I received my Certificate of Loss of Nationality via Canada post (regular mail). It came with an accompanying letter from the Toronto Consulate. It asks me to sign and return the letter acknowledging my receipt of the CLN. The envelope also included my cancelled US passport.
I have some notes:
- The Consulate seems to have made an error on the CLN: I lived in the United States from birth to August, 16, 1986, the day I left to study in Vancouver, Canada.
- The CLN states that my date of self-expatriation was 02-28-2011. The accompanying letter says that it was on April 7, 2011, the day I informed the Toronto Consulate. The letter is wrong. Section 349(a) (1) of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 says nothing about the date that I inform the consulate, but concerns itself with potentially expatriating acts such as taking on foreign citizenship with intent to relinquish. This shows the utter confusion of officials the United States government and how the United States puts its former citizens through several stages of neither a citizen nor a non-citizen. I have maintained that I am not a citizen of the United States since February 28, 2011. This CLN only confirms that the State Department also recognizes my expatriating act. The letter indicates that my “file” says I expatriated on April 7, 2011, but the CLN makes it clear that the expatriating act took place on February 28, 2011: “That: he thereby expatriated himself on 02-28-2011 under provisions of Section INA 349 (a) (1) … ” How could it be clearer?
- The stamp on the right hand corner of the CLN shows that the Department of State approved my CLN February 29, 2012 (as also confirmed by the letter). I assume this means that there is a huge backlog of cases, since it took them nearly 11 months to approve my case. Today, is 16 April. So the full process to receive a CLN took one year and nine days from the day I informed them of my expatriating act.
- Now that I am no longer a citizen, I do not understand how the IRS thinks that it can continue to harass me. Yet there is an expatriation for tax purposes according to them, which creates an impediment to a fundamental right. These exit tax laws, in my opinion, could not withstand a court challenge. US expatriation laws contain too many contradictions.
@baird68
My question is ‘should you be required to file any returns if your CLN is going to be dated in 1969 when you ceased to be a US citizen?’. You relinquished when you became a Canadian citizen, then why would the US require you to file anything after that date? Entrapment. Don’t let them get away with it.
How best to deal with the dilemma — pay and then demand a refund when you get your CLN??
No, stand your ground per Petros below.
@ Calgary : Exactly my opinion. I would just send a big: “Never mind!” to the IRS. As a non-US person, living in a foreign jurisdiction, Baird was not required to file. So it’s like, “Please ignore my returns.”
@ tiger
I filed in December, almost a month after I applied for my CLN. I filed from ’06 -’10 and included a letter outlining my situation. I wanted to cover my bases. However, when I took my friend to the consulate a couple months later, the consul said her CLN would be backdated to time she obtained Canadian citizenship (early to mid ’80s). He also commented to the effect: “Why would you file U.S. taxes when you are not a U.S. citizen?” She then decided not to file the forms she just paid to have done! I was sitting on the curb outside the consulate waiting for her and was not part of the conversation. I think the U.S. government agencies are learning as time goes by.
@ Calgary and Petros
I also was thinking:
1. Send the money and suggest they refund it to me once I send them a copy of my CLN – (I really don’t care if they do. They can keep the money and put it towards their debt)
2. Send them copies of application and correspondance to show that the CLN will arrive this year and will be backdated. This will be supportive evidence that the whole thing was a mistake and further tax filings etc. will not be necessary.
oops!
correspondence
Thanks, badger. I just called them and the 800 number doesn’t work from Canada. I haven’t given up and will continue to try and reach them.
If you have a skype account you can call 800 numbers for free.
@Petros, you can also call 800 numbers in the US from an ordinary phone if you dial the operator for assistance. Doing it this way it is not a toll free call. You will be charged the operator-assisted rate, but you can complete the call. You will be charged the total elapsed time, inclunding the time you listen to a recording telling you how imortant your call is and asking you to wait until smebody is available to take your call.
@baird68, If you paid US taxes even though you were not longer a US citizen and were therefore not required to do so, write them and ask for your money to be refunded, with interest. If this does ot result in a refund, contact the Taxpate Advocate. That’s Nina Olsen’s organization. They will make sure your get your money back.
Thanks, Roger. That’s useful information for calling the IRS with an 800 number that just works in the US, not outside Canada or other countries. We should all take note of that. My new useful fact learned today!
While subject is deserving of its own post I am increasing feeling people should start contacting the CRA’s Competent Authority Services office Ottawa especially in post dated relinquishment and lapsed green card cases. Here is a link below:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/cmp/wh-eng.html
What is also significant is Canada’s tax treaty with the US has binding arbitration clause which most other if any US treaties have.
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The other thing I’ll mention about the CRA CAS office in Ottawa(located in the “Canada” building on Water St) is its a free service for tax residents of Canada and they maybe be able to take a stronger stand with the US than most US Tax Lawyers would be willing too.
@everyone
Every evidence I’m aware of is that relinquishment CLNs are always dated to show your expatriation/loss of nationality as having occurred on the day you committed your expatriating act, no matter how long ago it was. We have several instances of this being confirmed by consular officials verbally or (as reported above) by email.
