I’m increasingly concerned about how FATCA is affecting people on a personal level. I’ve again written to Jim Flaherty to try to appeal to him to act now because of the toll this is taking on Canadian citizens and residents.
Here’s my e-mail Subject: FATCA: Canadians Are Desperate. We Need Your Help Now!
Do you realize Canadian citizens and residents (who the US is trying to claim as “US persons”) are anxious, distraught and desperate about planned FATCA intrusion into their private financial affairs and lives in Canada?
My own personal experiences, conversations with others and social networking have shown me FATCA is seriously affecting finances, health, jobs, careers, marriages, family and personal relationships, businesses, and voluntarism of Canadians in Canada.
I very much appreciate your response to my letters to you and the fact you are “actively seeking a solution that both countries will find acceptable.” In the meantime, Canadians of American origin are living this nightmare and need this resolved now..
I am contacting you on this more personal level because I am aware of two senior women who have recently reported suicidal thoughts due to IRS expectations. I suspect they are not alone.
Many others are reporting sleepless nights, strained marriages, panic attacks, health challenges, worry about Canadian born children and difficulties at work or finding employment. . .
I realize you may be making attempts through diplomatic channels to address this issue. I also am aware you have said publicly that CRA will not collect any penalty owing by a Canadian citizen or resident for failure to file an FBAR. You have also said CRA will not collect any tax liability for the IRS on a Canadian citizen if that person was Canadian at the time of the liability.
But, US attempts to bully Canadian financial institutions into reporting on savings and investments of “US persons” is causing phenomenal stress on myriad of Canadians who had the misfortune to be born in the US or to be born in Canada to a parent born in US.
Many of us were told decades ago that we were renouncing US citizenship by becoming Canadian. I was personally told that four decades ago. Another woman was told that six decades ago.
Your efforts are respected and appreciated by Canadians of American origin or ancestry.
However, we need you to clearly, firmly and publicly tell both Canadian financial institutions and the US government that Canadian citizens and residents of US origin or ancestry have the same legal rights to privacy in financial matters as all other Canadians. We need you to further strongly advise financial institutions they cannot violate Canadian law to satisfy the demands of a foreign government.
And, we need you to tell Canadians of American origin that Canadian government will not allow Canadian financial institutions to violate their rights to manage their financial affairs and investments in privacy and with confidence.
Finally, we need your assurance Canadian law will not be changed to accommodate the demands of a foreign government.
Our Canadian citizenship certificates say we are “entitled to all the rights and privileges and (are) subject to all the responsibilities, obligations and duties of a Canadian citizen.”
Most of us have worked, earned a living, saved, invested, raised families, owned homes, volunteered, contributed, been active in our communities, voted and paid taxes in Canada—many for decades.
I hope you will immediately see the urgency of this situation and make a public statement to ensure our rights as Canadians are protected and enforced. .
The Americans are instilling terror in their former and present citizens living in Canada and around the world. In this way, they are no different than Eritrea, which was sanctioned at the UN–including by the United States.
We need you to tell the Americans: “Canada does not negotiate with financial terrorists”
Mr. Flaherty, Please Act Now!
@Blaze, thanks for this. I am trying to get her to let me get her citizenship file as well. I do believe she signed another oath to become JP. However, since she doesn’t want to talk about this, it’s difficult to get the complete story, but I think the files would give that.
@TomOn
Thank you for your post of earlier today. You have done a great job showing the timeline of U.S. attitude toward expatriating acts and relinquishment.
One thing re your statement that “I don’t know how a person relinquishing at the time of becoming a citizen can offer any proof beyond the statement”I intend to relinquish…….”, both Blaze (1973 citizenship) and myself(1972) received our citizenship files last week. At the time of our citizenship ceremonies, we had to swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen and a renunciatory oath of allegiance to a “foreign state”. Hopefully that will be further proof.
Like you I also know someone who expatriated in 1974, received a CLN in 1982 and then restored her U.S.citizenship in the early 90’s. As you mentioned, in 1990, they again changed their attitude toward “intent” and that is perhaps why she was able to restore it. Because certainly in 1985 – 9th circuit court – Richards v Secretary of State. Richards tried to restore his citizenship (he had become a citizen of Canada in 1971) and his request was denied. He also would have sworn the “renunciatory oath”. So perhaps it depends on when in the 70’s, citizenship was taken out. The renunciatory oath was removed from the Cdn. citizen oath sometime in 1973, thus my friend did not swear it.
Like you, I worry whether a “new law can be applied retroactively to people who were happy with the old law and who will be harmed by the new one”. Dealing with the U.S today is a bit like having to deal with a bi-polar friend or family member or worse yet, someone suffering borderline personality disorder.
@TomOn
One more thing I might mention. Last night I sent an email to Elizabeth May, Head of the Green Party. As you are probably aware she is an American-born Canadian citizen. I believe she took out Cdn. citizenship in 1980.
I appealed to her as (American-born Canadian), to either make a statement herself or put pressure on our government, to perhaps inform those American-born Canadians, who did attain citizenship here in the 60,70’s, early 80’s, that they have in fact “relinquished” their U.S. citizenship. (Assuming they have not done anything since then to negate the relinquishment).
