In early February, Late Loyalist told his 2011 OVDI story, a harrowing tale: his 5% voluntary disclosure fine was $1589.00, with zero taxes owing to the United States, but his lawyer fees exceeded 20k. He now reports that he has renounced his United States citizenship.
Hi All:
Wednesday March 7th at 3:45 pm Calgary time I renounced my US citizenship. What a relief! I can’t tell you how good that first step feels.
I was ushered into the Consulate at 2:45, paid my $450 fee and waited. There was a 76 year older man ahead of me who couldn’t decide what to do. I waited 45 minutes for him to decide. Each time he hesitated the Consul tried even harder to convince him it didn’t ‘cost anything’ to keep his US citizenship. In the end the old guy signed and left relieved. You could see the visible relief on his face.
While I waited I had the chance to review the oath of renunciation and the statement of understanding before going through the process.
I got a similar five minute lecture, same as the old guy. Keeping US citizenship doesn’t cost anything.
I had written my ‘renunciation’ letter in the context that it sounded like I wanted to relinquish if I could. The answer was No. The reason was that when I took the oath and became a Canadian, ‘did I do this with the ‘intent’ to relinquish my US citizenship’? Since I couldn’t show or prove intent the Consul didn’t think this applied to me. I said, “I’ll renounce, where do I sign”? I wasn’t rude about it but I did push to get through the process. I raised my right hand and the Consul read the ‘oath of renunciation’ to me. I said ‘I do’, signed the two documents and was out in 10 minutes. No second meeting required. I was told that it could be 6 months to a year before I get the CLN. Until then I’m supposed to live like I’m an American.
It was all done in 10 minutes! As I walked back to my work place I felt that all the crap that had been heaped on me since August of 2011 had lifted. As I said to the Consul, “now, I’m just like 35 million other people, and that can’t be bad”.
The staff was polite and efficient and the whole process went real well. I hope that any of you who choose to take the step of renouncing your US citizenship have the same experience I did.
Thanks for sharing your story of renunciation in Calgary — and congratulations, again, from so many here.
I will again take that elevator ride up to the required floor in Rocky Mountain Plaza one day. (I understand about six a week are now doing just that at the Calgary Consulate.) May my trip be sooner rather than later.
As another commenter just said: “We are dealing with an untrustworthy government.”
Do any of us know of one person that has regretted the relinquishment or renunciation? I think not.
Why would a US consul even think the thought “it doesn’t cost you anything to retain your US citizenship”? Who are these people? What kind of training do they have to qualify them for their position?
I can’t wait to feel the same level of relief. Currently waiting on a response from the consulate for an appointment where I am 🙂
Well done and best of luck to you.
@Calgary
Hmm, well I imagine that anyone working at a US consulate is likely to be a patriotic American who also lives in a bit of a consular bubble whilst overseas. I don’t think that they probably understand what the fuss is all about. I imagine though that there is a real mix of people from the extremely well-informed to those new in the job and just learning for the first time how to conduct a renunciation. Don’t really care which I get as long s/he guides me through the oath, shows me where to sign and has a vague idea about when the CLN should arrive!
… they can save their speech. Just tell me where to sign!
Late Loyalist says:
“…when I took the oath and became a Canadian, ‘did I do this with the ‘intent’ to relinquish my US citizenship’? Since I couldn’t show or prove intent the Consul didn’t think this applied to me.”
In my own case, since becoming a Canadian citizen, I have:
– voted in every election for which I was eligible
– lived in Canada
– carried a Canadian passport
– been a member of a Canadian political party
– paid Canadian taxes
– worked in Canada
– owned property in Canada
– had investments and savings in Canada
I have NOT with respect to the US:
– voted in an election
– lived in the US
– carried a US passport
– been a member of a US political party
– filed or paid US taxes
– worked in the US
– owned property in the US
– had savings or investments in the US
Does anyone have an idea whether this aggregation of things would count as “intent” to renounce US citizenship.
@ Northern Shrike: In reasonable times, your case would be open and shut against your intent to keep US citizenship; now if you expressed that this was done with an intent to relinquish. But we are now dealing with a rogue government. In such times, I think we need to become nonchalant regarding the requirements of such an evil government.
I’m not sure where to post this question, so I’ll try here. My apologies if this is the wrong spot.
I’ve sent an email to the Toronto consulate asking about renunciation. They say I need to make an appointment, and they’ll explain it to me. I thought there were some forms I need to fill out, and that it would speed the process if I show up at the appointment with the forms already completed.Is that true? And if so, where can I get the forms? The person I emailed with thought I needed to set up an appointment first to get the information. If there’s anything I should be doing beforehand to speed up the process, please let me know.
What could that possibly mean, “Live like an American”?
Citizenship ceases on the day of renunciation.
But wait, maybe some people will not be allowed to renounce – and then not get their $450 back either?
Insanity.
@usxcanada
I don’t think its that bad…yet. I could see them denying someone who tried to relinquish since it is subject to some bureaucrat’s opinion, but to actually deny somebody a renunciation who “is in sound mind” as they put it? That would be like back in the old USSR when they would deny people the right to emigrate. Maybe Levin’s next law would be an amendment to declare that anyone who wants to renounce citizenship is not “in sound mind”, thus automatically denying each application. Wouldn’t put it past him personally.
@ calgary. You may be right – probably few regret relinquishing or renouncing. But I’m sure there are many whose experience in making this decision is fraught with ambivalence – a tension between the bonds to the country and distrust of the government.
@Northern Shrike: I am in the same position as you and have done the same things you listed when I became a Canadian citizen 10 years ago.
I would like to relinquish and would also like to know what proof I’d need to show them that I had intent to relinquish. Does anyone have any info on this? I’d love to avoid handing over $450.
