Hello Isaac? It’s me, Ladyhawk. Is there anyone here who still has US citizenship? Well, anyway, in case anyone is interested in how things are going for people like me who are still trying to make the dual thing work, I thought I’d tell you what happened when I went to the US Consulate in Toronto to renew my US Passport.
I’ve been in Canada since 1969, took out Canadian citizenship in 2003, and have no plans to renounce or relinquish my US citizenship. I got my first US passport in 1986 and renewed it in 1996. I had to go to the US Consulate in Toronto both times because that’s the way it was done then. Not a big deal since I live about an hour’s drive away. Since then it has become possible to renew passports by mail, unless your passport has expired and it has been more than 15 years since you last renewed. That was the case for me, so I had to appear in person to renew.
Things have changed. The US Consulate in Toronto is still in the same building, but the big wide welcoming doors at the front on University Avenue are closed, and entry to the building is now at the back, through a smaller door where security is simpler. You don’t get into the building unless you have an appointment, and most people who go are there to get a travel visa for the US. Since I was there for a passport, I was escorted past the lines, through a security checkpoint similar to airport security, and up the stairs to the upper floors by a relay of security guards who kept each other informed about who was coming and going. It was swift and efficient.
At the first window, an agent checked and collected my documents (appointment letter, expired passport, application for renewal, passport photo, and self-addressed Express Post envelope). Then I was sent to the next window where I paid the fee, and from there I went into the waiting room. It was open and uncrowded, with a TV screen on the wall tuned to the CBC news. The resident security guard politely asked if any of us had any questions he could answer while we waited. Within 15 minutes I was called to another window.
Here the agent asked me some questions confirming the information on my application. He noted the state in which I was born and asked if I had grown up there. I said yes, and he smiled and said he was from the state next door, so we were practically neighbours. I smiled back and we chatted a bit about life in that part of the country. He noted my travel plans for the summer and assured me I would have my new passport within two weeks, in plenty of time for my next trip outside of Canada. He asked in a very friendly way about why I had waited more than five years after my passport expired to renew it, and I confessed that I had been very busy with work and family concerns, and had simply not gotten around to it. He did not ask if I had dual citizenship. He did not ask any questions about taxes. I was back on the street in less than 45 minutes.
Since everything was in order, I should have my new passport within a fortnight. The only doubt I have is to wonder whether my information will be checked against my tax status, although I did file taxes (but not FBARs) for 2010. No one at the consulate said anything about that. If I receive anything from the IRS requesting more tax information before my passport is issued, I will report it here.
All the people I encountered in the embassy, from the security guards on the sidewalk outside to the officials and clerical staff, were uniformly pleasant, friendly, helpful and competent.
I have never had an unpleasant experience at the Toronto consulate including the two appointments for renouncing. It seems so different from what I am hearing about other consulates/embassy in Ottawa.
My understanding is that only those with a $50k tax lien will encounter any issues with their passports.
Similar to Rio. And now the US will open a Consulate in Belo Horizonte to facilitate things.
Does anyone know whether the $50K includes FBAR or FATCA fines or purely taxes owed?
@John: Includes FATCA, doesn’t include FBAR, as far as I can tell. Definitely not just taxes owed. Specifically, Reid’s passport-revocation amendment refers to a “notice of lien … pursuant to section 6323″. (See my old post for the full text). Section 6323 reads:
Section 6321 lists the things that might be a part of that lien:
Keep in mind that there are other kinds of pre-existing fines out there besides FATCA. Any expat living a normal long-term life abroad who has ever been self-employed, bought ETFs, or contributed to some sort of tax-advantages savings scheme, is almost certainly already delinquent on his/her 8858/8865, 8621, or 3520 filings, and would be subject to fines if discovered. Up to now the IRS basically played “don’t ask, don’t tell”, but that’s coming to an end …
@foxyladyhawk: glad to see you’re still around and still hanging on. And that all the negativity about U.S. citizenship from us renunciants and would-be renunciants hasn’t driven you away 🙂
@all, if you haven’t seen it already, see foxyladyhawk’s inspirational post from January: Why I will not renounce
@Eric, thank you for your kind words. Hard as it is to accept the compliance costs of keeping my citizenship, it is sometimes worse to be an outsider in a community of people who see so clearly that their best interests lie in renunciation. Sometimes the grief and rage they feel lead them to assume that anyone who doesn’t see things their way is blind and perhaps stupid. I fully accept and applaud the decision anyone here makes about cutting ties with the US, and I agree with the denunciations of IRS and US government over-reach, but my chosen path is different, at least for now. With Canadian citizenship, I can stay behind these borders and thumb my nose at the stinking mass of 4-digit forms they keep dreaming up without having to jump through any hoops, and that would be my enthusiastic response to the IRS if they were not holding hostage my love for my family that remain there, and if I did not have this very American conviction that no government should ever have the power to tell me where and how I should live
@MarkPInetree, the Rio de Janeiro Consulate is a fine facility. It was at one time the US embassy when Rio de Janeiro was the Capital of Brazil. It was transformed into the Counsulate when a new Embassy was built in Brasilia after the capital was transferred trom Rio to Brasilia.