I wonder if others, posting on this site, in similar circumstances, might also email/wrote Elizabeth May.
@kcal, @outraged,@Blaze
I thank you for your replies, but I’M scared stiff of all this, I’m spleeplest, very anxious and I’m not writing the rest. If I do nothing what might happen ?
@kcal, @outraged,@Blaze
I should have written that being a «border baby» from canadian parents and haven gotten my canadian citizenship 30 years later and then 12 years later got US SSN and passport. I still don’t know what to do. What happens if I do nothing. I’m sure that my SSN number is in their IRS computer. Furthermore, I cannot renounce if I don’t file from what I read on this blog possibly last friday.
@Blaze No unfortunately my wife’s file doesn’t show she signed the renunciation in 1975. It was I who became a citizen in 1975; she was a couple of years later.
The information we have from Library and Archives Canada says the renunciation oath was dropped as part of the Canadian citizenship process in April 1973 (I think it was April 3). However I’ve heard that a few citizenship courts didn’t get the message and kept using it for a few weeks or even months until that got straightened out.
I haven’t seen my own citizenship file, there’s no particular reason why I’d want to (with a CLN there’s no need for me to have a copy of the renunciation oath even if one is in the file). But I don’t recall swearing a renunciation in 1975, and I think I’d remember that. My wife doesn’t recall swearing a renunciation a couple of years later, and her file definitely doesn’t have any evidence of one.
I also have heard from one other member of this forum who became a Canadian citizen late in 1973, has received a copy of his file, and there’s no renunciation oath in it. So it’s unlikely that anyone who became Canadian after April 1973 is going to find a renunciation oath in their file. Unless maybe it was in May or perhaps June in a relatively remote area, probably worth checking just in case, but I wouldn’t want to bet the family farm on it.
I forget the details in your case, Blaze, but my recollection is that you were only a couple of weeks past the “end date” for renunciations. Maybe your citizenship court hadn’t got the message yet, or maybe they had some extra forms left over and decided to use them up … (I’m half-joking on that; I’ve heard of and seen stranger things in bureaucracies).
Greenwood. What is it about DON’T FILE that troubles you? Believe us-you are truly un petit poisson-they have much bigger fish to fry.
Leave well enough alone- nothing ,absolutely nothing, will happen. I have learned that the lawyers and accountants are happy to take your money. Bad legal advice came within hours of costing us tens of thousands through the OVDI.
@Greenwood, I know how you feel. I wish I could email you and talk..
@saddened123
Go through Petros if he wishes, it’s ok with me.
@ Tiger
Good point that signing an oath of allegiance to a foreign state also shows intent. We were late 1973 and neither one of us remembers signing anything. Thought of a few more things after I posted yesterday…
In Vance v. Terrazas (1980) the Court concluded that “In the last analysis, expatriation depends on the will of the citizen rather than on the will of Congress and its assessment of his conduct.”
Both people I know who restored their citizenship had only to say they had not intended to relinquish to get the ball rolling – no further proof of intent required. The burden of proof seems to shift depending on who bears the burden and what the U.S. wants to accomplish.
@Greenwood: Do you have a need to go to U.S.? If not, I think you have very little reason to worry. You are a Canadian citizen and a Canadian resident. CRA will not collect anything on your behalf for IRS. IRS can’t come into Canada and drag you into court or arrest you.
Even if you do have a need to go to U.S., travel on a Canadian passport. A few of us have been told we should get a U.S. passport, but that hasn’t happened to everyone. No one has been arrested at the border for traveling on a Canadian passport (to the best of my knowledge, anyway!) I have not and will not travel on a U.S. passport, so my test will be when I travel next month for my mother’s 89th birthday.
The other alternative for travel is to get an Enhanced Driver’s License if your province offers one. In Ontario EDL does not show place of birth (but, of course, the border officer still has the right to ask). Nobledreamer posted significant info about the EDL somewhere.
Under Canada Bank Act and Canada Privacy Act, your bank has no right to ask you about your place of birth. If they do that without the law being changed, we may have grounds together for a lawsuit. If the government changes the law to accommodate FATCA (and Flaherty has given no indication so far that he is interested in that!), we may have grounds together for a lawsuit against the government.
Do you have any investments in the U.S? If so, I personally would get rid of them as soon as possible. If not, that’s one less thing to be concerned about. As I understand it from the most recent guidelines and from the reply Schubert and I had from Canadian Bankers Association, the 30% withholding banks may be required to make only applies to U.S. source income.
Although you were born as a border baby in U.S. I assume you have a Canadian citizenhip certificate. If not, get one! The wallet sized photo citizenship cards are no longer being issued. Since February 1, 2012, the Canadian citizenship certificate is letter size and has security features in it.
For most of us, the larger copy is better for our purposes because it shows the date we became Canadian citizens. The photo wallet size only shows the date of issue.
The certificate has the exact same statement as the old certificates: (Name) “is a Canadian citizen and, as such is entitled to all the rights and privileges and bears all the responsibilities, obligations and duties of a Canadian citizen.”