I am aware of at least one opinion by a qualified cross-border tax and immigration lawyer who has said flatly that if you expatriated decades ago there is absolutely no reason for you to file tax returns to the IRS. My opinion would be to say nothing to IRS at all, certainly not before getting your CLN and not after getting it either, unless they send you a letter asking you for something, at which time politely send them a copy of your CLN, the form 4079 you filled out (a copy of which should accompany your CLN when you get it), and a copy of any affidavit or statement you attached to your 4079 during your meeting, and politely inform them you haven’t been a US citizen for X years (see attached documents approved by your own State Department) and do not believe there is any reason why you should file anything with them, since you aren’t and haven’t been a US citizen and (I presume) haven’t had any US-source income or property since you lost your nationality. If they get back to you and don’t accept that, consult a lawyer about your next step(s) or, if you can, just resolve never to cross the US border again, and ignore them.
There is no way the IRS has jurisdiction in Canada and no way, in such a case, that CRA is going to collect anything from you on IRS’ behalf.
Oh and by the way if you do enter arbitration between the IRS and CRA you have sign a non disclosure agreement with CRA and IRS that won’t blab the proceedings to everyone here at IBS.
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/ndst-eng.html
Sorry to avoid any ambiguity, let me clarify that last post (pushed the post button too soon), I omitted in my reference to what a lawyer said, that the conversation was with reference to a slam-dunk relinquishment case based on becoming a Canadian citizen voluntarily and with intent to relinquish USC, more than 30 years ago. If your relinquishment was no more than maybe eight years ago, you aren’t likely going to convince the IRS you don’t need to file. Also, none of what I said above works for a renunciation; your loss of nationality in that case is clearly the date you swore the renunciation oath (last year or this year, presumably), and unfortunately that means you can’t get out from under Form 8854, five years of back filing, etc. if you want to get across the US border again safely. At least that’s my understanding of the situation; as always, get legal advice for your own case, each case has its own wrinkles and you shouldn’t boiler-plate someone else’s case onto your own without checking carefully.
re Tim’s very useful link to the CRA’s Competent Authority Services: I’m wondering whether that might not be a useful avenue to take if down the road any actions are taken against you under FATCA that aren’t consistent with the tax treaty … Just a thought.
@Tim. Careful reading of the non-disclosure form you linked above indicates that you may not publicly disclose the results of the arbitration “other than the determination of such board.” I would interpret this qualification to mean that you can’t “blab” the details or reasonings of the aribration but it seems to me you certainly can “blab” the “determination” i.e. the resolution that was reached (e.g., you didn’t have to file/pay, or you did have to file/pay along the following lines …). Best to get legal advice, or just to ask the CAS (much cheaper, that), what and how much of the “determination” you can divulge publicly, but it sounds to me like the broad outcome certainly could be reported on Brock and elsewhere …
@Calgary411. I at least assume it is still possible to call an 800 number through the operator in a foreign country. I have done this many times, usually from Brazil when I was still taveling there frequently.
You may also be able to dial a US 800 number directly from a country outside of the North American Numbering Plan, which is world zone 1. If anyone reading this wants to try to find out if. it works, do this
1. Dial the international access code in the country you are calling from. In many countries this is 00, but it does vary since some countries use a different prefix.
2. Dial country code “1” which is for North America
3. Dial the 800 number.
I am not sure if this will work, but it might.
sorry to introduce new (but related) subject here but cannot figure out how to start a new one. Anyone know what happens after renunciation and want to travel to USA as a tourist with another passport for first time??? do you need to have your CLN? if so, what happens if you are in the “waiting period” between renunciation at consulate and waiting for CLN? thanks
@alex I didn’t travel to the United States. But I had the copy of original paperwork on which the Toronto Consulate kindly put their seal and signature. I could have used that material to prove that I’d relinquished my citizenship and passport. The consulates have also refused to give copies of the paperwork to others, saying it is the new policy. They are told to just explain that they are in the process of relinquishing their citizenship and have not yet received the CLN. As far as I am concerned, I won’t be doing any expensive vacations in the United States ever again for the rest of my life. But I may risk a single airplane ticket to visit family at some point.
@Petros Actually USA is now one of the cheaper places on planet to vacation:) know of anyone who has returned to USA without having CLN or other paperwork on hand? do ex usa citizens get “grilled” upon first tourist return to USA about renouncing?? any experiences of anyone else?? thanks
@ alex What I care about is not cheap or expensive. What I care about is whether I will be harassed at the border as a tax cheat or other. What I care about is that I am the ring leader here leading a tax protest movement (actually I am none of these things–I’m just trying to get Canadian residents to stand up for their their rights). Besides, cost is also a function of amenities. You can have a cheap or an expensive vacation in the US. If I just want to stay with relatives it’s the cost of airfare.
I know a Canadian who relinquished 35 years ago. He said he’d been hassled once, but not prevented from entering the US. Now things are different than back then. Now we are dealing with a government with 1.5 trillion deficit and a debauched currency. This is a government out to get vengeance upon those who leave to avoid their tax net. Who knows what the future holds?
Truly correct about no one wanting to be harassed.That is precisely the reason for the question . Anyone have any RECENT first or second hand experiences about returning to visit??
@Alex. I’m in that in between stage, having renounced in March but not having received my CLN yet. I’m going to the US in about six weeks and will certainly report back. I’m actually curious and wish I could go sooner.