After waiting for 3 long years, a story about FATCA was finally heard on some NPR stations around the Nation. This was created by PRI (Public Radio International). They have a daily radio show which they do in conjunction with the BBC, and it comes out of WGBH in Boston. It is appropriately called, The World. You can listen to the story here: What FATCA Did to American Bank Customers in Switzerland Coming on the heels of the CBC interview on Canada Day, it is good these stories are finally being heard by a wider audience.
More good media news
Thanks to ACA member, Dorothy, who brought Expats Radio to ACA’s attention, ACA now have relationship with them. The first ACA interview is NOW on their website. This will be the first of many and they will be working with them to help ACA reach a wider audience. You can listen to an interview with MaryLouise Serrato here.
Expats Radio informs ACA they have over 250,0000 visitors each month, plus they have a catalogue sharing agreement with NPR radio. This means ACA will be available to be heard on NPR and hopefully reach a deeper audience in the US.
Guys,
I am off-thread here, but I don’t think I have posting rights and I am not sure how to send to someone who does.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/03/us/03iht-expats03.html
This tells us that it was a big mistake to alienate us from voting rights and that the Pentagon have reversed themselves… too damn late. Voter registration closed last week.
Best regards
*What the US is really offering EU is a bailout from China in Chinese currency.
@jefferson…
I just posted under a new ID as Just_Me_Also. I removed the http// on my bity links before entering in case that was the problem. Now, it appears to be posted and showing to me right now in Chrome browser, but that is what it looked like last time, so will come back in an hour and see if it is still showing up.
@Tim… Regarding your question to Don about EU countries and why they seem to be so eager or willing to go along. I do wonder if Dan Mitchell isn’t on to something about his thesis about the OECD and the desire to remove Tax Competition between Countries. By getting full transparency on where everyone keeps their money regardless of citizenship or residency, FATCA advances that agenda. Could that be it… ??
More Good Media News… (Will update post for this too)
Thanks to ACA member, Dorothy, who brought Expats Radio to ACA’s attention, ACA now have relationship with them. The first ACA interview is NOW on their website. This will be the first of many and they will be working with them to help ACA reach a wider audience. You can listen to it at: http://www.expatsradio.com/programmes/us-citizens-tax-problems-bob-zanotti-and-marylouise-serrato
Expats Radio informs ACA they have over 250,0000 visitors each month, plus they have a catalogue sharing agreement with NPR radio. This means ACA will be available to be heard on NPR and hopefully reach a deeper audience in the US.
@Just Me
You are on to “something” I would make note of the fact there has been a lot of recent conflict between Canada and Europe on tax and financial issues. Just a couple years there was a big fight between the EU and Canada on infamous “Global Bank Tax”. While there were many players in the Global Bank Tax fight it was basically Flaherty trashing a big policy initiative of France, the UK, and Germany. Here was a blog post from that time period I was commentating a lot on.
http://worthwhile.typepad.com/worthwhile_canadian_initi/2010/04/canada-and-the-bank-tax.html
More recently Flaherty got in another tif with the Europeans.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/dont-pass-the-plate-flaherty-tells-europe/article4244144/
So yes I do think there is a desire in European from some type of Global Tax Organization and increasingly Canada is becoming the most vocal critic of that desire.
*With regard to the ACA interview – Mary Louise Serrato sounds cautiously optimistic that the US will consider a territorial based system at some point. I realize that’s what her organization is working for and working hard at, but I really wonder if that’s a realistic view.
As has been pointed out many times on this blog, one needs to look at what the US has done historically and in what direction things are trending. To me, things are trending in the opposite direction: more regulations, rules, forms, and fines. And as things become increasingly complicated, it also becomes easier to make mistakes and thus get tripped up even though one is trying to be compliant. And of course, increased rules, regulations, and forms will also make it more costly to stay in compliance from a financial perspective but also more costly in the form of increased stress.
I think is it absolutely CRAZY that during the over 30 years of living in Canada I’ve NEVER once wondered or worried about Canada Revenue Agency, whereas in the last few years, especially this last year, I’ve been consumed with worry over the IRS even though I have no economic ties to the US at all. It’s like something out of a futuristic thriller novel . . .
I am really glad to see this story surface on NPR and am grateful for the work ACA does. I’m just not sure if their (ACA’s) objectives will ever have a chance of succeeding.
