I’m increasingly concerned about how FATCA is affecting people on a personal level. I’ve again written to Jim Flaherty to try to appeal to him to act now because of the toll this is taking on Canadian citizens and residents.
Here’s my e-mail Subject: FATCA: Canadians Are Desperate. We Need Your Help Now!
Do you realize Canadian citizens and residents (who the US is trying to claim as “US persons”) are anxious, distraught and desperate about planned FATCA intrusion into their private financial affairs and lives in Canada?
My own personal experiences, conversations with others and social networking have shown me FATCA is seriously affecting finances, health, jobs, careers, marriages, family and personal relationships, businesses, and voluntarism of Canadians in Canada.
I very much appreciate your response to my letters to you and the fact you are “actively seeking a solution that both countries will find acceptable.” In the meantime, Canadians of American origin are living this nightmare and need this resolved now..
I am contacting you on this more personal level because I am aware of two senior women who have recently reported suicidal thoughts due to IRS expectations. I suspect they are not alone.
Many others are reporting sleepless nights, strained marriages, panic attacks, health challenges, worry about Canadian born children and difficulties at work or finding employment. . .
I realize you may be making attempts through diplomatic channels to address this issue. I also am aware you have said publicly that CRA will not collect any penalty owing by a Canadian citizen or resident for failure to file an FBAR. You have also said CRA will not collect any tax liability for the IRS on a Canadian citizen if that person was Canadian at the time of the liability.
But, US attempts to bully Canadian financial institutions into reporting on savings and investments of “US persons” is causing phenomenal stress on myriad of Canadians who had the misfortune to be born in the US or to be born in Canada to a parent born in US.
Many of us were told decades ago that we were renouncing US citizenship by becoming Canadian. I was personally told that four decades ago. Another woman was told that six decades ago.
Your efforts are respected and appreciated by Canadians of American origin or ancestry.
However, we need you to clearly, firmly and publicly tell both Canadian financial institutions and the US government that Canadian citizens and residents of US origin or ancestry have the same legal rights to privacy in financial matters as all other Canadians. We need you to further strongly advise financial institutions they cannot violate Canadian law to satisfy the demands of a foreign government.
And, we need you to tell Canadians of American origin that Canadian government will not allow Canadian financial institutions to violate their rights to manage their financial affairs and investments in privacy and with confidence.
Finally, we need your assurance Canadian law will not be changed to accommodate the demands of a foreign government.
Our Canadian citizenship certificates say we are “entitled to all the rights and privileges and (are) subject to all the responsibilities, obligations and duties of a Canadian citizen.”
Most of us have worked, earned a living, saved, invested, raised families, owned homes, volunteered, contributed, been active in our communities, voted and paid taxes in Canada—many for decades.
I hope you will immediately see the urgency of this situation and make a public statement to ensure our rights as Canadians are protected and enforced. .
The Americans are instilling terror in their former and present citizens living in Canada and around the world. In this way, they are no different than Eritrea, which was sanctioned at the UN–including by the United States.
We need you to tell the Americans: “Canada does not negotiate with financial terrorists”
Mr. Flaherty, Please Act Now!
@ Blaze & Outragec
Don’t worry about “volunteering” me. I would be happy to help convince your mom that the best thing she should do is not renounce but prove to the consulate that she “relinquished” years ago when she became Canadian. It just seems such a shame that she is possibly being advised by some lawyer that filing tax returns is her only route to go. I wonder how many “tax lawyers” and accountants there are out there, advising their clients they have no choice but to go through either voluntary or quiet disclosure.
@Tiger – thank you!!! From my mother’s experience, it seems that a very effective tactic is to press upon potential clients how they could be bankrupted with hundreds of thousands of dollars in penalties, but how that firm has a good success in either reducing those penalties or getting them waived. Sure worked on my mom! I may come back to all of you for support on this, I’ll try to find out how far along her file is and if it’s possible to put a stop to it. THANK YOU
Outragec said: “Perhaps her anxiety has gotten worse but she’s not mentioning it, and perhaps a change of medication would help.”
