Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

120 thoughts on “Reuter's article by Atossa Abrahamian”

  1. Some who have learned that I’ve relinquished my citizenship have said in comments around the internet: “Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!” I think this response is appropriate, “Don’t let it swing back and hit you in your upturned nose.”

  3. @Petros, they’re happy to see you go, we’re more than happy to have you!
    You know, I was wondering if anything in recent years has had the potential to have a such an adverse effect on Canadian-US relations. I know there was a lot of it over logging, as well, but I think this could be even bigger (if we have our way, anyway). Living in a tourist area that is really hot with US tourists, it will be interesting to see if the already slightly negative attitude many portray around the ‘ugly american’ tourist syndrome worsens. Or becomes even more commonplace.

  5. @outragedcanadian, armchair bitching about the US is a national pastime for Canadians. I learned long ago that what many consider to be politeness in Canadians is actually a passive-aggressiveness that doesn’t need much to manifest as anger, and real threats to sovereignty is reason enough to cause an uproar.

  8. @Bubblebustin, you may be right. Certainly, I hope that the people that are, luckily for them, not personally affected start to get it and start to become as outraged as I am.

  9. @Just Me… #1: Know your enemy – that’s why I check the stories being linked regularly. #2″ 1.9 million people check that site per day – for better or for worse, the folks who will likely make the next government in the U.S. will now be familiar with the issue.

  10. I take your point Dan…

    I often check the Conservative Daily Caller, but nothing there yet…

    Nothing new on Huff Post or Daily Beast. If it shows up there, I will know the Dems are paying attention…

  11. It’s been fun watching this article move around the world these past two days.
    Googling for it led me to discover the other Peter Dunn. Well, this one thinks Petros is the other Peter Dunn. But you get the idea.

    ******
    http://petetheplanner.com/2012/04/17/a-minor-pr-disaster-for-pete-the-planner/

    “Things were going so great…until I was mistaken for another Peter Dunn.

    While I try to help people take responsibility for their financial lives, the other Peter Dunn encourages people to leave the United States in order to avoid paying taxes. This mistake was originally brought to my attention by a Twitter follower, but then I noticed the increased web traffic on my website today. People have been Googling “Peter Dunn don’t pay taxes” all day. Ugh.

    So for the record. I pay taxes. You should pay taxes, and the other Peter Dunn needs to stay out of the news. The world doesn’t need two Peter Dunns.”

    *******

    Pacifica on April 18, 2012 at 1:34 pm said:

    For sure, the world has plenty of room for two Peter Dunns … but I can see it must have been kind of startling for you to discover another one in this tax context!

    However, it seems both you Peter Dunns have more than a name in common. You both pay taxes.

    I know the other Peter from the Isaac Brock Society. I’ve never heard him recommend anyone should leave the United States or do anything else to avoid paying taxes. As stated in the Reuters article, he has always complied with IRS during his many years as a US citizen, and with Revenue Canada as well … it was the complexity of tracking US tax law changes (and they’re complex) and ancillary matters such as FBAR that caused him concern.

    People relinquish their US citizenship for a variety of reasons. I did it decades ago. I just personally did not like the idea of being a citizen of two countries at the same time. Taxes were not an issue at all in those days, it was a much simpler era.

    Taxes are a big issue today, however, for US persons abroad. But it’s not tax avoidance that’s pushing these people to renounce. In fact, with the Tax Treaty, FEIE, and the US having such low tax rates, most US persons living and paying tax abroad end up not owing one red cent to the IRS,

    It’s the unbelievably (and increasingly) complicated paperwork, along with increasing US restrictions on a US-person-abroad’s ability to live like a normal person (US restrictions on retirement savings accounts where you live, banks refusing to do business with US persons because the banks don’t want to run afoul of incredibly complex US tax law, etc.) that is fueling this rise in relinquishment of US citizenship.

    This whole tax thing not being an issue 40 years ago, it played no role at all in my decision to relinquish. But I do respect the personal decision a person today makes if they feel US tax law in 2012 is making them unable to live a normal life outside the US. These people are not trying to play it both ways and/or choosing to play games with the tax code. They are choosing to give up their rights as well as their responsibilities as a US citizen … end of contract … sounds fair to me.

    Please do check out isaacbrocksociety.com We post several articles daily on new developments in US tax law for US persons abroad, FATCA, etc, from contributors around the world with a variety of viewpoints. Your posting or commenting, too, would be most welcome!

    *******

  12. Great find Pacifica: Here’s my comment to the other Peter Dunn:

    Hi Peter Dunn, nice to make your acquaintance. I can vouch for Pacifica; she really does know me. I blog under the alias Petros, in case you want to read some of what I actually encourage people to do.

    Today I spoke with a very good friend and encouraged her not to file for the taxes that she doesn’t owe (since she hasn’t made anything in years being a house wife, mother and student). But as an American in Canada she is quite scared by the threats coming out Obama’s IRS. I told her that as long as she is poor (house rich, cash poor, like so many folks these days in Canada), the US government won’t be interested in her. But many of the rest of us, how are we supposed to keep up with both the IRS and Revenue Canada?

    Did you know that tax freedom day in Canada is in June. So guess what, that means that I pay a lot more taxes than you or any of your readers, as the average American is done paying taxes sometime in April. I just want to be able to enjoy my after tax wealth like any other person in this country and not have to worry that a far away government, that borrows 53 cents on every dollar it spends, wants shake me down for cash.

