Estimated world population as of Oct. 31, 2011 7 billion
Estimated population of the U.S. for 2012 313,281,000
Estimated number of U.S. citizens living abroad 6 million
Estimated costs to administer FATCA and chase those 6 million- billions of dollars forever. Net benefit to be derived at the best is most likely zero but is more than likely to be negative because the taxes collected are not likely to ever exceed the cost of FATCA compliance. Of course we will never know because the U.S. very conveniently refuses to establish any criteria for costs calculation.
@topthrillsteve: Some of us are mad because we were told clearly, firmly and directly by US Consulate we were “permanently and irrevocably” terminating our US citizenship by becoming citizens of another country thirty, forty, fifty or even sixty years ago. Now that we are in or near retirement, USA suddenly wants to reclaim us and our money, including our retirement savings, education savings for our children who were born and raised outside of US and disability savings for our disabled children.
For the record, my income has never exceeded the FEIE. I just don’t want to pay taxes or even report to a country where I haven’t lived or been a citizen for more than four decades.
@topthrillsteve: P.S. For most of us, all of our money has been earned, saved, invested and taxed in the countries where we live, work, vote, volunteer, contribute own homes, and raise families. Often the taxes we pay far exceed the rate we would pay if we lived in US. We gladly do this knowing the quality of life in our adopted counties is also far superior to that in US.
It’s funny how topthrillsteve showed up out of nowhere when we were just talking about Ms. Beale. The logic used seems similar to hers … hmmm.
I have been reading around this site now for a couple of hours. US Citizenship is the most sought after citizenship around the World, and from reading it’s obvious that most of you were either born here or received Permanent Residency (Green Card,) and enjoyed the advantage that, it bestows then for whatever reason (financial/emotional/weather) chose to leave, you knew that the IRS claims global jurisdiction over your earnings as a US Citizen/Resident.
All I’m seeing is whining about the IRS closing in on foreign financial accounts. I even read the renouncing US citizenship posts which if you ask me is cutting off your nose to spite your face because unless you’re hiding huge sums of money it seems awfully odd to end your ties to a government that does the most to protect it’s citizen’s globally.
Sorry I didn’t know that would change my display name on here, and I’m not Ms. Beale whoever that was? I just found this site today.
Steve, most of the people here who are renouncing US citizenship already did it once before … decades ago. But the US government doesn’t seem to want to get the message and is trying to reclaim former citizens, that’s why they are once again formally relinquishing or renouncing. That’s not whining, it’s a legitimate complaint.
@whoaIt’sSteve- I can assure you that when I left the U.S. that it there was no love lost. I left the U.S. because there was no “advantage” in having U.S. citizenship and I still can see no advantage in holding it.
U.S. citizenship will become of questionable value as knowledge about FATCA, FBAR’s and IRS right of eternal taxation begins to spread around the world.
And no, I had no idea that the IRS would claim such a ridiculous and aberrant power. America can’t countenance the possibility that it may actually be wrong. America has incurrs absolutely no losses when its citizens move abroad. Their move actually puts the country in a better position because the government no longer has to incurr any expenses in the form of services. Their absence also reduces the government’s exposure to citizen risk. The whole rational for citizen based taxation is flawed.
By making it impossible for its citizens to move abroad America is actually violating a principle of Captialism, which is the free flow of goods and services. Labour is a service and the way to combat unemployment/under employment is for labour to be able to move. One of the reasons why unemployment in America has remained stubbronly high during this last recession is because home ownership, has prevented the free movement of labour within the country. People who leave the confines of America and look for work are to be admired and not punished with archaic ideas of ownership.
Most of the people renouncing are not doing it due to taxes because they don’t owe any. But the FATCA regulations have made Americans pariahs in the financial world. There are countries where you can’t even open a basic bank account or will have your existing account closed as soon as they discover you might be an an American. The Treasury is fully aware of this and doesn’t care.
WhoaIt’sSteve
You are missing the boat. Perhaps because as a proud American you – like I was – can´t believe that the USA would do harm to its own citizens. I understand. You are not an American Living Abroad, I guess. Just to correct the record: no, I was not told when I became an USA citizen by choice that I would have to pay USA Taxes regardless of where I lived.No other country demands this from its citizens. And I am sure the Green Carders were not told that either when they were accepted. I am still thanful to the USA for accept me as citizen and I have no hesitation to say that this country was good to me.