It’s very hard to admit that your anxiety is getting worse even after you’ve been put on medication. You kind of feel like you’re losing your mind and want to do anything you can to get control over your life (even filing unnecessary US tax returns!).
I’m blessed with a psychiatrist who is one of the best in his field. He can tell within the first 5 minutes of our appointment exactly how I’m doing and whether the medication is working or not.
Another thing he told me is that due to the slowness of my business I have way too much time on my hands and this breeds more anxiety.
I find communicating with people on this forum to be a big help. We’re not just chatting, we’ve actually uncovered some things that will help us to make a legal case if required and that does help ease my anxiety.
@Ladybug: Welcome Back! It’s been a little while since we heard from you.
@outrage: I think you mentioned your mother is in her 70s. I’m 61, but maybe being closer to her age would help if she’s willing to talk to me. Tiger also has a wealth of information that should help convince her she’s not still a US citizen. If she is not going to US again, IRS has no way of touching her. She’s a Canadian citizen, so CRA won’t collect anything on behalf of IRS. And, IRS isn’t going to come across the border and arrest her!
In terms of her speaking with an older lawyer, it is critical that it is one who can advise her if she is or isn’t a US citizen, rather than just one who is going to spout US tax laws at her.
@OMG: Thanks for sharing.
@IRS or DOS Lurkers Who May Be Monitoring Us: Do you care what your financial terrorism is doing to someone like Saddened or Full Turtle or Outrage’s mother?!?. Outrage’s mother spent her life upholding and administering the law. She’s now falling into your snare because she believes in “The Law”–even though it probably doesn’t even apply to her! Why don’t you reassure her and other former American seniors who relinquished before 1986 that they have nothing to fear because they have not been US citizens since they expatriated. Would it be so hard for you to do that?!? Oh wait, I think I know the answer to that.
@Ambassador Jacobsen: What happened to the IRS isn’t after Canadian Grandmas? That’s exactly who you’re after (along with Grandpas) because they’re the ones who are most likely to have the retirement savings and homes with mortgages paid off. They’re also the ones most likely to be terrorized into filing FBARs and giving up much of their life savings because they–like Outrage’s mother and others–believe in obeying the law even when it doesn’t apply to them and even when it’s just a form of theft.
Rosa Parks once asked “You can arrest me for sitting on a bus?” She also asked “Why do you all want to push us around?” Well, Ambassador, just like Rosa, we’re not going to be pushed around. And, look what a difference Rosa made. We’re going to do exactly the same.
Don’t Mess With Granny! Or Grandpa! Or Our Children! Or Our Friends!
If she is not going to US again, IRS has no way of touching her. She’s a Canadian citizen, so CRA won’t collect anything on behalf of IRS. And, IRS isn’t going to come across the border and arrest her!
BRAVO!
@Outragec
I am aware of a cross-border tax attorney, here in Vancouver (through a friend who works for him), that when a perspective client comes into the office, he “advises” different potential options to follow and in some cases (particularly those who took out Canadian citizenship years ago) to “sit tight” and do nothing just yet. Also, please remember when Steven Mospick was still posting on IBS, his suggestion to those of us who became citizens of Canada years ago (his words: in the 60’s,70’s,early 80’s” were don’t start throwing a bunch of back tax returns at the IRS.
Perhaps your mother needs to see an Immigration Lawyer. The tax lawyers are specialists in taxes and may not be aware of the pre 1986 amendment – an immigration lawyer should be aware of what constitutes U.S. citizenship and what does not.
Thank you Tiger. I believe I will pursue the immigration lawyer angle, for her sake, and also because I also want to clear up my situation, becoming a Canadian in 76, as a minor. My sister is in the same situation as me, so I might be able to clear up three for one.
Outragec, I’d be interested to hear what the immigration lawyer says about you and your sister as well since my husband also expatriated as a minor in 1980 (he was 15). I’m pretty sure he’s not a US citizen since he never returned to the US after that to live.
