30 thoughts on “FATCA Comments from Swedish Bankers Association”
All the well reasoned arguments about how high tax countries should be exempted from the FATCA nonsense will fall on deaf ears in the US. The Americans don’t care if you are in a high tax country and paying more than you ever would in the US. They want it for themselves no matter how illogical that is to the rest of the sane world. They don’t care that you receive no benefits from the US government and therefore should pay no taxes to them.
They couch all of their behavior as going after tax evasion when what the US government is really trying to do is engage in tax theft from other countries. It’s an invasion of the world through the banking system.
It’s taking awhile for countries to figure this out but once they all do, they’ll slam the door shut on FATCA.
When they accuse people in high tax countries of evading taxes you know the US government is the real bad guy.
Good find! I wonder if a visit to Sweden is in order to deposit my money there until I receive my CLN…:)
Jon Weston should see this. Our banks are in the same position as Swedish banks. Anybody have a working relationship with Mr. Weston?
@Chester12
To be fair. I haven’t seen the comment letter yet from the Canadian Bankers Association. I might be surprised.
I am a Swedish-American living on Sweden. The letter is right to the point and likely benefits from real issues being faced, because, sadly, the banks are trying to comply. The spouses of two colleagues of mine who work in IT in two major insurance companies here have been pulled off other projects and put on high priority FATCA implementation projects. American consulting companies are making a lot of money from FATCA as I am told that both projects have heavy involvement from the local branches of major American consulting companies.
A friend and I wrote our Finance Minister about FATCA. The response we received about FATCA said exactly what was mentioned in the SBA document; that Sweden was looking to work with other European countries for a solution to FATCA issues.
Now that FATCA awareness exists in Sweden, it is good to see the bankers voicing their opinions. They must be very aware of the difficulties with FATCA as some banks have actually begun to try to implement this ridiculous and arrogant legislation.
Yes, good letter but…… Here is the killer, and here is exactly what the IRS wants. I have to wonder if this wasn’t the intention all along. Force a Global Tax Data exchange… GATCA… and with it the faux reciprocity it implies due to the differences of US citizenship taxation and Sweden’s territorial taxation..
“The long history of tax reporting, an efficient tax administration and a fairly low rate of advanced tax planning and tax avoidance should make Sweden a good partner for extended mutual assistance and exchange of information for tax purposes in the framework of the existing bilateral tax agreement between Sweden and the US.
The SBA therefore welcomes the Joint Statement made by the US, France, Italy, the United Kingdom, Germany and Spain on the 8 February 2012 and urges the US Treasury to follow the same approach for Sweden.
So, in my humble opinion this is where we are headed. The FFIs will be let off the hook, and a GATCA will be created in its place. It is a brave new world.
What I am hearing as how they might have to comply here in Canada and in Sweden is allow anyone to refuse to share their account information and thus become “recalcitrant” account holder. The US won’t like this but they many have no choice. Interestingly, I didn’t figure this out unitl this morning but the EU5 have in the agreement that they can allow “recalcitrant” account holder basically forever, however all US source payment including quite possibly family remittances will be taxed at a 30% if bound to a “recalcitrant.” The IT systems needed to accomplish this are mind boggling.
@JustMe
I believe here in Canada if we sign on to GATCA we can have it thrown out under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms for violation of equality of citizenship. There will be nothing the US or CDN govt can do at that point. I also believe the political consequences of signing onto GATCA in the present circumstances will be devasting.
@JustMe
I know you think I am fighting a losing battle but one of the top constitutional lawyers in Canada agrees with us. The same guy who got gay marriage legalized as a Constitutional right before anywhere else in the world had done so.
We Canadians vacation in Cuba. We can do anything! I’m sure many dual citizens have been to Cuba without realizing that they’re breaking the law in the US and could be prosecuted.
@Tim, it is good to know that there is a skilled Canadian lawyer aware of this and who agrees. It may be that if Canada and some other countries remain steadfast, that it may bolster other who haven’t committed to continue to resist.