But now my life has become a nighmare after at an old age I returned to my country of origin and enormous demands are being placed on me to comply with endless paper work, not to mention the threats. The USA is indeed being quite unfair to its citizens living abroad. You are making a confusion between Americans Living in the USA who have hided foreign accounts and Americans Living Abroad who have nothing to hide. If you don´t believe me please check the report from the IRS Tax Advisor when talking about our plight. As far as I know she is quite American. And take a look at http://www.aca.ch. Then we will talk,
@omghess…
The United States doesn’t consider your citizenship renounced based upon a citizenship ceremony conducted by a foreign government, I’ve done only several minutes to an hour of research on that in the past.
That being said if one wants to renounce their citizenship that is entirely their right to do it. The whining I’m seeing is that people are upset that they are using institutions which are domiciled outside the United States but these organizations actively trade in and do business with or have divisions in the US which means they are subject to US law. I’m seeing whining that the US is changing the law regarding anyone who may be or have been a US citizens regarding account balances. (Whether or not that is justified depends on the situation, do I think foreign national’s PII should be exposed to the US of course not, but any and every American citizen’s should.)
Getting upset at this seems to me to be pointing to someone who is trying to hide from the jurisdiction of the IRS. If I’m seeing it wrong maybe you could correct my errors? I completely understand the allure and opportunity of living and working abroad but that also comes with responsibilities as a US citizen/resident, you have to follow the rules.
@whoait’ssteve- the old laws very clearly spelled out that taking on the citizenship of another country did indeed result in your automatic loss of U.S. citizenship. For the U.S. to change the law and then to retroactively reinstate the citizenship of people who had voluntarily relinquished that same citizenship is a misscarriage of justice.
As for the U.S.’s attempt to apply its laws on an extraterrtitorial basis, that is nothing nothing more than arrogance. When you live in another jurisdiction then you are subject purely to the laws of that jurisdiction. For another country to say otherwise is a violation of the sovereignty of the country of residence. I should not have to live like an American if I don’t live in America. I know for a fact that America takes the same stance with regards to anyone who may be the citizen of another country while resident within its borders. Afterall don’t Saudi women who are living in America have the right to drive?
Steve: at least in my situation, I’m afraid that the same will happen to me that is happening to Americans in Europe. Banks are shutting their accounts instead of dealing with US laws.
Other thing – I left America because I didn’t like it there. I saw a situation that I knew would get worse, and it HAS. Now I’ve been overseas for 6 years, and the same bloody hand is showing up in my life again. Many of us don’t want to be Americans in the first place. I sure as heck don’t. I’m bitter too because I have the pay $450 to be free of the US. I didn’t even ask to be a US Citizen in the first place. WTF is that!
Steve, the problem with the US citizenship laws is that they are a moving target and apparently retroactive. I wouldn’t be surprised if the law changes again soon. We have also done extensive research into US laws on this site. Most of us are Canadians and had not thought about the US tax system especially since we moved here as small children.
Prior to 1986 you were considered to have lost your citizenship when you took the oath of another country and took their citizenship. In fact the US was very clear about that even sending people letters which have been posted on this site. Unfortunately, they didn’t seem to mail Certificates of Loss of Nationality to most of them. Getting a CLN out of the State Department takes a year and comes with all kinds of potential complications.
The US did not inform these former citizens that they were being reclaimed when the law changed in 1986. They have lived their lives as non-Americans. When you don’t live in the US you don’t keep up with their changing laws.
If it was easy to renounce US citizenship you would not hear any whining. People would just go and do it. The problem is that the IRS wants to fine people $10,000 per year per account just for not letting them know that you have a foreign account (which to us is not foreign it’s local). There is one person on this site who paid a $25,000 penalty for not reporting his bank accounts in the country where he lives.
