
I think so too. All of those tens of thousands of ex-citizens would be long term resident abroad and dual citizen. Not only do their votes not swing elections, but they will have been paying minimal or no US tax as well, either through “neglect” or because of FEIE and foreign tax credits. Renouncing US citizenship makes an individual’s life easier, but has minimal effect on the US (except perhaps a mildly embarrassing quarterly statistic).
The US might even prefer that these people renounce. No more pointless tax returns and FBARs to process, less need to improve services for overseas voters, and so on. Taxpaying citizens are an asset. Non-taxpaying ones, even those that receive no government benefits, are a drain. Renouncing may actually be win-win for both the individual and the US!
@Wellington
Speaking of Dick Harvey, I am still trying to get a copy of the video of that debate with Jackie… Have you heard if it is available?
Also, there was a paper put out that I got off Linkedin about FATCA causing a move to an new International Tax Order, or GATCA as we have called it.
I posted about it over on the ‘Ask your FATCA questions.’ You might be interested in reading it, Tim’s comments which follow, and my response to the paper.
*Here are the slides from Dick Harvey’s Presentation:
http://www.cfasociety.org/switzerland/Lists/Events%20Calendar/Attachments/294/J.%20Richard%20Harvey,%20Jr.%20Powerpoint%20Slides.pdf
Here is another presentation from E&Y
http://www.cfasociety.org/switzerland/Lists/Events%20Calendar/Attachments/294/H-J%20Jaeger%20120626%20CFA%20Seminar%20%5BJaeger%5D%2018.6.12.pdf
The problem with the one is in the final slides I can’t make out Canada differently from the US. I will try to though come up with the actual statistics US vs Canada he is referring too.