OMG.. That’s my hope, as well. My actions, I think, clearly show that I have considered myself a Canadian citizen (only). I don’t have my citizenship file yet, I don’t know if it’s worth contacting a lawyer until I do have it in my hands. I just have no idea what’s in it, frankly, as a 16 year old, I didn’t pay much attention to any of it. As I get further, I will absolutely keep posting, bad or good… I’m going to start looking for a lawyer and then probably my first question is if I will need my citizenship file first. It may take a while, but I’m going to get going on it.
@Tiger, Outrage, OMG, Others: As you can see from my posting above, Rosa Parks has been on my mind today. Ambassador Jacobsen advised us a few months ago to “sit tight.” Tiger says another lawyer suggests the same.
That’s exactly what Rosa Parks did over 50 years ago in Montgomery Alabama when she refused to give up her seat on a bus to a white man. By “sitting tight,” Rosa was arrested– but she changed history.
Some people thought Rosa wouldn’t give up her seat because she was old and tired. She definitely wasn’t old (42). Rosa said “The only tired I was was tired of giving in.” We won’t give in either–and hopefully we can convince Outrage’s mother not to give in.
In her biography, Rosa wrote: “I would have to know for once and for all what rights I had as a human being and a citizen.” We all want to know the same–what rights we have as human beings, as citizens (and non-citizens!) of the United States, and as citizens of Canada and other countries. Together, we’re going to find out. I like to think Rosa would cheer us on.
Statement by Elizabeth May, Member of Parliament and one of us.
http://elizabethmaymp.ca/parliament/letters/2011/09/12/letter-to-the-prime-minister-regarding-irs-and-foreign-tax-laws/
@outragec
I received my citizenship file by email in just over one month. I believe Blaze received her’s through Canada Post, in perhaps 5 – 6 weeks. We both wrote a letter to the Access to Information and Privacy Dept. (The application form online is almost impossible to interpret). When I phoned them last week to thank them for processing mine so quickly, they told me it is faster for them to email the file as an attachment. It was 8 pages long and I actually did a dance around my office chair when I read it.
Good luck with everything. I would hope that the fact you became a citizen pre-1986, would bode well for you.
@outragec
I don’t know your whole story but I wonder if any of your family member ever got a SSN and passport after obtaining their Canadaian citizenship. ?
I’m a «border baby» from canadian parents, have my canadaian citizenship but got later on a SSN and passport. I still cannot decide as of now if I must file or not. I’ve never lived in the US and will never again cross the border.
@ Blaze – another great comparison – Rosa Parks
@ Joe Smith
Interesting letter from Elizabeth May, dated last September. I can’t help but wonder why she has been so silent since then. Also, if she became a Canadian in 1980, (pre 1986) then perhaps she should be coming forward to reassure Canadians that they have in fact already relinquished their U.S. citizenship.
Thanks everyone. I want to say a couple more things before I sign off for the evening and get back to ‘real’ life.
Blaze, I love your example of Rosa Parks. I also have found her story and her courage inspiring, an average person, who found the internal courage that can be so awfully hard to find sometimes.
Tiger, that’s good news. I haven’t been able to interpret the form and called them but haven’t heard back from them (a month ago). I will keep trying and if I have to, I will fill it out, submit, and hope for the best.
OMG, I should have said earlier that I, also, have considered medical relief from this. Right now I’m holding it at bay by posting here, on my blog, writing letters, etc. If it becomes too much, I will certainly seek help, because I firmly believe that we all need help at times and there is no shame in doing so.
One of the reasons I want to get my status cleared up (hopefully in the positive) is so that I can start agitating under my real name instead of being fearful of repercussions. Yes, I’ve been accused of being paranoid, but this is what works for me right now. I’m not comfortable writing the US state dept or any politicians or even having my name published in newspapers. If I can show I’m a Canadian only, then that will change.
Good night all, and a very heartfelt thank you to everyone.