@WhoaIt’sSteve
You obviously have not read enough. The DOS still accepts that if you performed ‘an expatriating act (i.e.citizenship in another country), voluntarily and with intent to relinquish’ your US citizenship, then you did in fact ‘relinquish’ that citizenship. They will even back date the Certificate of Loss of Nationality. The US has two different departments (DOS and IRS) with two different Loss of Nationality Laws. And the IRS law only came into being in 1990. Many of us who became Canadian prior to sometime in 1973, actually swore a renunciatory oath along with our oath of allegiance to Canada. Now you tell me how can one department say you are no longer a U.S. citizen and another department say ‘oh, yes you are’, we are restoring your citizenship for tax purposes. Makes no sense to anyone who is in the least bit fair – minded and thinks logically.
I think you need more reading time. But perhaps that won’t help.
Steve, I can see how someone who has not read the entire site might think we’re a bunch of tax evaders but I can assure you it’s not the case for most of us. The Canadian Finance Minister has stated this in news articles published in the US.
There may be 2 or 3 out of the hundreds that post and read this site who might actually fall into the category of tax evader willingly or otherwise.
We don’t expect to solve this on our own. The Canadian government is actively working to find a solution to our problem and I think eventually there will have to be an agreement that allows most Canadians to renounce again once and for all without losing everything they own.
Yes we do alot of whining here but it’s a support group, that’s what happens in support groups. If we were tax evaders we would not post here. The security on this site is pretty loose, if the IRS wanted to know who we are it wouldn’t take much.
Please block WhoaIt’sSteve’s IP address. We can get uninformed opinion from “Lawyer” Beale if we want it.
“I think eventually there will have to be an agreement that allows most Canadians to renounce again once and for all without losing everything they own.”
PLEASE GOD YES! IMAGINE THE PARTIES ACROSS CANADA!!!
Joe, I think Steve is actually trying to learn this complex topic. We don’t know what his background is. He may actually have useful input so let’s give him a chance.
OMG is right. It is a mega-complex issue. Steve himself pointed out he just started reading our site this afternoon.
On this issue, the US media only seems to write about in-land American residents with offshore accounts and mega-wealthy bi-national crooks. With the exception of I think 3 — count ’em 3 — newspaper articles, we know the US media never mentions the situation of US citizens, former citizens and dual citizens who actually reside outside the US. It’s no wonder most Americans think we’re tax cheats!
I wish more Americans would read the Brock site and get a fuller view of what these tax policies are doing to honest law-abiding people, many of whom, including me, didn’t even know they are US citizens and/or have for decades believed that, according to US law, they are not.
So, welcome, Steve. You might want to check out the posts under “Participants’ Stories” at the bottom of the page … Americans and former Americans living outside the US actually live pretty mundane lives and are being hurt through no fault of their own.
Joe wrote to Ms. Beale:
Your comment was pretty mild and not very provocative, if you ask me. Seems she is opinionated, bigoted and thin-skinned to boot.
She called us Canadians blackmailers and scofflaws before Joe made that comment. I chose not to post on her site realizing she did not care about the truth. Joe on the other hand decided to retaliate and speak his mind as he seems to have a habit of doing : -)
Funny how she only responds to him but not to all the nice folks who posted their stories to her on this site. She ignores the nice people but continues on with Joe … must be an American thing!
Joe wrote
Why? This guy’s really part of the whole picture. An ignorant American who says that we are just “whining”. Didn’t James Fallows, journalist for the Atlantic, also say we were in danger of seeming like whiners to Americans? He was right! (See http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/01/the-fatca-menace/250763/ ). Surprise, Surprise!
Whining about FBAR when the penalty is 300% of your bank accounts? Whining about having the IRS scare the hell out of millions of people who have legitimate and legal accounts. Yeah right. We’re whining, all the way to the consulate to tell Secretary Hillary: “Take this citizenship a shove it!”
If we seem like whiners to the majority of Americans, then they really have become a nation of idiots, and we are absolutely justified to want to cut our ties with them.
@WhoaIt’sSteve, by all means keep commenting! As long as you keep up this kind of commenting, you make my job easy.
Oh Lord. It’s time for my anxiety meds.
@all
As Nelson Mandela said:
“Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world.”
Let’s embrace the opportunity to educate Steve.
It will be tough as described here:
https://twitter.com/#!/renounceus/status/185397623870586885
But, this is also an opportunity for Steve to educate us. Perhaps he could start by explaining why he thinks U.S. citizenship is so valuable.
@omg
Would you share those meds? I could use some, too.