Just Me wrote:
So, in my humble opinion this is where we are headed. The FFIs will be let off the hook, and a GATCA will be created in its place. It is a brave new world.
Don’t worry. The human spirit craves freedom and it will be found somewhere, in networks that are outside of the tyrannical grip of the current global financial regime. Where there is a will there is a way. Take for example how many billions of dollars are in the Canadian underground economy to avoid HST. Also, in Greece, internet barter exchanges are cropping up, with a unit of measure, and people bartering any service and good for units of measure within the exchange. The more you try to control people, the more they rebel against your iron grip, and you may even find yourself dead like Nicolae Ceaușescu. Soon people will be abandoning fiat currencies and finding new ways to circumvent the financial and tax system. It will be because the political leaders failed them completely and they have no choice but to do that or die. Do you think the Brave New World looks like Orwell’s 1984? I don’t. It looks like Mad Max.
@JustMe
Unlike certain bankers in Florida I actually don’t have a problem with the US reporting the accounts of Canadian residents with US Accounts and vice versa. If you want to formalize this into something akin to GATCA then I’m all for it. I draw the line though at the Canadian government or banks sharing any info on bonafide tax paying Canadian residents with any foreign government.
@tim- how would the U.S. justify levying a tax on a gift? I thought that gifts were not taxable in the hands of the recepient.
I do like how Sweden highlights the coercive nature of FATCA. I believe that in most English law that coercion/duress is a defense to the enforceability of any action that arises from its presence.
This coercion should in and of itself kill FATCA as it is now formulated. One thing that it also says is how the U.S. views U.S. persons who are non residents which is as criminals and this is based solely on their lack of residency. The punishement doesn’t arise from any crime that has been committed but on the possibility that a crime could be committed because he/she is not a resident. However it is illegal to punish someone based upon what it is that you think he/she could do.
@Tim…
I hope you are NOT fighting a losing battle, and I am just being a “realist” or should I say “fatalist” on what is coming. Now, I totally hope you are right and wind this fight, and I am totally wrong. I often am. I just see GATCA in the works, and yes, @Petros, the human spirit will find away around it, but it will make life more difficult for many in the process.
I am probably in agreement with you that resident tax data exchange is tolerable for tax compliant persons, but of course the faux reciprocity with the US wanting Citizen / US person data, and the other countries only wanting resident data will still make it difficult for US citizens trying to survive overseas.
Time will tell what happens, and if you weren’t impacted, and just a passive observer it would be an interesting fight to watch. I am busily sending messages to as many US media sources I can trying to outline what is happening along the comments that were posted in the recent WSJ blog on the Compliance Goldrush. John, Roger, Jackie have made good observations there. May 15 public hearings are coming, and I want to be sure that as many journalist as possible know about it, even if they continue not to report on it.
@recalcitrantexpat, There is a gift tax under US tax law. It is levied on the giver, not on the recipient. I don’t have the text handy, but you can give money and things of monetary value to another person, up to a certain value, free of gift tax, but above that amount there is a tax on the value of the gift. Husbands and wives are not subject to this tax when giving to each other. I seem to recall there are different limitations on gifts to non-resident foreign nationals. But I am writing from memory. There are no limits on what you give to charity, but there are limits on the tax deductctibility of charitable contributions which exceed a certain percentage of your income.
I guess I am being pessimist. But my feeling is that everyone will comply, perhaps after fighting a good fight. The US still is a poweful country. I am not afraid of FATCA because I have nothing to hide. But I believe it is a very arrogant program. In exchange for FATCA the US is offering “reciprocity”, that is, the US banks will reveal accounts of non resident investors in the USA. This is not reciprocity. Reciprocity would be if the USA would reveal the accounts of all alien residents in the USA who have Green Cards. Of course the other countries would not be interested on that because they all have residency based income taxes. But I would love to see how the US Banks would respond to this initiave of senting milions of accounts to practicelly all countries.