@ Greenwood — I’m “sitting tight,” mainly because I deny strongly that I’m anything but Canadian. I was born in Canada with one American / one Canadian parent but lived in the U.S. for a few years as a teenager, at which time I had a social security number and a passport. I came back to Canada as soon as I moved out of my parents’ house, after having been warned that I would lose any claims to U.S. citizenship by doing so. I now realize that that might or might not have been true — that was in 1986, after the U.S. loosened its rules for maintaining citizenship for duals by birth, but before officially accepting dual citizenship. But I have lived my entire adult life in the good faith belief that I have only Canadian citizenship — and at this point, having long since lost any record of the social security number (and the passport that I held as a minor vanished years ago) I couldn’t establish claims to U.S. citizenship even if I wanted to. (I don’t!) It’s outrageous that people who have lived, in good faith, as single-citizenship Canadians for decades should now be forced into debating whether or not we should establish ties to the U.S. — precisely in order to prove that we have no ties to it.
I wish the Isaac Brock Society would change its name to Americans Abroad Society. Because the issues that Canadians are trying to face apply to all Americans Abroad regardless of where they are living and working. I am pleased that you are accepting Americans who live in countries other than Canada to share common problems. We live in fear that is affecting our lives, well being and even work,
Greenwood. DON’T FILE!!!!!! 1. No need to-you’re Canadian. 2. They don’t know or care about you but if you file they will. See Monty Python ‘How not to be seen’ on Youtube.
@outragec
Just a note to say good luck in the delicate balance I know you and your siblings are facing in trying to make sure your mom is treated fairly and not exploited. I hope your brother and sister see that this is doable.
Now to develop and carry out a plan that will have your mom not feeling she is losing her any amount of her independence or dignity. She should actually gain in both of those areas if she can be convinced she is in no way at fault in any of this and has no responsibility to the USA.
It will be a great day when you can report here that your mom’s health is improving and she is no longer in anxiety about all of this.
I’m glad you’ve found so much support here on the Isaac Brock site!
@ Tiger
I read with interest and a lot of comfort your previous post about the seminar at UBC by Davis & Co. in which the presenter stated that anyone who had become a Canadian prior to 1986 had relinquished their U.S. citizenship.
Re intent: The letters that both Mr. Ladybug and I received from, variously, a consulate, the embassy, and the State Department, all warned that “naturalization in a foreign state constitutes highly persuasive evidence that you intended to relinquish your United States citizenship by such action.” The “intent to relinquish” phrase harkens back to Afroyim v. Rusk, 387 U.S. 253 (1967), in which the Supreme Court said that a loss of citizenship requires a judgment as to whether a person intended to relinquish U.S. citizenship at the time of committing the potentially expatriating act. In updating the INA in 1986 Congress was simply bringing the INA in line with the 1967 Court decision.
Re intent at the time: I don’t know how a person relinquishing at the time of becoming a citizen can offer any proof beyond the statement “I intend to relinquish my U.S. citizenship.” I know of two people who became citizens in the 1970s, one receiving a CLN, one not. Many years later they both wanted to restore their U.S. citizenship. The process, the same for both, began with a statement that in taking out Canadian citizenship they had not intended to relinquish their U.S. citizenship. There was no further proof required.
Re proving intent looking back: Easier to do. Now we can say that we’ve lived in our chosen country for 40 years, we’ve only voted in the chosen country’s elections, we’ve only travelled on the chosen country’s passport, we’ve only filed taxes in the chosen country, and so on.
Re presumption of intent: Prior to 1990 the State Department presumed that a U.S. citizen taking out citizenship in another country did so intending to relinquish his U.S. citizenship. In 1990 the State Department reversed its presumption, so that now it was assumed that U.S. citizens taking out citizenship in another country intended to retain their U.S. citizenship. This change follows the decision in Vance v. Terrazas, 444 U.S. 252 (1980), that “Section 1481 (c) provides that any of the statutory expatriating acts, if proved, are presumed to have been committed voluntarily. It does not also direct a presumption that the act has been performed with the intent to relinquish United States citizenship. That matter remains the burden of the party claiming expatriation to prove by a preponderance of the evidence.”