@Don…
Yup, it is the 4th, and I am heading out to the annual picnic with friends in Booneville, California There will be one IRS tax auditor there who I am looking forward to a long discussion!! Might as well get some more attention on me, and Petros, I won’t mention your name. LOL
I just posted the reading of the Declaration of Independence over at the Petros Police State thread, 🙂 just to help remind us what inspiration we can still take from these words at the same time we are dismayed about where we see American heading.
Here it is, if you didn’t see it there.
http://www.npr.org/2012/07/04/156191910/stated-the-declaration-of-independence
@Tim..
I don’t know if I am on to something for not, but I certainly think this is more than just the piddly amount of tax revenue they said it would bring in over 10 years, when it was first launched in 2010. And I ponder why we are really doing this. This just seems plausible to me, but then again, I am not connected to anyone or have any special inside knowledge. I can imagine there is an open agenda to end tax arbitrage by some in the intellectual elites, and the US has the horse power, declining though it maybe, to kick start this effort.
That is how I am coming to see FATCA, DATCA, GATCA!
Of course, the systemic issues and unintended consequences for Expats are probably seen by those behind this (evidence Dick Harvey’s debate with Jackie) as just the necessary collateral damage to accomplish what they think is the greater good. If the EU countries were not in such financial disarray right now, this might not get the traction. However, as Canadian Naomi Klein has pointed out in Shock Doctrine, you use events to accomplish goals unattainable in normal circumstances. Now, I am admittedly stretching the analogy, but the DOJ successful prosecution of UBS, was just the opening that was needed! FATCA was already written and ready to go, just waiting for the appropriate outrage moment on tax evasion to be able to foist this on the world. Now with the EU and US deficit issues, we have a perfect storm to press ahead on. Mission accomplished! 🙂
and I could be totally wrong!
@Innocente This is why we have to fight tooth and nail against banks that close accounts. We don’t want to be backed into the corner of PostFinance and then find that PostFinance throws us out too. There was a news article linked several weeks ago at IBS that said that PostFinance was going to maintain basic banking services for Swiss residents and Swiss abroad (and Americans outside of Switzerland under limited circumstances). I agree about the auto insurance analogy, but I don’t accept that banks could charge us horrendous rates for keeping an account. In strict legal terms, there is no increased risk for the bank, if the bank accepts the dominance of Swiss law and ignores FATCA, at least for bone fide residents. There was also a recent press release on admin.ch saying that the federal government was negotiating with the US to lighten the FATCA effects on bone fide residents, the final arrangement was supposed to be completed before end of summer, but again there seems to be a bit of secrecy around the matter.
While continuing to fight the bank(s) that throw us out, we should also look for other alternatives to PostFinance. There are still a few cantonal banks and caisse d’epargne that do not have sufficient dealings with the US for a US-person account to pose a problem for them. In my dealings with such banks, I mention the FATCA issue, mention that I have lived in the US, decline to answer any question about other nationalities, show them my Swiss passport, and warn the bank officer that if any information is disclosed to the US or if my account is closed or mucked about with due to FATCA, I will hold the bank and THEM (the bank officer) personally responsible. Citation of RS291 Art 23 and 261bis CPS are, of course, de rigueur.
If I were you I would put the bank that threw you out on notice to reinstate your account, give them 48 hours, then go to the police and the prosecutor and denounce the bank for violation of 261bis CPS (and if you are indeed also Swiss RS291 Art 23) and throw any constitutional arguments in that you feel like (US Const [Article 1 Section 2 and the absence of a census of persons abroad is one of my favorites] and Swiss Federal Constitution [see http://www.admin.ch especially the first 40-odd articles]). If nothing moves within a week or so, demand that the bank pay you a horrendous sum of money, and issue a PRESS RELEASE to all of the Swiss Media (SF1, TSR, Tages Anzeiger, NZZ, Le Temps, TDG, Le Matin) plus NPR and whoever else you can think of. At some point we may have to picket these banks with placards “RACIST BANK” and flyers to hand out. No permit required as far as I can tell if the number of persons participating is small.
As for PostFinance changing their charter (or seeking to) would you have any article or documentation about this? It may be that they want to make it easier to refuse nonresidents who do not have special circumstances such as insurance policies, family or property in Switzerland.