@markpinetree- I disagree with the assertion that the U.S. is a powerful country. The U.S. needs foreign captial more now then ever. If the major none U.S. investment centers of the world, England, Singapore, Hong Kong, Hang Seng, Ordanaires, D.A.X., were to organize themselves they would dwarf the N.Y.S.E.
To cave into to the U.S. on that basis is to cave to a myth and to accept U.S. propoganda.
Just how much captial inflow loss could the U.S. absorb before its economy cratered? I don’t believe that it could absorb much. The U.S. is actually extremely vulnerable and now is the time to change things if the world only has the will.
Let´s hope so. But…time will tell.
I agree recalcitrantexpat. This is a war they are going to lose … it’s just a matter of time. The US has accomplished something nobody else could do, they have united the world against themselves.
To be truthfull I feel sorry for us Americans. We are always provoking the anger of the world. I wish this could change, I thought that with President Obama this would change… But here is a good news: FBAR/FATCA Relief Efforts Underway: Tell Your Story Now!
The above link is the Subject of a message I received from: “Joe Green (Canada) – Task Force Chair”
“Joe Green (Canada) – Task Force Chair”
I just answered a questionaire from the Task Force. Things are happening.
@markpinetree- its the mentality of believing that you have to always “win”. If the Americans had taken a more conciliatory approach to the tax evasion problem and asked the other countries of the world for their suggestions on how to tackle this issue, I can assure you that FATCA never would have happened.
America needs to get to the point where it admits that what is good for America is not what is not necessarily what is good for the world. Sometimes America has to let the other side win. There is no dishonour in that happening.
Being a leader means being able to be self effacing and America lacks that capacity.
If America does have the deepest financial markets in the world then America should view itself has being the servant of a financial trust and not the possessor of a bargaining chip that it can exploit for its own ends. There is no surer way to destroy a financial market than if it is seen to be ruled by a politically choatic government. If you can’t trust the government to refrain from manipulation of its captial markets for its own personal gain then that is the Capitalist’s definition of a market that is not deserving of investor trust.
Tying market access to the tax compliance of none resident citizens in such a way as to injure innocent third parties was the worst thing that America could have done for its own financial condition.
All the well reasoned arguments about how high tax countries should be exempted from the FATCA nonsense will fall on deaf ears in the US. The Americans don’t care if you are in a high tax country and paying more than you ever would in the US. They want it for themselves no matter how illogical that is to the rest of the sane world. They don’t care that you receive no benefits from the US government and therefore should pay no taxes to them.
They couch all of their behavior as going after tax evasion when what the US government is really trying to do is engage in tax theft from other countries. It’s an invasion of the world through the banking system.
It’s taking awhile for countries to figure this out but once they all do, they’ll slam the door shut on FATCA.
When they accuse people in high tax countries of evading taxes you know the US government is the real bad guy.
Good find! I wonder if a visit to Sweden is in order to deposit my money there until I receive my CLN…:)
Jon Weston should see this. Our banks are in the same position as Swedish banks. Anybody have a working relationship with Mr. Weston?
@Chester12
To be fair. I haven’t seen the comment letter yet from the Canadian Bankers Association. I might be surprised.
I am a Swedish-American living on Sweden. The letter is right to the point and likely benefits from real issues being faced, because, sadly, the banks are trying to comply. The spouses of two colleagues of mine who work in IT in two major insurance companies here have been pulled off other projects and put on high priority FATCA implementation projects. American consulting companies are making a lot of money from FATCA as I am told that both projects have heavy involvement from the local branches of major American consulting companies.
A friend and I wrote our Finance Minister about FATCA. The response we received about FATCA said exactly what was mentioned in the SBA document; that Sweden was looking to work with other European countries for a solution to FATCA issues.
