In early February, Late Loyalist told his 2011 OVDI story, a harrowing tale: his 5% voluntary disclosure fine was $1589.00, with zero taxes owing to the United States, but his lawyer fees exceeded 20k. He now reports that he has renounced his United States citizenship.
Hi All:
Wednesday March 7th at 3:45 pm Calgary time I renounced my US citizenship. What a relief! I can’t tell you how good that first step feels.
I was ushered into the Consulate at 2:45, paid my $450 fee and waited. There was a 76 year older man ahead of me who couldn’t decide what to do. I waited 45 minutes for him to decide. Each time he hesitated the Consul tried even harder to convince him it didn’t ‘cost anything’ to keep his US citizenship. In the end the old guy signed and left relieved. You could see the visible relief on his face.
While I waited I had the chance to review the oath of renunciation and the statement of understanding before going through the process.
I got a similar five minute lecture, same as the old guy. Keeping US citizenship doesn’t cost anything.
I had written my ‘renunciation’ letter in the context that it sounded like I wanted to relinquish if I could. The answer was No. The reason was that when I took the oath and became a Canadian, ‘did I do this with the ‘intent’ to relinquish my US citizenship’? Since I couldn’t show or prove intent the Consul didn’t think this applied to me. I said, “I’ll renounce, where do I sign”? I wasn’t rude about it but I did push to get through the process. I raised my right hand and the Consul read the ‘oath of renunciation’ to me. I said ‘I do’, signed the two documents and was out in 10 minutes. No second meeting required. I was told that it could be 6 months to a year before I get the CLN. Until then I’m supposed to live like I’m an American.
It was all done in 10 minutes! As I walked back to my work place I felt that all the crap that had been heaped on me since August of 2011 had lifted. As I said to the Consul, “now, I’m just like 35 million other people, and that can’t be bad”.
The staff was polite and efficient and the whole process went real well. I hope that any of you who choose to take the step of renouncing your US citizenship have the same experience I did.
@ toomuchcoffee and nobledreamer:
I had only one meeting at the consulate last fall because I brought completed forms with me to that one and only meeting. I downloaded the forms from the internet. They didn’t expect me to come prepared but they accepted my forms and allowed me to take the oath right away. I am now awaiting the arrival of my CLN. Another expat is doing the same: forms are filled out and the and the consulate appointment has been booked. I suspect many of us never dreamed we would retroactively be given back U.S. citizenship after becoming Canadian citizens long ago when dual citizenship wasn’t allowed. The decision to make a home and raise a family in Canada, and fulfill the duties and responsibilities of a Canadian citizen while demonstrating no ties to the United States should go a long way to demonstrate intent to renounce.
@M
I do like your comment “some people in Congress got drunk and they get mean when drunk”.
Hope you are right in your comment that FATCA will be rejected, but I don’t personally think it will be. The “Big Canadian Banks” are all taxpayers here also and they don’t want to stop doing business in the U.S.A. or with the U.S.A. As much as I hate to say it or even think it, but the U.S. carries a big bat. What I do acknowledge is that I hope the final regulations will have the necessary “loopholes” that will allow us to remain clients of these institutions and avoid the IRS. (even if it means no cross border trips – I might not like that but I am willing to do stop traveling to see my family, if necessary.)
@baird68
Did you “relinquish” or “renounce”. There seems to be a big difference.
If you became a Canadian many years ago, and did nothing since that date to show that you really intended to maintain your U.S. citizenship, then I assume you relinquished. If so, I also assume you have not filed any tax returns with the IRS, nor plan to do so. Or am I wrong about that?
@M – I just don’t see it quite as black & white as you do. I am certainly not going to rush into anything and do not see myself as part of a stampeding herd. My top priority is to prove my relinquishment in the 70’s. I have no intention of filing fbars or taxes, regardless. However, I don’t have any faith in what the final form of FATCA will be, nor do I have 100% faith in my gov’t not to bow down to the financial pressure applied by the US, and certainly no faith in my bank not to bow to the pressure. I am counting on my country to protect me and think they will to a certain extent. US citizenship is not an asset for me, in my personal situation, as I relinquished decades ago by becoming Canadian and my only focus is to prove my sole Canadian citizenship. While I agree this stupid thing was dreamed up by drunken politicians, I have to argue that it hasn’t stopped stupid, bite-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face laws from being voted in in the past. And personally, I appreciate ALL of the analogies, and all of the stories, whether financial, legal, personal, whatever. It all adds valuable information to help people make their own very personal decision about what to do.