Also, it may be possible to sign a statement that you are not American (which would not actually be an illegal act if you rely upon the protections of the Swiss Constitution, RS291 Art 23 and the legitimate defense clause of the Swiss Penal Code). If somebody has a figurative gun to your head and is going to violate your rights unless you lie, you are allowed to lie with impunity. Same argument goes for lies and white lies to banks if they ask you orally or in writing about other nationalities. Again, this only helps if you are Swiss and are not planning to visit the US.
There may also be an argument under Art 271 CPS (Illegal Acts for a Foreign State). The banks are acting at the behest of a foreign state in treasonous defiance of Swiss constitutional and legal protections of Swiss citizens and residents.
The trend that we are seeing is similar to the Nuremberg laws of the mid-30’s. Even non-US persons with family ties (such as marriage to US Persons) are getting shut out of banks in Switzerland (see the Amy Webster story).
Didn’t the international community say “never again” after the Second World War? If we don’t fight now at every juncture, we will find ourselves Kristalnacht’ed in a bad way. That would be the effective end of Swiss democracy as we know it and grounds for a major political upheaval, or even some sort of revolution (although I wouldn’t change the system much as it is on paper, we just need authorities and a Federal Council that defend our constitutional framework and our Swiss sovereignty—to hell with Uncle Sam’s greedy and prying fingers). In Switzerland, the People are Sovereign, and we need to make every Swiss citizen aware of the breaches of sovereignty that their government is allowing on their watch. If they don’t stand up for us now, maybe someday the man with the ugly stick will come for them too.
VIVE LA SUISSE, LIBRE ET INDEPENDANTE! VIVE LA DEMOCRATIE ! (to the tune of the Cantique Suisse)
AUX ARMES CITOYENS ! FORMEZ VOS BATAILLONS ! (Marseillaise)
@JustMe
Is Boonevile, CA down in 30 Year IRS Vet’s old territory? It looks like it might be. Or is it part of the San Francisco region?
A new article on expatriation on bullionvault.com.
“Don’t Wanna Be an American. Period. – 4 July 2012”
http://goldnews.bullionvault.com/renouncing-us-citizenship-070420124
From the article:
“Americans who bail on their country may not think things are going to get any worse any time soon, but they clearly do not believe things are going to get better. So far, the pitter-patter of footsteps heading for the exits is barely a murmur…but the murmur is getting louder.”
Another story on expatriation from Forbes:
“Are You Considering Relinquishing Your US Citizenship Like FB’s Eduardo Saverin?”
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robclarfeld/2012/07/02/are-you-considering-relinquishing-your-us-citizenship-like-fbs-eduardo-saverin/
Another article from bullionvault.com:
“Don’t Wanna Be an American. Period. – 4 July 2012”
http://goldnews.bullionvault.com/renouncing-us-citizenship-070420124
@zuludogm,
I don’t think I have ever been aware of your situation in quite the detail you posted on the NPR site. I am horrified and truly sorry to hear of the drastic measures you and your family are being forced to take. I hope there is some way something else happens to prevent you from having to do this. How heartless the US has become.
@Jackson..
12 Hours have passed, and I see my newest comment is still showing. I have checked in Chrome, IE, and Firefox. Now there are 4 of 6 showing, so I bet my older posts and yours are off in moderation heaven or something. Create a new ID, and try again. It might stick.
@tim
Boonville is in Anderson Valley, west of Ukiah and north of Santa Rosa. 30 Year Vet is down in Sacramento east of Oakland. So, sort of the same area, as it is all California!
@Just Me, how did the discussion with the IRS tax auditor go?
@Christophe…
Actually, as I found out, they work for CI, not the audit division. We had an interesting discussion around the voluntary disclosure program. They were very familiar with it, and knew its intentions were toward the Whales, not minnows. As one said, this arose out of the UBS prosecution. Also, one of them brought up the “bait and switch” actions of 2009 OVDP, using those actual words, and thought it was terrible! Not a lot of respect for Shulman, as in none, and frankly quite cynical about upper management.
The conversation drew some others in who were trying to get their head around what the subject was all about, so I spent more time explaining the nature of offshore tax and reporting requirements and the vagaries of the compliance effort, then I got to get into the meat of these CI guys feelings about their enforcement or investigation efforts. Their particular efforts are domestic business related, not offshore.