Now that FATCA awareness exists in Sweden, it is good to see the bankers voicing their opinions. They must be very aware of the difficulties with FATCA as some banks have actually begun to try to implement this ridiculous and arrogant legislation.
Yes, good letter but…… Here is the killer, and here is exactly what the IRS wants. I have to wonder if this wasn’t the intention all along. Force a Global Tax Data exchange… GATCA… and with it the faux reciprocity it implies due to the differences of US citizenship taxation and Sweden’s territorial taxation..
So, in my humble opinion this is where we are headed. The FFIs will be let off the hook, and a GATCA will be created in its place. It is a brave new world.
What I am hearing as how they might have to comply here in Canada and in Sweden is allow anyone to refuse to share their account information and thus become “recalcitrant” account holder. The US won’t like this but they many have no choice. Interestingly, I didn’t figure this out unitl this morning but the EU5 have in the agreement that they can allow “recalcitrant” account holder basically forever, however all US source payment including quite possibly family remittances will be taxed at a 30% if bound to a “recalcitrant.” The IT systems needed to accomplish this are mind boggling.
@JustMe
I believe here in Canada if we sign on to GATCA we can have it thrown out under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms for violation of equality of citizenship. There will be nothing the US or CDN govt can do at that point. I also believe the political consequences of signing onto GATCA in the present circumstances will be devasting.
@JustMe
I know you think I am fighting a losing battle but one of the top constitutional lawyers in Canada agrees with us. The same guy who got gay marriage legalized as a Constitutional right before anywhere else in the world had done so.
We Canadians vacation in Cuba. We can do anything! I’m sure many dual citizens have been to Cuba without realizing that they’re breaking the law in the US and could be prosecuted.
@Tim, it is good to know that there is a skilled Canadian lawyer aware of this and who agrees. It may be that if Canada and some other countries remain steadfast, that it may bolster other who haven’t committed to continue to resist.
Just Me wrote:
Don’t worry. The human spirit craves freedom and it will be found somewhere, in networks that are outside of the tyrannical grip of the current global financial regime. Where there is a will there is a way. Take for example how many billions of dollars are in the Canadian underground economy to avoid HST. Also, in Greece, internet barter exchanges are cropping up, with a unit of measure, and people bartering any service and good for units of measure within the exchange. The more you try to control people, the more they rebel against your iron grip, and you may even find yourself dead like Nicolae Ceaușescu. Soon people will be abandoning fiat currencies and finding new ways to circumvent the financial and tax system. It will be because the political leaders failed them completely and they have no choice but to do that or die. Do you think the Brave New World looks like Orwell’s 1984? I don’t. It looks like Mad Max.
@JustMe
Unlike certain bankers in Florida I actually don’t have a problem with the US reporting the accounts of Canadian residents with US Accounts and vice versa. If you want to formalize this into something akin to GATCA then I’m all for it. I draw the line though at the Canadian government or banks sharing any info on bonafide tax paying Canadian residents with any foreign government.
@tim- how would the U.S. justify levying a tax on a gift? I thought that gifts were not taxable in the hands of the recepient.
I do like how Sweden highlights the coercive nature of FATCA. I believe that in most English law that coercion/duress is a defense to the enforceability of any action that arises from its presence.
This coercion should in and of itself kill FATCA as it is now formulated. One thing that it also says is how the U.S. views U.S. persons who are non residents which is as criminals and this is based solely on their lack of residency. The punishement doesn’t arise from any crime that has been committed but on the possibility that a crime could be committed because he/she is not a resident. However it is illegal to punish someone based upon what it is that you think he/she could do.
@Tim…
I hope you are NOT fighting a losing battle, and I am just being a “realist” or should I say “fatalist” on what is coming. Now, I totally hope you are right and wind this fight, and I am totally wrong. I often am. I just see GATCA in the works, and yes, @Petros, the human spirit will find away around it, but it will make life more difficult for many in the process.