The fee to get a new certificate is $75, but it’s money well spent! Here’s the link to an application for a new or replacement certificate: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/certif.asp
CIC indicated to me processing time was 10 months, but I had mine in less than two months. Another member of IBS told me she also only waited about two months.
The most important thing I would advise is Stay Connected with us here at IBS. There is strength in numbers. Please try to stay calm–And get some sleep!
@TomOn: I think it is likely you and your wife did sign an Oath as well as swearing it. You probably don’t need it because you have a CLN, but if your wife or anyone else wants to a copy of your citizenship file, here is a link to info on how to apply.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/atip/index.asp
You don’t have to use the form to apply. Instead, you can send them a letter with the details of your citizenship (i.e., where when, name at time of citizenship, name now, etc.). and specifically what you are requesting. I requested copy of my application, copy of the Oath I signed, any other information relating to my citizenship and any information about my landed immigrant. Send a cheque for $5.00 and you should have the information in a few weeks. I’s faster if you receive it by e-mail. It’s very difficult to read because it was stored on microfiche, but most is decipherable.
I had a real chuckle when I saw my Landed Immigrant application. Under intended occupation, it said Housewife. I have no idea where that came from! Maybe the immigration officer saw I was a recently married woman, so he made an assumption without asking (perhaps typical for 1971!). Amount of money with me was $200. Amount to follow later was Nil. What were we thinking?!? We were driving across Canada with no jobs and no place to live when we eventually arrived in Vancouver and we had the grand sum of $200?!? My ex-husband was Canadian, so maybe he had a little bit of money that we didn’t have to report. Oh, to be young and carefree again!
Of course, IRS wasn’t interested in me then–I didn’t have any money. Now that I have a lifetime of savings and a mortgage free home, they want to hook up again. No way!
@Blaze
Thanks Blaze for info. It’s surprising sometimes what we don’t remember.
Extrapolate from current trends with border and passport and compliance and enforcement. At some future point the apprehension of an extraterritorial within U.S. jurisdiction seems likely.
If the technicalities of registering offense and executing process mean that such an apprehension cannot happen, then Canadian citizens have no reason whatsoever to comply with any IRS requirement.
It would be interesting to know if an offender could be taken into custody without having had prior notification of “wanted” status. If not, then feel free. The worst that could happen is turnback at the border. Turnback could also happen with complete compliance and a CLN in hand, since no alien has right of entry.
If mass media were to carry a capture story, the IRS has obtains free advertising to coerce further compliance. If a story were to remain untold, the trapping of hapless individuals could continue. A win-win for the IRS.
@KalC You wrote on March 12«Bad legal advice came within hours of costing us tens of thousands through the OVDI».
Did you file and have you renouced ?
Did not file. Not going to renounce
@Blaze, OMG, Tiger, Calgary 411, thanks to all of you on Sunday giving me renewed energy. We have at least convinced my mother to ‘think about’ not filing yet. Believe it or not, that’s a huge step, for her! And OMG.. I think your diagnosis/analysis was pretty spot on about her extreme state of anxiety. We’re working on both of those. Just wanted to give you an update and to let you know that you helped tremendously.
@Outragec
First steps. I am so happy that your mom is at least considering not filing. Glad to hear you are also working on the anxiety issues. I suffer from more than a bit of that myself (panic attacks at time), so I know how debilitating it can be. Also, have both a sister and a daughter-in-law who need to take meds for clinical depression, so I see what a valuable tool they can be for people.
That is wonderful news and we’ll look for further updates (as we will to the similar story of retired Esther Thompson and her sister from Saskatchewan story).
You’re making good progress — congratulations.
Thanks for the update Outragec … so glad to hear it. I know your mother is going to be fine once she gets the help she needs. You’re doing a great job.
On March 12th, I posted here that I had sent a letter to Elizabeth May on the 11th of March via email. In today’s mail, I received a reply, written on the 12th. That is very responsive and I am quite appreciative. In her letter to me, she stresses that ‘I am dedicated to taking action on your behalf ‘. She speaks to having met with Ambassador Jacobson and has written to the Prime Minister on the issue. She states that ‘the government has taken the position I urged and is forcefully advocating that the US stop targeting law-abiding Canadians in pursuit of those US citizens hiding in the Cayman Islands.’ She goes on to say ‘many are seeking a solution to the problem….I will keep you posted as I work to find a sensible approach’. There is also a note added to the typed letter in her handwriting stating ‘ I think that the US is not interested in coming after average citizens – but we need to remove the threat’
As I said, the letter has greatly impressed me. I read it to my oldest son on the phone tonight and as he said, it is a very thoughtful letter. And by that, he meant there was thought put into the letter. Both my son and I felt that this letter was personal, not a sort of “form” letter that so many of the offices of our political representatives are sending out.
As I have mentioned previously, I sent a letter to Andrew Saxton many, many weeks ago. He is my MP. Although his constituency office phoned me on Feb. 8th, it was to tell me that I would be receiving a letter from Mr. Saxton. I am still waiting. Also, in that phone conversation, when I brought up FATCA to his office staff, they had no idea what I was speaking about although I had certainly mentioned it in my letter. Huge difference and it certainly might influence who I vote for in the next election.
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