The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
@Woofy, You voted in a USA election eight years ago? Really? Well, then can anybody prove that you did? Voter fraud is a regular occurrence in the US. Lots of dead people vote, for example. Probably a lot of illegal aliens too. How would the State Department prove that you voted? Would they even go to the trouble of trying to determine if you voted?
@Woofy,
And, as Petros points out, “Probably Not”.
@Woofy sorry but I have to agree with usxcanada on this one. The purpose of 4079 is to establish whether, since your potentially expatriating act which you claim was done with the intention of relinquishing your US citizenship, you ever subsequently did anything to exercise or claim rights of US citizenship. If you did, you’ve invalidated your claim, as far as State Department is concerned.
Non-citizens don’t get to vote in US federal elections, and State Department would be perfectly within their rights, as they see them, to reject your CLN application for relinquishment if they find out you voted in a US election eight years ago. There’s no way of squaring that behaviour with a claim that you intended to give up your US citizenship when you became a Canadian. (Why on earth did you vote in that election??) Whatever form 4079 says, that’s what the legislation governing relinquishment by foreign naturalization says (that the act had to be done voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing USC). Under a Supreme Court ruling, State considers “the preponderance of evidence” in deciding whether your intention is what you say it was. How do you think they’ll weigh any evidence that you voted eight years ago, if they come across that evidence? (I have no idea whether they can or do check overseas voter lists, but I’d be surprised if they don’t. I do know they check for passport applications, and presumably they do something else with all the time they’re spending in Washington sitting on all the CLN forms.)
As for your particular interpretation of the wording of that particular question on 4079: I agree that in several places the wording of that form leaves a lot to be desired, given what I understand is its purpose. However, when you sign that form you are attesting that everything you say on the form is true. “Uttering a false document” is a criminal offense both in Canada and in the US, and it (or something worded very similarly, I’d have to check) is covered under the Canada-US extradition treaty. I know this because I have a distant acquaintance who got extradited over filing false information on a tax return (failure to file a tax return or failure to pay a tax liability won’t get you extradited, as far as I know, but making a false statement on a legal document definitely will). Do you really want to go to the legal mat in front of a judge and a pack of US lawyers to argue your interpretation of that question, if they find out you did vote and decide they want to go after you? Maybe they’d think you’re worth the trouble, maybe not. Do you want that hanging over your head?
You always have the option of renouncing. It’s more expensive, in a number of ways, but it doesn’t run you the risk of extradition and prosecution for uttering a false document, if the US wants to try to make that case against you.
Do what you think is best for you, but think carefully. You might want to get legal advice on this, but I doubt a lawyer would tell you other than what usx and I have suggested. I’m no lawyer though and could be wrong.
I wish you good luck, whatever you do. None of these decisions are easy ones, and they aren’t always straightforward.
@Woofy. One further thought, and on this one I strongly suggest you get some competant legal advice.
I assume that when you voted eight years ago, you had to sign something attesting to being a US citizen, implicitly if not explicitly.
If you were not in fact a US citizen or believed at that time you weren’t, you made a false claim on a legal document.
Alternatively, if you complete and sign a form 4079 saying you don’t vote, State Department has an argument that your signature on 4079 is fraudulent, if/when they find out you voted eight years ago.
Arguably, under either scenario, you’ve uttered a false document, which is an extraditable criminal offense.
My personal opinion, and I stress I’m not a lawyer, is that your only safe (and legal, given my understanding of US and Canadian law) course of action is either to renounce (not relinquish) or to retain USC and go into compliance. You might decide to go full ostrich and never cross the US border again, but I’m not recommending that approach as I doubt that’s viable in the long run.
I urge you to get legal advice on these matters before you do anything.
schubert1975 – You offer an exemplary exposition of the case in a different register. The doublemindedness of willful fudgers can never bring the comfort of closure. If you think you can try to “get away” with something you are signing up to be forever on the run.
schubert1975 – I broadly agree with your argument, but I doubt whether “overseas voter lists” exist in any centralized way – when I voted in MA in 2004 I just asked for a package from the town clerk, made the appropriate statements to establish that I was entitled to vote there, and that was pretty much that.
@broken man, and essentially that is the question. The US will restore hapless Woofy’s citizenship which was clearly lost. That’s better than charging a fraudulent non-citizen voter with voter fraud. Just restore the citizenship and tax the person. But the relinquishment case is not dead, unless the Feds have exhaustive lists of all voters everywhere, and what is more, that they feel they can prove that Woofy is the John Doe who voted in such and such election eight years ago–how exactly are they going to do that? I’m not an expert by any means on this question, but millions every year commit voter fraud. How can State prove that Woofy even voted given the amount of fraud that goes on?