I am probably in agreement with you that resident tax data exchange is tolerable for tax compliant persons, but of course the faux reciprocity with the US wanting Citizen / US person data, and the other countries only wanting resident data will still make it difficult for US citizens trying to survive overseas.
Time will tell what happens, and if you weren’t impacted, and just a passive observer it would be an interesting fight to watch. I am busily sending messages to as many US media sources I can trying to outline what is happening along the comments that were posted in the recent WSJ blog on the Compliance Goldrush. John, Roger, Jackie have made good observations there. May 15 public hearings are coming, and I want to be sure that as many journalist as possible know about it, even if they continue not to report on it.
@recalcitrantexpat, There is a gift tax under US tax law. It is levied on the giver, not on the recipient. I don’t have the text handy, but you can give money and things of monetary value to another person, up to a certain value, free of gift tax, but above that amount there is a tax on the value of the gift. Husbands and wives are not subject to this tax when giving to each other. I seem to recall there are different limitations on gifts to non-resident foreign nationals. But I am writing from memory. There are no limits on what you give to charity, but there are limits on the tax deductctibility of charitable contributions which exceed a certain percentage of your income.
I guess I am being pessimist. But my feeling is that everyone will comply, perhaps after fighting a good fight. The US still is a poweful country. I am not afraid of FATCA because I have nothing to hide. But I believe it is a very arrogant program. In exchange for FATCA the US is offering “reciprocity”, that is, the US banks will reveal accounts of non resident investors in the USA. This is not reciprocity. Reciprocity would be if the USA would reveal the accounts of all alien residents in the USA who have Green Cards. Of course the other countries would not be interested on that because they all have residency based income taxes. But I would love to see how the US Banks would respond to this initiave of senting milions of accounts to practicelly all countries.
@markpinetree- I disagree with the assertion that the U.S. is a powerful country. The U.S. needs foreign captial more now then ever. If the major none U.S. investment centers of the world, England, Singapore, Hong Kong, Hang Seng, Ordanaires, D.A.X., were to organize themselves they would dwarf the N.Y.S.E.
To cave into to the U.S. on that basis is to cave to a myth and to accept U.S. propoganda.
Just how much captial inflow loss could the U.S. absorb before its economy cratered? I don’t believe that it could absorb much. The U.S. is actually extremely vulnerable and now is the time to change things if the world only has the will.
Let´s hope so. But…time will tell.
I agree recalcitrantexpat. This is a war they are going to lose … it’s just a matter of time. The US has accomplished something nobody else could do, they have united the world against themselves.
To be truthfull I feel sorry for us Americans. We are always provoking the anger of the world. I wish this could change, I thought that with President Obama this would change… But here is a good news: FBAR/FATCA Relief Efforts Underway: Tell Your Story Now!
The above link is the Subject of a message I received from: “Joe Green (Canada) – Task Force Chair”
“Joe Green (Canada) – Task Force Chair”
I just answered a questionaire from the Task Force. Things are happening.
@markpinetree- its the mentality of believing that you have to always “win”. If the Americans had taken a more conciliatory approach to the tax evasion problem and asked the other countries of the world for their suggestions on how to tackle this issue, I can assure you that FATCA never would have happened.
America needs to get to the point where it admits that what is good for America is not what is not necessarily what is good for the world. Sometimes America has to let the other side win. There is no dishonour in that happening.
Being a leader means being able to be self effacing and America lacks that capacity.
If America does have the deepest financial markets in the world then America should view itself has being the servant of a financial trust and not the possessor of a bargaining chip that it can exploit for its own ends. There is no surer way to destroy a financial market than if it is seen to be ruled by a politically choatic government. If you can’t trust the government to refrain from manipulation of its captial markets for its own personal gain then that is the Capitalist’s definition of a market that is not deserving of investor trust.
Tying market access to the tax compliance of none resident citizens in such a way as to injure innocent third parties was the worst thing that America could have done for its own financial condition.