Petros responds to markpinetree and others regarding the name of the Isaac Brock Society.
I have read with interest the comments on the thread, Whatchamacallit, which recalls James Fallows calling into question the name Isaac Brock Society; Fallows wrote:
For what it’s worth, if I were organizing a group whose goals include changing mainstream American opinion and ultimately changing U.S. legislation, I would not name it after someone who was a hero for fighting against U.S. troops. Good symbolism in Canada, perhaps — but not so effective here south of the border. (I guess “Tokyo Rose Society” was already taken? Just a little joke — but how about the Thomas Paine Society, or something?*)
Now markpinetree has also questioned the name:
I wish the Isaac Brock Society would change its name to Americans Abroad Society. Because the issues that Canadians are trying to face apply to all Americans Abroad regardless of where they are living and working. I am pleased that you are accepting Americans who live in countries other than Canada to share common problems. We live in fear that is affecting our lives, well being and even work,
I am the founding administrator of this website. I started with five others who were at the time contributors to the Expat Forum (Bob Sheth), when the censorship of the discussion began there. So I suggested to one or two others that we start a new site. Then I was introduced via e-mail into a group of five who were among the first to use informally the name “Isaac Brock Society” for their association. We discussed the name of the site and our common intentions at that time, and at my suggestion, we decided to retain the name Isaac Brock Society for this site. I have responded to James Fallows, but here are some of further thoughts.
I eschew names that turn into acronyms. I personally avoid “ISB”. I prefer to call the site “Brock” or “Isaac Brock” for short. Americans Abroad Society would become “AAS”, another meaningless, insipid acronym. This is typical of a government with its impersonal acronyms: IRS, CIA, FBI, ATF, DHS, FBAR, FATCA, HEROES (not to forget UNIRNASS): these are utilitarian names that lack inspiration and do not capture a vision or a mission. Our Isaac Brock captures the imagination: a man who gave his life to protect the future of a country for which many of us here are grateful; the image of a man defiantly holding a sword up to his enemies as he dies at Queenston Heights.
We now have name recognition. The top search item from search engines is “Isaac Brock Society” or its derivatives. It would be a step backwards to change brand names at this point.
Isaac Brock was not just a Canadian hero. He was actually a British hero. He represents, in my thinking, a man who knew it was necessary to fight against the imperialistic attitudes of United States Americans for whom the annexation of Canada was an inevitability, and who undoubtedly thought that the people here would hail them as liberators. Thanks to Brock, Canada exists today as an independent country. Yes, he is a Canadian hero, in an anachronistic sense, but he is not thus disqualified from being a symbol for all who feel that the United States is overreaching in an imperialistic, extraterritorial manner.
Besides, this website isn’t here to ask the Americans to be nice to “United States persons abroad”. The Amercian Citizens Abroad has tried for over 30 years to lobby the United States, explaining how the United States persecutes its citizens abroad. This has been to no avail. Thanks to increasingly draconian bipartisan legislation and a particularly zealous Obama administration, things are worse, despite all of the good faith efforts of ACA. Roger Conklin, a member of the ACA board, contributes regularly here in the comment stream–and we are very grateful. But his comments lead us to bleak hope that lobbying in the United States will get us anywhere. The United States no longer listens to reason but only to demagoguery.
So no, the Isaac Brock Society is not here to ask the United States to be nice. It is here to help people to stand up for their rights and to seek mutual protection from the United States–our strength is in our numbers and rallying together. Thus, those outside Canada, like markpinetree, Mona, Geeeez, Eric, Just Me, Moby, Victoria, Don Pomodoro, Uncle Tell, Jefferson D. Tomas, Avowd, and others are welcome and will hopefully benefit from the discussion. We need everyone, not just those in Canada.
Mark thanks for your stimulating suggestion. We welcome you and all the others from across the seas. We have changed the tagline to be more inviting to our international contingent. Yet I don’t think it is a good idea to change the name.