I’m not a lawyer either, but I don’t see why the IRS would expect 3-6 years of back tax returns if you applied for a CLN now, unless the CLN, when issued, shows the date of expatriation as the date of issue of the CLN, not the date of expatriation. In my own case, the CLN shows the same date for date of obtaining naturalization and date of expatriation. There are two more dates: one the date the vice consul affixed the office seal (years later) and a date later still (many months later) showing the stamp of the Department of State(?) [photocopy not clear].
We all have certain questions that won’t go away. One of mine is this. Is there some provision of law that does not allow a new law to be applied retroactively to people who were happy with the old law and who will be harmed by the new one? By harm, I’m thinking of the penalties alone that would be slapped on those of us who were told we were not U.S. citizens but who now are coveted by a bankrupt country looking for new sources of revenue.
@Greenwood: I agree with the advise not to file. You’re a Canadian citizen. CRA will not collect anything on behalf of IRS related to you.
Have you considered renouncing? Because it seems you never performed an expatriating act because you had dual citizenship from birth, I don’t think you can relinquish.
@Outragec: You don’t have to fill our the CIC Access to Info form. As Tiger said, you can just write to them and ask for the information in your file. Be sure to give them your e-mail address. I think mine took two weeks longer than Tiger because I didn’t give them my e-mail and because I asked for a copy of my landed immigrant application and approval (which Tiger did not).
Does your mother have a copy of her original certificate with the date of her ceremony on it? It so, that should help her to show expatriated before 1986.
@Blaze – thank you! Yes, she does, it’s dated 1975!
@Blaze. Great letter, I hope you get a reasonable response.
@others
I hate to be the one to mention this, but Flaherty’s statement and the US-Canada Tax Treaty protection under Article XXVI A 8 (a) specifically say “citizen,” they do NOT say “resident.” Read both documents very carefully. CRA will not collect tax liabilities (taxes or penalties) for the IRS if the liabilities were incurred while the person was a Canadian CITIZEN. The treaty and Flaherty are both silent on the issue of residents, rather than citizens, and I’m afraid that if you’re a resident of Canada but not a citizen of Canada, you may be wide open to collection by CRA on IRS behalf, if IRS pursues the issue. Under the treaty, it would be difficult for CRA to turn down the request, perhaps impossible.
I’m no lawyer, and you probably should confirm the above with a cross-border tax lawyer, but my understanding of legal documents is they say what they mean (precisely) and mean what they say, but they don’t mean what they don’t say. And judges or appeal tribunals pay careful attention both to what the law or a treaty says and what it doesn’t say, in my own experience (former union steward who got involved in numerous labour-law litigations and arbitrations, both on my own behalf and on behalf of other members).
If you are a non-citizen resident of Canada or any other country that has a dual tax treaty with the US, don’t assume you have protection from collection unless you’ve got some very solid legal advice that says that. I’m not optimistic you’ll get such advice.
@Greenwood, no, we’ve only travelled under Canadian passports and do not have SSNs. I agree with the others – do not file!
@Schubert: Yes, but Flaherty has said CRA will not collect any penalties for failure to file FBARs for either citizens or residents.
@outragec: That’s great news. That’s exactly what your mother needs to confirm when she expatriated–well before 1986.
Please see if your mother would be willing to put in an application to CIC Access to Info for records in her citizenship file. It is possible she signed the renunciation oath with a Canadian official. My file showed I signed it–even though I understand my ceremony was after Canada required renunciation. I don’t know how that would apply to you because you were a minor at the time.
I think Schubert’s wife’s file showed she signed the renunciation and I think their year was also 1975 (Is that correct, Schubert?)
I think your mother would have signed another Oath of Allegiance to the Queen when she became a JP. You might be able to get a copy of that through her old personnel file with the provincial government where she worked. I asked for mine recently from the Ontario government and had clear, print copies of the Oaths I took in 1975 and 1985 within a couple of days. If your mother was a JP in Ontario, she would also have signed an Oath of Office when she began employment with OPS. (I don’t know if those Oaths are required in other provinces.) I don’t know if there is an additional oath for appointment to the judicial bench as a JP, but I suspect there may very well be.