*Petros or anyone– I have a question?? After I get my Canadian Citizenship I want to Relinquish, but I cannot remember if I voted 4 years ago, I remember getting the form but can’t remember if I mailed it in..So if I did vote will I have to renounce?? Is there anyway I can find out whether I did vote??
Thanks!!
@saddened,
If you are yet to relinquish your US citizenship based on taking becoming a Canadian citizen and taking the Canadian Oath of Citizenship (which is not complete yet?), then voting or anything else you did as a US citizen four years ago will not make a difference regarding your relinquishment. Past history.
(If, however, someone wants to claim the relinquishment they were warned they were effectively doing many decades ago by taking another citizenship and subsequently votes in a US election, obtains a US passport or files back tax returns / FBARs, the opportunity for relinquishment has vanished and that person must now renounce their US citizenship instead.)
*@Calgary, Thank you very much! That is good to hear!
*In view of comments here it is beginning to look like my best option is to just lay low. I have, in the past, only rarely crossed the border and can easily forego a 1 day shopping trip south (last one was 4 years ago and I don’t even feel tempted now). So being in the position of not being allowed to cross is no problem for me.
But, as I see it now, the only BIG problem is when FATCA comes in and the banks start asking me questions. Should the bank decide to close my account, and no other place to have one in Canada, this would be a big problem as in: where do my automatic transfers of pension paymrnts go? etc etc.
*Woofy You are absolutely right. As far as the banks are concerned, they won’t ask and you won’t tell. Done and dusted.
@Woofy and Duke of Devon. I agree that at the moment the banks won’t ask and you won’t tell (as long as the bank doesn’t already know for some reason that you were born in the US and might therefore be a US citizen). And under current privacy and banking legislation it would be illegal for the bank to close your account or to provide personal information on you to a foreign government.
The question is, will our current or future federal governments stand by our current laws, or will they negotiate them away to some extent or other in order to save the banks the very significant financial grief they’ll incur (given their heavy investment in US branches) if the IRS enforces FATCA against them if they don’t comply with IRS demands. Woofy will be gambling these things won’t happen. I hope he’s right, and not only for his sake but for the sake of our Canadian sovereignty and for the sakes of a lot of Canadian citizens. But, in spite of my satisfaction so far with the stance taken by our current government and Jim Flaherty in particular on these matters, given their track record I don’t trust Harper and 95% of his cabinet or caucus any further than I can spit at them.
Hence my earlier comment about not recommending a full-ostrich approach, if you have a birth certificate and a Canadian passport that identify your birthplace as the US and you don’t have a CLN. (“Accidental” Americans who were born in Canada of US parents, are dual citizens in technicality only, and have resolutely had no residential, employment, educational, passport, voting, tax-filing, or property-ownership connections with the US, are really the only allegedly-US persons for whom I think full ostrich is a realistic and viable option. That’s not Woofy, as I understand his case.)
Your choice, your life, your gamble, do what you think is best for you. I’m just saying …
@Woofy,
I totally agree with Schubert on this. In the case of my three sons,(all born in Canada), my advice has been ‘full ostrich’. In my own case, with an American city as birth place in my passport, my choice is to obtain the CLN. I, too, do not trust the government to not change laws to protect the Canadian banks rather than protecting Canadian citizens who may also be considered ‘U.S. Persons’.
*Schubert. Perhaps you haven’t read the proposed regulations which are echoed in the UK IGA which has been published. Accounts under 50 k are exempt from reporting. Accounts under 1 M are subject only to an “electronic search ” of the FFI’s database for US indicia. RRSPs will be exempt. Unless Woofy has a non RSP account greater than 1M he has no problem. Even then, he would simply inform his financial advisor that he is not a ‘US person” You guys seem to think the US is going to be able to attack minnows throughout the world. Ain’t going to happen. They are primarily interested in US residents with offshore accounts. They don’t have time or resources to pursue Canadians who left 40 years ago.
The only Canadian minnows who get netted will be those who leap into the net out of fear
*Duke of Devon: I sure hope you’re right on this. It’s the only rather encouraging thing I see so far. Other options appear to be out.
And, Mr. Tiger: Can you tell us how it went at the embassy – hope you got it!
@Woofy,
I have had one appt at Vancouver consulate – they require two – waiting to get the 2nd appt and then I will probably wait up to a year for CLN. My case is quite clear cut, citizen of Canada for 40+ years, never voted in U.S., never had a U.S.passport, swore a ‘renunciatory oath’ when I became a Canadian, have never filed a U.S. tax return.
BTW, Mr Tiger is really Mrs. Tiger!