Bottom-line, there seemed to be a lot of sympathy for minnows and how the offshore program was being misused due to the nature of how the IRS does things. They knew the subject pretty well, for those who were not actually directly involved. The topic did animate them. Like usual, when you talk to normal folks operating within the “belly of the beast” they clearly see all the problems with their own administration, (rules and regs that guide them) and that for political reasons their bosses do not, or choose not to see or correct. At the higher levels, their boss like Shulman are seen as purely political actors, and don’t understand their own employees struggles to deal with the incredible complexity which is our tax law.
and I know ConferderateH, would disagree, but they are good guys just trying to do the job as they understand it, and make a living. It is the nature of the beast.
*
In my additional attempts to keep the story interest alive on NPR or PRI web sites, I just posted a comment on this story at Market Place Radio…
Small bankers fear Dodd-Frank rules
My objective was to inform the journalist that small banks also fear the impacts of DATCA and that this is not getting coverage, so I am drawing the links for them.
In this environment of low to no comment stories, it is my feeling that there is a better opportunity to create new or additional narratives. It is my hope that the journalist or story producer will read what is put up, and if it is reasoned and not too hyperbolic it might sway future stories or narratives. Maybe I am just deluding myself, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. I do try to take the opportunities that are there.
I apologized if this has been already posted:
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/07/03/an-unnecessary-overreaching-of-u-s-tax-law-into-canada/
@Tomas D. Jefferson:
I am responding to your lengthy posting of 4 July, for which I would like to thank you.
1) Swiss Criminal Code section 261bis “Discrimination”: I met with a compliance attorney of the bank which is in the process of tossing me out and, during the conversation, asked him how a bank refusing to offer services to an American was different from a restaurant refusing to serve an American based on ethnic origin, which is clearly illegal under the above cited code. Being thorough, he then spent 30 seconds looking at this criminal code section and then dodged the bullet. He said that the Swiss Banking Assn., the government, etc. had decided that this is how the banks in the country are to proceed, identifying US Persons and then requiring their exit or setting up special accounts for them, depending on the bank.
2) Retirement account: I asked him what would happen to my “pillar III” retirement account if the bank ended the relationship. He stated that it could be transferred but he saw no issue in retaining it because it is in a foundation separate from the bank. Since he also stated that this was the first time he had encountered this question, I wonder if this will become an issue later.
3) Savings account: He stated that unless I instructed the bank on where to transfer my savings account balance that they would send me a check for it at the end of the 3rd quarter. He suggested that I should talk to one of the large banks who might be willing to take me.
4) Safety deposit box: The bank attorney had a complete overview of my banking relationship and the fact that I opened a safety deposit box this spring became a minor subject, surprising me. He said that Swiss banks are now requiring a signed W-9 from US Persons for safety deposit boxes because the IRS would want to know about them too. I presume that the safety deposit box agreement will be cancelled as well. (Disclosure: mine contains my birth certificate, a diploma and an old non-working watch).
5) Changing situation: the bank attorney mentioned that the general banking situation regarding US Persons is fluid and that more changes could be coming. He thought that many regional banks would simply terminate accounts with Americans due to the expense of changing their IT systems.
6) Postfinance charter change: I read about this proposed charter change in a regional newspaper in
February/ March of this year. I searched the newspaper’s web site for
the article but cannot find it – the web site seems to be a subset of
the printed paper. I’ll keep my eyes open for it.
7) Bank with my rental deposit: The bank where I have my rental deposit account called last week to inquire where I was born, which they had not asked several months ago when the account was established. This annoyed me and I asked them what the relevance of it was. They replied that it was for FATCA compliance. I went to the bank to sign another document which listed, among other items: Nationality, Born in US or Not, etc.
8) Next step: I am pushing back at the bank out of principle since I have filed 1040s for my entire 20+ years abroad. In late September I will tell them to transfer my savings account to my current account at another bank. I remain curious what will happen to my safety deposit box and my minor pillar III retirement account, but will not lose sleep about either of them.
*So the bank’s lawyer basically blew you off. Do you have your own lawyer in Switzerland?
@Innocente, this all makes me so angry. It’s outrageous.
@ all Swiss residents, this issue has been brought up with ACA, but I am sure you tried to contact the US embassy in Bern. What was their response? US government officials working there must have the same issues you guys are having.
A search for FACTA on their website does not return anything!
@Innocente…
That is the first I have heard of a W-9 for a safe deposit box. Does anyone know that is an actual FATCA requirement, or just something the Swiss banks are deciding to do on their own?