Too Much Coffee. The only form you really need to renounce is DS 4081. Google it and download it. DS 4079 is for those who think they have a case that they might have relinquished in the past. There is also a form if you want a lawyer present but I don’t have the number.
Outreagec
@Outreagec This is an earlier post from renounceuscitizenship
‘I thought I read that your mother was a Justice of the Peace. It seems to me that this is a fact (see s. 349) which would strengthen the claim that she is not Cdn. It would be a great tragedy (sic) for her to go file taxes, etc. without really exploring this.’
Clearly renounce meant to say ‘strengthen the claim that she is not American”
Good luck persuading her.
I recently renounced at the Calgary consulate with another family member, and we encountered no difficulties. After living in Canada since 1973 and raising three children, I would never consider moving back to the U.S., my birth country. As mentioned before, I also have an adult daughter,with a developmental disability, who has been denied the right to renounce by the U.S. Consulate. My husband is not a U.S. citizen. Our son has decided to keep his dual citizenship, as he is an engineer in Calgary, but has worked in the U.S. various times. He may regret this decision later in life. But for now, it is his choice. So, perhaps, for him, he sees having dual citizenship as an “asset.” But for the majority of us, we definitely do not see it as an asset and we have put hours (my husband says he has spent 100 hours!) into learning everything about the tax implications, compliance, penalties, exit taxes, etc. and talking to a U.S. tax lawyer via telephone, plus planning our wills trying to safeguard our daughter with the disability, who cannot renounce. It looks like we will still have to endure filing tax returns for this daughter well into the future, which is a burden and unfair. But for me, it is going to be a real celebration when I get the Loss of Nationality paper in the mail! My last tax filings after renouncing are ready to be mailed. Hopefully, that work will all be acceptable by the IRS.
@ Cecilia
If your daughter is disabled, without income of her own, she is not required to file taxes in the US, even if she were a US resident. I think you are getting some inaccurate advice.
In the US you are not required to file tax forms unless you owe the IRS money.
Furthermore, if you have power of attorney over her you should be able to renounce for her. (Especially if you think holding US citizenship would be harmful to her.)
@ all
There are millions of US residents and citizens who do not file taxes, lead happy care-free lives, and they travel at will.
I cannot see the US Border messing with Canadian tourists because they think they should have filed a US tax return. That is the most absurd thing I’ve heard in a long time.
@Baird68 and TooMuchCoffee
Hi Baird! Long time since we have been in contact. If I remember correctly, you actually relinquished didn’t you? Because they accepted your situation you were able to do it in one meeting. I remember TooMuchCoffee posting on old ExpatForum but do not remember whether relinquishing or renouncing was the option.I also came with all my paperwork filled out but because relinquishing was not an option for me, I did have to have two appointments. It was odd because I received the papers in the mail and presumed I was to come with them filled out; the vice consul seemed surprised that I had done that. ??? In Toronto, you need 4 items (others here have suggested less than these but this is what is required):
The Info Sheet (used mostly when you register with Consulate)
DS 4079
DS 4080
DS 4081
The vice consul will give you this info on photocopied sheets:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_777.html
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
He will take some time to make sure you understand what is involved.
They cannot refuse your request to expatriate unless they determine you are not doing it voluntarily or are under undue stress of influence by some other person, factor. Taxes are irrelevant and he will probably ask you nothing. In spite of the info on the Toronto website, the $450 is NOT collected when you take the Oath. And the fellow I got made me raise my right hand and repeat the Oath; another fellow merely signed the Oath in front of the officer.
@Cecilia
I hope you have been (or will be) in touch with Calgary 411 and recalcitrantexpat. Both have disabled children and are having a very hard time connecting with the correct agency to try and arrange to renounce for them. It is absolutely incorrect that you could renounce for them if you have POA. In Calgary411’s case, an RSDP has been set up and is the issue with regard to filing as this instrument is not recognized by the US govt; It requires the filing of FBAR, which the son is incapable of doing. At present, they have been looking into advice from Canadian Civil Liberties Union and I think they have had some favorable suggestions.
http://expatsinca.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/another-accidental-american-fears-for-her-canadian-family/
For info on parent/guardian not being able to renounce for disabled child:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120538.pdf
e. Parents, guardians and trustees cannot renounce or relinquish the U.S. nationality of a citizen lacking full mental capacity: A guardian or trustee cannot renounce on behalf of the incompetent individual because renunciation of one’s citizenship is regarded, like marriage or voting, as a personal elective right that cannot be exercised by another. Should a situation arise of the evident compelling need for an incapacitated person to relinquish citizenship, you are asked to consult CA/OCS/PRI for guidance.
Cecilia. M is wrong about some things and right about others. He is wrong when he says you can renounce on behalf of your daughter. He is also wrong when he says that in the US you do not have to file if you don’t owe them money. You may not owe money but in some situations you are supposed to file anyway.
He is absolutely CORRECT in saying that you can safely forget about filing for your daughter. Ask yourself “What can the SOBs do?’
Please see tables 1-1,1-2,1-3 starting on page 4
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p17.pdf
Unless you have income (over a certain amount), you don’t have to file in the US.
I am an accounting student in the US.
———-
Also please see above:
Should a situation arise of the evident compelling need for an incapacitated person to relinquish citizenship, you are asked to consult CA/OCS/PRI for guidance.
You may have to go over the consul’s head. Though to be fair, they are not likely to see the “compelling need” for a disabled person to relinquish based upon her highly unlikely case she will have to pay taxes to the US.
You may have to make another argument.
A couple of other issues that have not been touched upon, since I notice that everyone is focused on what needs to be filed and what doesn’t: I am renouncing primarily because, living in the EU, I have had two bank accounts forcibly closed and am down to simply current accounts, being barred from opening anything else due to a US place of birth. I have also been denied signing authority over a corporate account due to US place of birth and FATCA.
US citizenship is most definitely not an asset for me, just a barrier. If there were no FATCA I would be following M’s advice to the letter: simply ignore the problem. As it is, that is currently not an option due to US place of birth.
@M: “Unless you have income (over a certain amount), you don’t have to file in the US.”
Not true for FBAR. You need to read up more on this before posting.
@M
every group needs contrairian members, your thought provoking comments are welcome.
You suggest we ignore IRS DOJ and DHS regulations, we would love to ignore them.
However we are not being ignored, we are specifally targeted by these agencies.
These regulations are not part of some grand coordinated plan. Most are the results of “snipper amendments” to legislation unrelated to the tax code. FATCA is one an example. The latest offering to pass the senate would disallow the of use credit cards issued by non-compliant FFI’s.
The “stay home” option is impractical for long term Canadian residents with aging relatives in the US. My three aunts are between 85 and 97, my only sibling is in the lock-down section of a nursing home. they will not be visiting Canada.
I and my cousins are in our late 60’s or older,
many have health issues which make it difficult and expensive to travel I am the only Canadian in the group, it make sense that as long as I am physically and financially able for me to travel to visit them.
The only certain way to ignore present and future regulations is to exit the systems, This means we must cease to be US citizens.
In regards to the fee charge for renouncing, attached was the last email message I received from the consulate here in Calgary.
“Your appointment with Consul (removed name) is confirmed for Wednesday March 7th at 2:45. Please confirm that you are able to attend our office on this date.
Please complete the attached questionnaire and e-mail, or fax it to 403-263-2241, prior to your appointment.
You should bring the following items to your appointment:
– Evidence of your United States Citizenship. This must be presented at the time of your interview.
– Any U.S. passports (valid or expired),
– If applicable, you’re Consular Report of Birth Abroad, Certificate of Citizenship/Naturalization.
– You should also provide evidence of your Canadian citizenship to show that you will not become stateless by renouncing your citizenship.
– Due to a recent policy change made by the Department of State, the fee for Renunciation of citizenship is now required at the time of your interview. We can accept US/CDN cash, credit card or U.S. dollar money order, payable to the U.S. Consulate, Calgary. We do not accept checks or debit cards.
– As an option, you may also wish to provide a written statement regarding your reason for renouncing your citizenship.
Please visit our website to review security information before visiting our office.
http://canada.usembassy.gov/consulates/security.html
Thank you”.
Calgary 411, it took me three weeks to get a response for my appointment and then another three weeks after that to confirm. Good luck.
@Late Loyalist
Thanks — I’m working toward getting there. That Calgary sunshine and springtime around the corner must look even nicer to you this morning. Your story helps our continuing education here.
Thanks, nobledreamer. Cecilia and I have been in touch.
All three of our families here in Alberta (Cecilia, recalcitrant and I) look forward to one day seeing a sensible change regarding parents / guardians / trustees having the right, as with other decisions they make for the well-being of their family member on a day-to-day basis, to renounce the extraneous US citizenship on behalf of that family member.
Sheesh. Once again it looks like I’ve come late to the party.
@rivka88 : A big THANKS for the wealth of information on the forms needed to become current with US filing requirements. And I really would appreciate anyone’s referrals to a cross-border tax lawyer in Calgary, AB. I already know of one firm that meets this criteria in town, but as I said in a previous posting, can you say ka-ching? However, following a brilliant suggestion from JustMe, I may simply use this legal professional for a consultation only, then use a cross-border IRS certified CPA for filing. I had originally thought I might be able to do the filing myself (after all, we’ve been doing all our own tax filings in Canada forever), but in trying to read the instructions from the IRS Manual on their web site… my eyes soon crossed and my brains turned to mush. No wonder even IRS Commissioner Shulman has to use a “professional tax preparer” for his own 1040s. Even HE says it’s too confusing!
@M: Concerning renouncing: I really appreciate your comments, as I’ve had those same thoughts myself. “If I do nothing, how can they find me?” (ie: run far, run fast, hide deep) But after semi-calmly reviewing my own personal situation, that’s sadly not an option for me. I think it’s a very valid suggestion for those “Accidental Americans” who were born in Canada of an American parent and who have no ties whatsoever to the US.
@nobledreamer: Thanks for the list of forms info and links to further info on renouncing. I’m saddened to hear (from LateLoyalist) that I must wait for my Canadian citizenship approval before renouncing. I had kinda hoped I could do my filing, renounce, then use my “stateless-ness” to push for the expedience of my Canadian citizenship. Dang.
@renounceuscitizenship: And finally another huge THANKS for the rational discussion and suggestions on renouncing and who to seek professional help. You always seem to say exactly what I need to hear, right when I need to hear it. I hadn’t even considered talking to a citizenship/immigration lawyer. Great idea. Muchly, muchly appreciated!
@fullTurtle
My biggest mistake was consulting a reputable cross-border accounting firm in Calgary before consulting an immigration / nationality lawyer. A litany of mistakes after that made my journey to renunciation more difficult. (…and I didn’t have the benefit of this great site at that time)
@M,
There is another very good reason for taking care of all this as opposed to doing nothing. Perhaps “Accidental Americans” could do nothing but for the rest of us, our tax obligations will not go away after we die. Instead, they will be passed on to our children, who would likely have to absorb increased penalties. No responsible, loving parent would ever take a chance like that.
In Toronto, with regard to providing proof of Canadian citizenship, I was asked to bring my Certificate of Citizenship. The large, full-page form, not the wallet-sized ID card. The reason for this is that on the bottom right-hand side is the actual date of one’s citizenship ceremony; this is not on the card-size version.
@nobledreamer and others: I received a new Canadian citizenship certificate last week. As of February 1, CIC is no longer issuing the wallet size photo card. The new certificate is on letter size paper, in colour with the Canadian government seal at the top and a big red maple leaf in the centre at the bottom.
On the right hand side on the bottom is the date of my ceremony–April 27, 1973. The new certificate seems to have security features which the old ones did not have. There is no photo on the new certificate.
A notice with the certificate said this certificate “displays information which can be verified by other government agencies through a new electronic validation system.” There are two bar codes on the reverse of the certificate, along with a copy of the Oath of Citizenship and identifying information. The Oath on the back is the current Oath (in English and French), but is not the one I took in 1973, in which I renounced any previous citizenship.
Just got a note from the Vancouver consulate confirming my wife’s Friday morning appointment, and outlining all the security procedures she’ll have to go through. It doesn’t look like I’ll get to go with her; so she’ll have to apply self-control on her temper. I’ll prep her really well on that. Only possibility is if she needs a witness, but my guess is I wouldn’t be acceptable for that either.
But — this puzzles me. There’s a $50 fee to get documents notarized. I’m not sure what this means, or what documents it applies to. She will be bringing the two “relinquish” forms filled out and NOT signed; her Canadian passport; he birth certificate, a marriage certificate, and the full-sized original Canadian citizenship certificate. She’ll also have a statutory declaration that has already been notarized.
Johnbb, or anyone? Did you have to pay a fee to get documents notarized? I can see this getting close to the $450 they charge you to renounce (money well-spent of course, but that’s not the point).
I only had the $450 in Toronto, fwiw.