@TooMuchCoffee – You can make an appointment through this system:
https://evisaforms.state.gov/acs/make_default.asp?pc=TRT
My experience in Toronto was that they insisted on the two appointments required by the rules, the first one being a sort of counselling session followed by a waiting period. If you make an appointment for ‘Request notarial and other services not listed above,’ you can book your first session.
I don’t know how they’d react if you wanted to do the whole thing in one session on the grounds that you lived in a part of Ontario where it was a pain to get to Toronto – Thunder Bay or something. The Calgary consulate let Peg, who had to fly in from Winnipeg, do it in one session, fwiw.
renunciationguide.com is helpful reading, as is the State Department’s own instructions to consular officers on how to handle renunciations:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/115645.pdf
@TooMuchCoffee: I don’tt know what your specific details are, but is it possible you can relinquish, rather than renounce? That can be done in one appointment and without paying the $450 fee.
After you became Canadian, did you do anything to show you still considered yourself a US citizen–i.e., vote in American election, get a US passport or file income tax returns? Or, are you an Accidental American who was born in Canada to a parent born in US?
Also important to all of this may be when you became Canadian citizen–before or after 1986,
All of those points are important to understand your situation.
@TooMuchCoffee, I can’t tell if you’re new to this or not, but just in case you are I urge you to read the posting thoroughly before doing so. Are you caught up on your taxes and account reports? Or prepared for exit tax? I may be trying to teach an old dog to hunt, but just in case, wanted to be sure you were fully informed before taking a decisive step. Good luck!
@NorthernShrike
I would think that all you mention above would indicate you had the “intent” to give up U.S.citizenship when you performed the expatriating act of becoming a citizen of Canada. You don’t mention the date of your citizenship, but if it is pre 1986, you most defintiely “relinquished”. Check out other threads on the pre 1986 amendment to the INA.
@Broken man — interesting. In Hong Kong they specifically instruct us not to use the online booking system, with the utterly BS excuse that it’s “due to the complexity of the renunciation process applicants should not make an appointment for a renunciation interview via our website.”
http://hongkong.usconsulate.gov/acs_renunciation.html
@Eric
Even more bizarre is the requirement, if you don’t speak English, to bring two witness who are neither friends, colleagues or family members:
“Those seeking renunciation that do not speak and/or read English are required to bring two disinterested witnesses. The two witnesses must be neutral and without conflict of interest (i.e. they cannot be friends, business associates or relatives). The two witnesses will attest to the facts by signing the Statement of Understanding after the applicant has signed the document.”
…So basically they expect you to find two random people off the street, pay each some money and bring them in with you? Even if you paid them money, don’t they have a “conflict of interest” in seeing your renunciation go through? Maybe they’re being paid half now, half after the ceremony 😛
Also, this line here is great:
“…individuals will continue to be treated as U.S. citizens for U.S. tax purposes until they have notified the U.S. government of their expatriation…”
Think they meant IRS and not the “US government”, since presumably the US government is aware that you renounced if you were given a CLN 🙂
@Broken man, Eric
Same procedure here in Switzerland, no appointments through automatic system. Some believe due to the overwhelming numbers of renounciants, they cannot handle the demand, something like a 2-year waiting list to renounce/relinquish, thus a lot of embassy hopping around Europe to find an embassy with a shorter waiting list.
@Eric, Don, NoFatCat: Last October, Toronto Consulate actually held a “group” renunciation ceremony for about 22 people.
According to an article in Globe and Mail, it is believed to be the first renunciation ceremony ever held in Canada. I suspect it may have been one of the first in the world, but I don’t actually know that. Maybe we should be lobbying for more group renunciations to help US meet the demand.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/americans-in-canada-driven-to-divorce-from-their-country/article2229969/
I don’t actually like the headline :Driven to Divorce Their Country. For many of us, we believed we had divorced the US years or decades ago (or at least legally separated!). Many of us remarried Canada or other countries, only to find our long-forgotten abusive spouse stalking us and our new partners. Instead of a divorce, what we’re now demanding is a permanent restraining order.
Thank you to the several individuals who responded to my query.
aHAHAHahahaha… that’s perfect, Blaze:
“Instead of a divorce, what we’re now demanding is a permanent restraining order.” Love it!
I’m slowly coming to the very resentful realization that I may be forced to seek the very expensive legal assistance, similar to Late Loyalist, in order to comply with the basic manditory tax filing requirements (no OVDI for me, if I can help it) which will then allow me to renounce my US citizenship as quickly as possible. Because that’s the carrot at the end of the stick for me now: my Decree Absolute! Glad to hear it won’t be too arduous a task through the Calgary US Consulate. Of course by the time I can finally get there, the staff will already have the wealth of experience — having done this for all the rest of you — so it will be a breeze.
@Blaze
Love the “stalker” analogy. Perfect!
This rush to renounce seems to me to be similar to the former rush to OVDI.
It seems people are just following a dumb, stampeding herd.
Just like people now regret doing OVDI, they will regret renouncing.
I wonder if you can sue the US for scaring you into renouncing, so you can apply for US citizenship.
That will be on a later blog: “The George Washington Society”.
@fullTurtle
You can renounce, then file your back taxes, the important thing is to be in tax compliance when you file form 8854 the expatriation tax.
there is much scaremongering about filing US taxes, it is convulated but not rocket science.
You will need the following as a minimum
form 2555 foreign earned income exclusion
form 1040 basic tax return
form 1040 Schd B interest reporting
form 1116? foreign tax credit
form ???? to defer registered savings plans
all the forms and instructions are availble on line
most are in pdf format which can filled and saved on your computer for further editing
@ everyone on the blog let’s help fullturtle save some money with our inputs.
also references to a reliable professionals to help him/her with this