    So it’s not that I encourage people to leave the US; I actually am helping people to know how to relinquish their citizenship who already live outside the United States. If you live in the United States, then you are subject to the laws of the United States, for better or worse. But why shouldn’t a person living in another country avail themselves of the right to shed the statutory requirements of a regime in another country? No one can serve two tax masters. My former forefathers, the founders of the United States, felt the same way as I do when they declared independence from King George, who had decided that they needed to pay a little stamp tax on tea. They were willing to fight a war over a little taxation without representation. How much more should we, who live outside the United States, desire freedom from the far off and oppressively evil regime of the IRS, if we can get ourselves free without bloodshed just through the relinquishment of our citizenship?

  14. … but too many commenters haven’t taken time to read the article OR can’t comprehend what it says OR make me glad I haven’t lived there since 1969. I want to scream — it’s not about taxes!

    I appreciate those who have put some thought into their comments and do try to understand.

  15. @ calgary
    Yeah, like Petetheplanner: “PetethePlanner tweeted:
    “That one time when a guy named Peter Dunn didn’t pay his taxes and fled the country… A PR disaster in the making”

    So I commented at his blog:
    By the way, I just want to let you know that I don’t owe any taxes to the IRS, and I didn’t flee the country. I left during peaceful times, and to study abroad. Then, I met my wife in Canada. I never made it back to the US.

    By the way, I think that I’m older than you. That would make you the “other” Peter Dunn, Dontcha think?

  16. Pingback: Who is the other Peter Dunn: Survey | The Isaac Brock Society

  18. @all- I was just on the Yahoo site where the article is and it seems that both we and the poltiicians have seriously under estimated the intelligence of a good portion of the U.S. population.

  19. this is one of my favorites”

    Independence, Ohio • 1 day 2 hours ago

    Those that are renunciating are ahead of the curve.

    Maybe we’re in a better place than we realize 😉

  21. Expat4ever
    Finally, the progressives start to take notice…
    Thanks for keeping a look out. Watch http://www.thedailybeast.com/ also…

    The other sites I watch that impact NPR, PBS coverage are http://www.globalpost.com/ and http://www.propublica.org/ and http://www.theworld.org/

    If they started writing about it, it then gets into the Public broadcasting world…

    You might email them, as I will do also.. We should target progressive sites so this isn’t seen as just a conservative or libertarian issue…

  22. @recalcitrantexpat,

    That was my impression as well. Here is a small sample from the first couple of pages of over 6,200 comments. I have to admit, I am pleasantly surprised about how many people commenting actually get it.

    “An “exit” tax! LOL They get you coming and going, dont they!”

    “If I was going to or had to live permanently in another country because of a job, I would renounce it as well. There’s no way i’m paying taxes to a country I don’t live in”

    “If I was living abroad and making a good money, I would strongly consider renouncing my citizenship too. Why should I have to send the IRS a check every year when I’m not even living in the United States? I’m not getting any benefits from the United States like police protection, unemploymen/welfare or anything else, so why should I be forced to pay in.”

    “It’s bad enough we’re chasing our own citizens offshore, now we’re taxing them to the point they don’t even want to be Americans anymore? Way to go Congress. The US is becoming more oppressive than many of our old Cold War enemies.”

    “How often I hear that the world wants to come to America. This is the other side of the coin.”

    “Those that are renunciating are ahead of the curve.”

    “They should change the law to exempt Americans from paying taxes on Income made outside the US.”

    “… America is the ONLY country that taxes it’s citizens for money earned outside the home country. It’s a no-win strongarm tactic to come with the money needed to pay our government and it’s subsidiaries. I’m not going to give up my citizenship but I have thought about it. Americans working overseas have to pay taxes to the country they are working in and taxes to the U.S. It’s unfair but that’s the American way: soak your citizens for everything you can, every way you can. Being an American means less and less each year but you owe more and more.”

    “Just to give you an idea how the American dream was just a dream and how things changed – I know a few people, New Yorkers, who went abroad to live better lives. They now live in… of all places…. Poland! And they have no Polish family roots at all.
    Poland is no paradise, but they say they love the freedom and fact that they work to live, not live to work. Imagine that, huh?”

    “Americans living permanently out of the country should not have to pay taxes. They get no benefit of citizenship.”

    “The U.S. Government keeps pointing the finger at other countries for treating their citizens badly, but the U.S. turns it’s head the other way when the tyrant IRS abuses it’s own citizens.”

    “Well, if the time comes whne your citizenship is more a burden than a joy then I guess I can understand renouncing it.”

    “Only politicians would believe raising taxes or adding red tape would not have consequences. People will take action to protect themselves from predatory government actions when they can.”

    “Money earned in the U.S. should be taxed according to the laws of the country, but if I am in another country, it’s not Uncle Sam’s business what I earn in that country. This is ridiculous on all levels.”

    “Taxing Income earned outside the United States by an individual while they residing outside the United States is rediculous.”

    “So the IRS will go after middle class citizens living overseas and making all their money overseas, but wont go after home-based billionaires who keep their under-reported income in off-shore banks.”

    “Taxation without Representation now where have we heard that before..”

    “Dunn says the taxes he pays in Canada are higher than what he would pay in the United States.” Before you folks jump on the same old bandwagon read what the article is saying. They are tired of the methods IRS uses that is why they gave up US citizenship. The taxes in many cases are higher in other countries.”

    “Before the Roman Empire fell they tried the same thing – taxing their citizens to death to sustain it’s military and entitlement programs. It didn’t work then and it won’t work now.”

    “The bottom 30 percent of the USA spend over 50 percent of the income on energy and food cost alone already and the numbers will keep rising. Targeting us expats will not work because many will say no thanks and renounce. What right do they have to my wealthy partners information and finances? None!”

Leave a comment

Your email address will not be published.

%d bloggers like this: