In early February, Late Loyalist told his 2011 OVDI story, a harrowing tale: his 5% voluntary disclosure fine was $1589.00, with zero taxes owing to the United States, but his lawyer fees exceeded 20k. He now reports that he has renounced his United States citizenship.
Hi All:
Wednesday March 7th at 3:45 pm Calgary time I renounced my US citizenship. What a relief! I can’t tell you how good that first step feels.
I was ushered into the Consulate at 2:45, paid my $450 fee and waited. There was a 76 year older man ahead of me who couldn’t decide what to do. I waited 45 minutes for him to decide. Each time he hesitated the Consul tried even harder to convince him it didn’t ‘cost anything’ to keep his US citizenship. In the end the old guy signed and left relieved. You could see the visible relief on his face.
While I waited I had the chance to review the oath of renunciation and the statement of understanding before going through the process.
I got a similar five minute lecture, same as the old guy. Keeping US citizenship doesn’t cost anything.
I had written my ‘renunciation’ letter in the context that it sounded like I wanted to relinquish if I could. The answer was No. The reason was that when I took the oath and became a Canadian, ‘did I do this with the ‘intent’ to relinquish my US citizenship’? Since I couldn’t show or prove intent the Consul didn’t think this applied to me. I said, “I’ll renounce, where do I sign”? I wasn’t rude about it but I did push to get through the process. I raised my right hand and the Consul read the ‘oath of renunciation’ to me. I said ‘I do’, signed the two documents and was out in 10 minutes. No second meeting required. I was told that it could be 6 months to a year before I get the CLN. Until then I’m supposed to live like I’m an American.
It was all done in 10 minutes! As I walked back to my work place I felt that all the crap that had been heaped on me since August of 2011 had lifted. As I said to the Consul, “now, I’m just like 35 million other people, and that can’t be bad”.
The staff was polite and efficient and the whole process went real well. I hope that any of you who choose to take the step of renouncing your US citizenship have the same experience I did.
@Arrow
I wonder if the mention of the $50 fee is because the appt is actually with the “notarized document” department. There could be cases completely different than applying for a CLN. Are the two forms the 4079 and 4081?
I wish for both your sake and your wife’s sake that you would be allowed to go in with her. I know when my turn comes, I would like the company of one of my sons. They would be fearful about my temper for sure.
@ Arrow, I relinquished. I paid nothing. The consular official put the seal of consulate on the two forms (DS-4079 and DS 4081) and my statement, and then she gave me a copy (do seals on three copies). See
http://righteousinvestor.com/2011/04/07/my-april-7-visit-to-the-us-consulate/
As far as I am concerned, when relinquishing you are telling the consulate of a prior act that you have committed which is potentially expatriating. You then inform them of your intent to relinquish. That shouldn’t cost a d*** thing.
In other words, the State Department is unqualified to make the person a citizen or no; it is a question of determining if you have committed an expatriating act with intent to relinquish. There should be no charge for informing them of your intent. You are no longer citizen willy nilly of informing them.
That is why I maintain consistently that I have not been a citizen since 28 February 2011 (the day I committed the relinquishing act), even though I did not speak to the consulate about it until April 7. I would have told them on 28 February, but they would not let me make an appointment I became a Canadian citizen.
The Consulate is not providing a “service” for which you should pay a charge. They are merely giving you an appointment so that you can tell them that you are no longer a citizen.
I just renounced my U.S. citizenship, took about 45 minutes, I’ve always been fully compliant with taxes and FBAR but with all the new compliance issues and almost getting tossed from several banks it was just to much for me to deal with.
As far as tax purposes goes, if you are a covered person they deem you sold everything of yours the day before you renounced.
IRC 877A(g)(4) provides that a citizen will be treated as relinquishing his or her U.S. citizenship on the earliest of four possible dates: (1) the date the individual renounces his or her U.S. nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the U.S., provided the renunciation is subsequently approved by the issuance to the individual of a certificate of loss of nationality by the U.S. Department of State; (2) the date the individual furnishes to the U.S. Department of State a signed statement of voluntary relinquishment of U.S. nationality confirming the performance of an act of expatriation specified in paragraph (1), (2), (3), or (4) of section 349(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(1)-(4)), provided the voluntary relinquishment is subsequently approved by the issuance to the individual of a certificate of loss of nationality by the U.S. Department of State; (3) the date the U.S. Department of State issues to the individual a certificate of loss of nationality; or (4) the date a U.S. court cancels a naturalized citizen’s certificate of naturalization.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html
Also I have found this site had a lot of useful info.
http://renunciationguide.com/
Arrow – Likely scenario: The first of two appointments. Rigid procedure. They do not know what you are coming for. You are not coming for notarial services. So no fees for that.
All an exercise to make a prospective ex feel jerked around. Extensive pre-encounter preventive temper management therapy advised!
Looking forward to your reportback.
@ Late Loyalist
I was re-reading your original story – “arrived in Canada from U.S. as a 13 yr. old in 1975, became a citizen here in 1980.” You entered the voluntary disclosure program, filed and then recently renounced. Having become a citizen of Canada in 1980 (considered at that date to have INTENT of relinquishing American citizenship), could you have skipped the voluntary disclosure and “relinquished” your U.S. citizenship?
This is a very helpful discussion.
@M and all
Re: “In the US you are not required to file tax forms unless you owe the IRS money.”
That may be the case in the US; the question of whether it is the same for Expats has been unclear. One is supposed to file even if they don’t owe. So the next question has been whether or not one should file even if they don’t meet the threshold.
FWIW, I just ran across this on another forum:
“The question of whether to file a 1040 return if you are below the filing threshold for 1040, but do have aggregate accounts over $10,000, came up on another forum. The OP decided to Email the IRS Email Tax Law Assistance help site. The official response they received was as follows:
“If you do not meet the income requirement to file a federal tax return , but must complete a Schedule B, Interest and Ordinary dividends for purposes of Reporting Foreign Bank and Financial Account (FBAR) information.
You should place your name and social security number in the space provided on the Schedule B, then complete part three as required, attach a statement explaining that you were not required to file an income tax return, but must submit the Schedule B for FBAR compliance requirements only.
File the Schedule B as a stand alone document to the address where you would normally submit your federal income tax return if you were required to file.
This was for 2010 tax year.
The instructions for Form 8938 clearly states that if you are not required to file a 1040, then you are not required to file Form 8938.”
@Arrow – How long did it take for your wife to get her appointment for Friday at Vancouver Consulate after she requested it? Please let us know how soon her second appointment will be if it is required. And, of course, we hope to hear a report that it all went well for her.
Aarrrrrggg! I can’t find the thread that had the discussion on starting a new thread re CLN dates. There’s so much good stuff on this site and I can’t remember where I’ve seen it sometimes! Anyway, I agree that it would be very helpful to have a thread dedicated to posts that show first consular visit, second visit if required, and date of receipt of CLN, along with anecdotal information re important details of the process such as what information/documents that particular consulate requires as they seem to vary. The timelines for this process would be instructive for us all. I’m still at the stage of seeing how it works for others but will eventually be able and willing to post my own experience.
For everyone wanting to search this site, including comment stream, go to google and enter the following:
“search item” site: isaacbrocksociety.com
Use quotation marks for the exact phrase of the item you are looking for.
Here’s a draft pdf of a chart on Relinquishments and Renunciations, Ladybug. http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/
We too thought this important and Pacifica777 was in the process of putting something together to post — so a little premature, but thought it a good time to post given your frustration. It will be a work in progress.
ladybug: posted this on the other thread — I hit the website on a Monday and could have had a slot that Friday — but opted for this Friday for a bunch of very important scheduling reasons (involving snow), I doubt I’ll need a second appointment, but who knows for sure?