I just wanted to finally add a short update to the Relinquishment and Renunciation Report. I am number 3 on the list for Stockholm. My first appointment was held in September 2012. I am still waiting for my second appointment. According to the embassy, “urgent cases” such as passport appointments and registrations of birth abroad take priority over renunciations/relinquishments. We are not allowed to book renunciation appointments through the embassy’s online system. Instead we have to wait until the embassy contacts us with a date and time. I really hope that my second appointment will occur in 2012. It would be nice to have some closure.
Thank you, Citizen of Europe, for reporting how the Stockholm, Sweden Embassy “handles” US Persons’ renunciations and relinquishments. Yours is another example of the varying experiences for US Persons worldwide. I wish you good luck (which is the only thing it can be) in completing her second appointment within 2012.
My acquaintance in Switzerland who I reported renounced in the second half of August in one appointment just wrote me and he reports that he got his CLN in the post today, Nov. 8.
Thanks very much, Lisa!! I’ll presume the date of his CLN was the same as his appointment for the database. Our congratulations and thanks for reporting it here to another!
What’s up with the Vancouver Consulate, they told me to let them know if I want my second appointment (relinquish), but then they don’t respond. I suspect I’m not alone in this traffic jamb. Is anyone else experiencing this or am I singled out for the cold shoulder treatment? They don’t even let me know if they received my email. Hellooooo, anyone home?
*That’s good news for your acquaintance, Lisa. Nice to know Swiss efficiency is on the ball with this sort of thing. Still to make my appointment, but unfortunately OH is in hospital at present and he’s my priority for the near future. Hoping I can get an appointment sorted out by the end of the year or early next. I really want to get the ball rolling before the few Swiss banks still willing to have Americans as customers decide to change their minds.
@tiger, @dawid, @All
In response to my emails, I had a conversation with Sylvia D. Johnson (JohnsonSD@state.gov ) at the Canadian Embassy in Ottawa this afternoon. I was pleased with her reaching out to me, the first in all of my attempts. One of the things I was assured was that all Consulates, yesterday, were directed to require one appointment only, if all is in order, including the Vancouver Consulate.
It was good to have a one-on-one conversation with someone from this office who was actually listening. She seemed amazed regarding things people are going through and said they have anecdotal evidence from some others who have contacted their office. She assured me that the US Ambassador takes all of this very seriously. I told her this may be something new as hers is the first reply I’ve gotten from any correspondence to the US Ambassador to Canada.
She knows that I will be renouncing my citizenship in Calgary November 14th. I hope I haven’t compromised my own renunciation case. My main points were my, as well as others’, administrative costs (and usually $0.00 or very little tax owed) experienced for coming into compliance. Filing from without the US is very different than filing inside the US because of the added complexity and costs of so many forms. I emphasized this was a life-changing time for many US Persons abroad and outlined the stresses put on ordinary, law-abiding, tax-paying people for what we feel are overly punitive threats.
I wanted to make a case for the many I think who know nothing about all of this yet — that it is, to me, immoral for people to bankrupt themselves, spend retirement savings or simply try to ignore perceived threats from the US because they don’t have the resources to come into compliance themselves, with their only choice to try to hide in fear, thinking they are somehow criminals (while many of the real “tax evaders” have likely gone down a different path, laughing at the IRS wasting their time on us because they never thought it necessary to do a cost:benefit analysis of US extra-territorial FATCA solutions).
I stated that I and other US Persons in Canada (and other countries) are second-class Canadians by virtue of of US citizenship — not being able to benefit from the same tax-saving accounts the Canadian (and likely other) government has set up and encourages Canadians to responsibly save with — these are not “foreign” accounts to us; being afraid to cross the border without repercussion, which denies us from visiting families and friends in the US or even being ordinary tourists.
I told her it would be my decision to stay on this side of the border as I wouldn’t be able to confidently travel with my son — yes, I told her that whole personal story too. It was quite a long conversation and Sylvia was very accommodating in her time to listen to me.
So, I’ve given another anecdotal story to the US Embassy in Ottawa. Will it make a difference — maybe. I think more need to correspond there.
Thank you,Calgary ! And what good news to hear that all consulates, and presumably the embassy, in Canada are now directed to do one appointment only. And that Ms. Johnson contacted you and was interested in what you had to say because we all know how hard it is to get in communication with the US embassy about the situation we Canadians are in, despite our efforts to do so, leaving us with a sense that they don’t understand the life-altering seriousness of our situation and/or don’t care. All we want is to straighten out this retroactive mess, and that requires communication, understanding, and timely dealing with CLN applications as an administrative matter. I hope this is a sign that the roadblocks to regaining our normal lives are coming down.