@Petros, I agree with you, I think the name is great and would hate to see it changed at this point. This site is so helpful to all of us.. Thank you!!
Yes, the name’s perfect 😀
I think it is great the way it is. It is a Canadian initiative that is open to all United States Persons Abroad. Thank you!
Agree absolutely. The USA will back down because of active opposition not because it wants to be nice. Canadian sensitivities and suspicion of the USA are the strongest things we have going for us. On this 200th Anniversary of our Victory in the War of 1812, let’s stand tall!
Let me put it simple — it is the spirit of Isaac Brook. So it should not be only confined within Canadian border.
We also cherish MLK’s spirit for equality — it is not confined inside US border.
I think the war symbolism is very appropriate because that’s exactly what this is … a tax war … with the United States and their citizenship based taxation on one side and the rest of the world with residency based taxation on the other side.
Having a peaceful country like Canada take the lead against the American invasion can only help our cause in the eyes of the media … the intelligent media anyway.
Maybe that $16 million dollar PR firm the IRS is going to hire will tell them targeting Canada had to be their dumbest move.
Perhaps the “war” banner could have embedded onto it something like “A FIGHT AGAINST UNJUST CITIZENSHIP-BASED TAXATION AND REPORTING” ???
I saw from an ACA email where a congressperson flat out says that US Citizens overseas don’t pay taxes. This congressperson must have his head up his backside! I’m paying A LOT more taxes here than I would pay in the US.
I’m just tired of dealing with these people that have no clue as to what it is really like living overseas. I’m tired of them acting as if I live there for tax purposes, yet they give me absolutely NOTHING in return. I’m not going to fight– I’m just going to renounce. And I can’t wait to do it.
I’m still waiting to find someone who ** regrets ** ditching US Citizenship. I think I better not hold my breath.
By the way– my 2cents on the name. The name means nothing. The contributors and the content mean everything.
@calgary411, I think that’s a good idea.
There is dignity and inspiration to the name. I love it! Having been been born and educated in the U.S., it is good to be able to embrace and learn about a Canadian hero that saved this country, which many of us call home.
I like the name Isaac Brock and think we should keep it, as I stated in another post. Personally I think that the UK is democratically deficient because it does not have a written constitution (the magna carta does not count because it only guarantees rights of nobles as far as I can remember). The UK never completely assimilated the lessons of the American experience (even if the Yanks don’t respect their own darn principles anymore, despite the written constitution). Nonetheless, we are all lucky in the English-speaking world to have a decent Queen who takes her job quite seriously (especially considering that Civilians would have retired by now) and I think she should put a stop to the fake democracy in the UK and call a constitutional convention. My dear Elisabeth II, please make your country a REAL constitutional democracy like Scandinavian countries (grundlov). Canada has a charter of rights, we all have the International Declaration of Human Rights and the first articles in many of the other constitutions contain an enumeration of rights. Don’t let the US mess with its own list of unalienable rights, and certainly not with ours. If we are not sure what tradition allows (and what it doesn’t) let us hold a constitutional convention and a popular vote! Our ancestors (and many of our non-ancestors who died) fought and died (or were simply massacred) so let us not allow their blood shed to be in vain. Elisabeth’s leadership is needed. So is Isaac Brock’s inspiration.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor did I ever play one on TV. I am neither tory, nor labour, nor anything else. All politicians are royal… (gentle reader, please do substitute your favorite words).
Dear friends, please expound upon my thoughts as I feel that what I wrote above may not be adequate.
Here’s an interesting argument against citizenship based taxation.
How do you apply an exit tax to someone who simply picks up and moves away and starts paying taxes to another country without giving up their US citizenship? You can’t.
So now you’ve lost a taxpayer because he must pay taxes on a residency basis and all his tax credits will make it possible for him not to owe US taxes, yet he’s escaped the exit tax and managed to keep his US citizenship.