Opening of additional consulates in Brazil is probably the result of the masive increase in Brazilians visiting the US as tourists. Brazilians must obtain visas to visit the US and that requires a personal interview with a US consular offical. If the US would add Brazil to the list of Visa Waver countries which includes Canada, Japan and the Western European countries, there would undoubtedly be an even greater number of Brazilians visiting the US.
Because Brazil practices reciprocity, it is one of the very few countries that require visas from US citizens visiting that country. But it is much easier for a US citizen to obttain a Brazilian tourist visa than vice-versa. A personal interview is not required.Chile also requires visas from US citizens, but they can be obtained at the airport upoin arrival in Chile, so the process is simpler.
@ ladyhawk You are definitely NOT an outsider. Yours is the more difficulat path, which requires more courage and conviction. To some of us, your path seems too risky, to be sure, but you have put your convictions and principles above expediency. I am so glad you are part of Isaac Brock. But if anyone is going to become a martyr, it won’t be me–despite my public stance. It will be those, like you, who try to remain in compliance. If later, you decide that you can’t do it any more, I will not say I told you so. Rather, I will be sad for what has become of a once great country.
Petros, each of us has a voice, and each of us is being heard, because of what we are doing. The level of renunciations and renouncing is having and will have a cumulative effect. Loss of citizens is being seen politically and will be felt economically. I still think I can make a difference by staying. But I too have my limits and if the price becomes impossible to pay, either financially or morally, I’ll go Galt.
Don’t forget that there are many people who cannot afford to renounce because of the exit tax. A house in Toronto, Vancouver or any European city, plus small retirement savings could easily make one a covered expatriate.
It is likely that most who are not covered will leave before they become covered. The really interesting question is how many people will be wiling to drop a share of their wealth to leave.
Only the accountants and lawyers know for sure …
“The really interesting question is how many people will be wiling to drop a share of their wealth to leave.” That is what sets my teeth on edge, renounceuscitizenship, and the resentment I feel at having to fork out a single penny of my Canadian-earned resources to the US or even to an accountant to protect it from an unjustified claim. Cashing out and living under the radar is looking better all the time….
There are many places to drop encumbering wealth. Not all are evil or bureaucratic. Consider charity. The only thing radar is not likely to find is a mattress. Yet even there “thieves break in and steal.”
A person can get a CLN without going through the exit tax procedure–my CLN is proof positive of that fact. Then FATCA is not a problem because the CLN proves to a Canadian bank that you are not US. The exit procedure, for now, is not yet necessary to stop the banks from ratting you out to the IRS, under FATCA.
@foxyladyhawk and all, I am in the middle of OVDI and cannot renounce, but in a way I am relieved in not having to make that decision right now-I really want to see how the dust settles in the next while, if things move more our way…toward sanity. Anyway, how can things get any worse for me by waiting? It chokes me that we have to pay to do our taxes while we wait, more expense associated with this citizenship. Many are renouncing because of the persecution we suffer at the hands of a government that we are, save as taxpayers, invisible to. People are protesting with their feet- it’s an absolute tragedy that it is with the ultimate price.
@foxyladyhawk, I have never felt you were an outsider and I hope nothing I have said has ever contributed to making you feel that way. It is much harder to be in your position (and mona lisa as well). I will never forget that post on the old forum where even Schubert said he had tears, after reading what you wrote.
@bubblebustin, you certainly can renounce even if you are in the middle of OVDI. There is no connection between IRS and DOS until after your CLN is approved and all that happens is DOS tells them you have renounced/relinquished. You do not notify IRS at the time you renounce, only when you file your last 1040 and the 8854. So you can play with the timing. For instance, I was a bit afraid to imagine “certifying” that all my tax filings/requirements for the 5 yrs prior to renouncing were in order because IRS doesn’t send any confirmation, etc. I renounced early in the year (Jan 20), so I have until 30 June 2013 before filing the last forms. Renouncing stops the clock for future obligation for taxes. If you live in a place with long waits, you might consider getting in line, so to speak. Of course, only offering this if that is what you want to do.
@ bubblebustin Could you please explain why you can’t renounce because you are in the OVDI? Is that one of the conditions of the program. If so, first I’ve heard of it, but it would be very interesting. But if you decide to renounce, why continue to bother with the OVDI?
@nobledreamer, thanks for the valuable information. I can see the importance of timing.