This argument against citizenship based taxation might actually work because the US could justify getting rid of it because they could apply the exit tax to people for simply choosing to become residents and taxpayers of another country.
If their primary motive is to keep rich people inside America, applying exit tax upon changing residency would work better than citizenship based taxation.
Since most of the rich have left the country recently, they could exempt expats who left before the exit tax became law.
Thanks Petros for reminding us of the value of that name. I love explaining to my American in-laws what the name means. I particularly liked telling it to a couple who live in Detroit (and were unaware of their own city’s history).
I should add the method of applying exit tax the way I’ve explained above is what most other countries use. It’s also the most effective way to collect exit tax. The US system is the most ineffective.
If the US did what I’ve outlined above instead of this FATCA nonsense, I think they would see Americans who have recently fled returning to the US.
@ Petros
Two of my three (Canadian-born) sons are social studies teachers in Canada. They were absolutely delighted when I told them the name.
Although they had a Canadian dad, and an American-born mother, they always related more to their Canadian roots. Of course, they grew up in Canada. But as they grew up, it became more than just the fact they loved the country of their birth. It actually became more a sense of pride and relief that they did grow up on the northern side of the border. In fact, one of them, while in university, thanked me for never expecting the family to move to the U.S.
They’re scared of us timid Canadians …
Dick Cheney cancels Toronto visit over security concerns
“Cheney, whom the protesters denounced as a war criminal, was slated to talk about his experiences in office and the current American political situation at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre on April 24.
However, Ryan Ruppert, of Spectre Live Corp., said Cheney and his daughter Elizabeth had begged off via their agent.
“After speaking with their security advisers, they changed their mind on coming to the event,” Ruppert said.
“(They) decided it was better for their personal safety they stay out of Canada.”
What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Isaac Brock has the fragrance of liberty, knowledge and support. Rather the purpose evolve to encompass more, than to change the name. The danger in fighting an injustice is to begin to behave like the thing that we are opposing. I constantly need to remind myself that the end doesn’t justify the means and as hard as that is, I remind myself that ignorance and hostility are opportunities to get my message out. And I’ve had to apologize when my bitterness has gotten the better of me. I’ve learned that many people simply cannot understand our plight because it is INCOMPREHENSIBLE and they too would have PTSD is they allowed themselves to fully comprehend. But their hostility is a sign of engagement, a very thin edge of the wedge so to speak. The Isaac Brock Society should be where US persons seeking wisdom and refuge can go, when the stench that only we can smell gets too overwhelming.
omg – Canadians are not timid. Why is Cheyney not coming back to Canada? Hours of vigorous protest by lots of people outside the Vancouver Club on 26 Sept 2011. Watch this:
Petros – Thanks for your backstory. I hope I was clear that I had no interest in the Brock or not-Brock question, but was just using that launchpad to jump off into variants on “US Persons Abroad,” as the Brock tagline puts it.
Several points on the undesirabilities of “US Persons Abroad” (1) Exclusionism – eg renounced and relinquished persons, greencarders inside the US (2) Echo of IRS-speak (3) Inapplicability – eg accidental Americans born in Canada to one US parent (4) Connotation – the utter fustiness of “abroad”
OK, OK, no nitpicking without an alternative:
Liberty and Justice for All
@ USX The tagline is functional in explaining in one short line the purpose of the blog. “US persons” is indeed an IRS designation taken straight from the Internal Revenue Code–that is we want to come alongside everyone whom the IRS has designated as targets, whether justly or unjustly.
It is desirable to let newcomers know what it is that we do here. As for the term “abroad” being fusty–I don’t think that I agree. It is descriptive; and it is accurate in way that overseas, which is potentially misleading, is not. You wrote: “And “abroad” reeks of a circa 1900 idler class on the grand tour, or a college student taking advantage of an educational option.” Sure. This is true. But this is not a necessary connotation. Webster’s says simply: “beyond the boundaries of one’s country”. Of course this is now no longer true of those whose dominant nationality is other than American–but for the sake of this website, we help to address all whom the IRS considers a “US person” whose address is outside the United States, and not only so, but immigrants in the United States whose foreign bank accounts put them in a similarly uncomfortable position vis-a-vis the US extra-territorial over-reach.
I think you have too much invested in the name to consider changing it now. I am happy with it the way it is, and enjoy getting to contribute.
As long as Brock stays relatively civil, bipartisan in our arguments and doesn’t get badly branded as some crackpot organization associated with hard Right or hard Left causes, I am happy to contribute here and be a part. I would hate to see it become marginalized if it were so associated. So, I do take “M,s” comment on board from the other thread. I think that is important to be sure you know your audience. This is especially true if you want to try to reach an American audience and help them understand what the fuss is about. Maybe that wasn’t your intention when this started, but I think it should be part of the objective.
That is just my opinion, and I could be wrong.
Petros… I might take a different perspective than this..
“The United States no longer listens to reason but only to demagoguery.”:
I wished they would listen to demagoguery, as I can engage in it too with a lot of hyperbolic rhetoric to boot! 🙂 However, there is so much of it in the political sphere and in the cable news networks now, that no one seems to listen to each other any more, as polarized as everything is becoming.
I think a more true statement would be.. “The United States only listens to special interest lobbying money now!” 🙂
Therein, we have a BIG disadvantage.
Petros & Just Me –
Language approximates the concept, so poking away at the terminologies hones the understanding. I’m happy for the existence of Brock. Whatever it is called – as opposed to what it does – does not matter much to me. Last August/September I was imagining that the emergence of a venue like this was destined to happen. Appreciation to those who took the lead.
The core commonality is exchange of information and support. Beyond that function, I suspect that any other activities will interest only subsets. So far the quality of the discourse and the interaction are impressive.
Petros
I agree with you about the name Isaac Brock Society. Actually, it took me several months to get curious about who Isaac Brock was. Although I’ve had a good education on the War of 1812, from both sides, I had not heard of Brock. I read through his biography and was very impressed with his work at Detroit against Hull. Reading Brocks biography is what reminded me of the ‘Late Loyalists’ and that was inspiring.
Totally agree.
Americans abroad who want to retain their US nationality but want the US to change its extraterritorial taxation of US citizens (real ones who actually want US citizenship) already have a very good website (though doomed to ineffectiveness IMO, through no fault of their own, as Petros has noted), American Citizens Abroad. People who really want to retain dual nationality and want US tax laws changed through lobbying of US politicians (for whom you can vote or not, if you’re a US citizen) should go to that website and support it, and good luck to you. I really mean that, though I’m not holding my breath that anything meaningful will come out of all their lobbying — I think too many Americans and congress critters are too ignorant of realities or perspectives beyond their own skins, to be responsive to lobbying on this issue.
Full disclosure: I’m one of the group of five Petros mentioned, and I’m one who pushed for the Isaac Brock name from day one. My objective, which I think many of us share, is for this website to be a support for people, initially in Canada but now world-wide, who are fed up with US economic imperialism (ACA’s words, not just mine), who also are fed up with being linked personally to the US, and who want to share information and ideas on how to cope and how to get our own governments and compatriots to grow a spine and a pair and stand up to these US outrages.
I think “Isaac Brock Society” is a great name because the center of gravity of activism is really coming from Canada. But I would consider modifying the subtitle to read “Liberty and justice for all Americans abroad.”
This is because many of the people blogging or following the site appear to have renounced or relinquished their citizenships. And regardless of a person’s citizenship status, an American by birth is still an American by blood.
I renounced my citizenship a long time ago. But I did not renounce my nationality. So for me it is clear. I am no longer a US citizen but I will always proudly be an American.
And I don’t care what the “certificate of loss of nationality” says. Its not my fault the bureaucrats who made the form are too dumb to know the difference between nationality and citizenship.