@petros, no it’s not a condition of the program, but it’s really not clear what the final outcome will be for us at this point. I am getting the impression that many here feel that the only route left in achieving liberty and justice as US persons living abroad is to renounce. Do I want to continue to be a citizen of a country that gives me unnecessary hardship and treats me as though I’m a criminal? No! Do I think anything will change soon? Maybe! Will it be for the better or for the worse? Who knows! Can we effect change? Absolutely! We’ve shown that. In the end, renouncing may be the most practical thing for me to do, but I won’t do it just to make a point, as I feel I would be doing right now. I’d like to think that for the sake of my mental health I wouldn’t continue to care so much about any of this if I were to become a former citizen of the USA, but with the possibility that I may still care (as so many of you do) I want to also be prepared for that. Many of you have proven that you can take the person out of America, but you can’t take the American out of the person. So really Petros, I’m really the one who’s in pergatory right now.
@bubblebustin
One cannot turn their national identity “on” and “off” like a water faucet — it is part of the DNA.
The citizenship papers and passport in the pocket are something else — they can be dropped like a bad habit if one chooses to do so.
@Col. Kurtz, yes, but I want my water pressure at the right setting if or when I renounce.
@all, there is always the threat hanging over the head of the Reed Amendment to the 1996 US Immigration law that the person who renounces US citizenship for tax reasons could be blacklisted and never permitted to visit family, relatives or the US for any other reason.
What other reason is there for renouncing US citizenship? None. If it were not for the abusive US tax laws which subject all US citzens living abroad to US taxattion just as if they lived in the US, noboty would ever have any need nor bother to pay the fee to renounce. As far as we know that Amendment has never been enfored, but it is on the books. Just remember FBAR reporting was not enforced either until fairly recentlhy and the penalties being assessed for compliance failure today are truly draconian.
@nobledreamer, thanks for your post. While a few have disagreed with my sentiments, no one has made me feel an outsider for my feelings. I sometimes get the impression there are very few here who still want to retain their US citizenship and so I am happy to be proven wrong. Sometimes the passions here are so overwhelmingly negative that they can spill over into anti-Americanism in general. I do sympathize and am not even criticizing anyone who is anti-American. Feelings cannot be controlled and they are real and genuine responses to what someone perceives as an attack on who they are.
Edited to add: Good reminder, Roger. Part of my complex emotional response to all of this is the deep-rooted fear that the US itself could decide to close the borders to me permanently. That fear was revived with the growing paranoia since 9/11 and the increasingly inaccessible costs of US health care. Still I cannot bring myself to shut that door myself.
@bubblebustin
About one month ago I was speaking to someone who has chosen to live in Canada for 40 years, raise her family here and has not as yet become a Canadian citizen. She is now caught up in the demand to file U.S. tax returns in addition to Canadian returns. She has chosen to do this going forward, and started with 2010 tax year.
I told her that, I too, was born in the U.S, had lived in Canada for fifty years and have been a Canadian citizen for 40 of those years. She asked if I was still an American. I explained to her that part of my Canadian citizenship oath included a ‘renunciatory oath’ of allegiance to my former country. She was absolutely appalled at me; actually covered her heart with her hand as she gasped. (For a moment, I actually thought she might rise to her feet and recite the ‘Pledge of Allegiance’.). She then said “How could you do that”. I, quietly, said that I would respect whatever decision she ultimately made regarding her citizenship and she needed to respect the decision I had made some 40 years ago.
The point of my telling you this story, is that since you have been posting on this site, I have always felt you respected the different choices many of us have either made in the past or are continuing to make now. I also believe most of us here, respect whatever ultimate choice you will make and I have no doubt it will be the best choice for yourself.
@FoxLadyHawk, I hope I haven’t been guilty of making anyone feel like an outsider. I respect everyone’s right to do what is best for them. Yes, I must admit, this has made me somewhat, okay, very, bitter at the US, but I am trying not to let that spill over into anti-Americanism. As I’m sure you know, my position is that I am Canadian only and therein lies my bitterness. I fully respect your right and your feelings in retaining your US citizenship. It’s just not right for me because I gave up US citizenship decades ago and have identified with being Canadian for a very, very long time. I actually do think that you, and the others that feel the way you do, have the harder road to walk and you have my empathy. I have no ties to the US, so it’s pretty simple for me, but I understand it’s not that way for many others. And I respect that.
@Roger, we know how unenforced laws can suddenly rear their ugly heads, but short of stating that one is renouncing because of taxes, how would one know? But I’m glad we’re on the subject of how the Reed Amendment places gags over their citizens mouths in the expatriation process. The US’s dirty secret will remain secret with them firmly in place. I would speculate that they planned it that way, but that would be giving them too much credit.
@FoxLadyHawk, just wanted to add something else… I suspect that if my father was still alive he’d be very torn. On the one hand outraged at what is being done to his wife and children, but on the other hand, he remained a US citizen and did not take out Canadian citizenship. He’d been proud of having been a paratrooper in the US army, and, up until he passed away, he retained very close ties with his family in the US. So, personally, I try to keep in mind that it’s not a black & white issue and there are all shades of grey that need to be considered.