25 thoughts on “Ambassador Jacobson's 70 Year Old Grandma”
I wonder if anyone would be willing to follow up on the Thompson sisters to find out what their OVDI penalties were and whether they decided to stay in the program or opt out.
I wonder if most of the grandmas even know about the Isaac Brock Society. Do they have anyone that they can talk to? My father, 80, has neither e-mail nor access to the internet. Fortunately, he lives in the US and is not part of this shake down.
What about Canadian grandmas?
I also would love to know the outcome of this. And the US dares to label us “cheats” and “criminals.”
Steven, these ladies aren’t 92 and in a nursing home. But Ambassador Jacobsen did say US was not after Canadian grandmas. It seems someone forgot to tell IRS! These women could use the pro bono service you offered to Arrow’s mother.
I understand seniors have a rapidly growing rate of the other type of VDs. IRS seems to be happily passing it on to these two Canadian grandmas, whom Ambassador Jacobsen thought would or should be immune.
Maybe the Ambassador lied–just like US Consulate did to many of us decades ago when they told us we were permanently renouncing. Our only crime is we believed them!
I’m also not sure if I would believe a tax lawyer, immigration lawyer or accountant either. No one seems to know what the truth is. It all seems to depend on what the meaning of is is.
Does anyone remember that old game Truth or Dare? (Maybe I’m showing my age). That’s what this feels like–it feels like we’re in a Truth or Dare challenge with IRS. If don’t believe them, we’re in trouble. If we do believe them, we could be in even more trouble.
Best thing to do is what we tell our kids: Stay Out of Trouble! That should be so easy, but it’s not!
There is an E. Thompson in the White Pages of Prince Albert, SK but no phone number. I will try to contact someone to have Esther or her sister, Betty (likely not the same last name) contact me. Worth a try if no one else has a better idea.
H&R Block is complicit in scaring people in order to make a buck.
“For anyone who is knowingly not filing and they should be, they’ll probably get caught up once that requirement comes into play,” says H&R Block’s Ms. Hamel.
“But Ambassador Jacobsen did say US was not after Canadian grandmas.”
I don’t think Jacobsen really thought this one through. Of course they are going to go after the folks who are close to retirement or retired because these people have assets: retirement accounts, homes and the like.
I also think that the public (US homelanders) are not going to have much sympathy even for the grandmas. If I understand the article these ladies “sinned” twice. They married Canadians and they live outside the US (I have seen this referred to as “lifestyle migration” a term I am coming to loathe).
@all are these penalties that she might have to pay deductible from Canadian tax (overruns deductible for subsequent years as a straight-line deduction up to the maximum deduction)?
@J.D.Tomas
That would be a great solution!
We pay the IRS the IRS pays CRA and CRA then pays us.
Now everbody’s happy. 😆
@UcleTell
…except the taxpayers in both countries end up paying for extra administrative costs for moving money around. Great as a make-work project for bureaucrats, lawyers and accountants, but useless to the poor taxpayer and no genuine productivity contribution to anyone’s economy.
Yes I know what you suggested was tongue in cheek, alas I’m not sure that certain senior people in the US government have a clue about what does and what does not contribute to economic productivity or quality of human life. Maybe the entire US Congress should go back to elementary school and start over …
There’s probably grounds for an interesting economics or accounting PhD thesis on what the net cost/damage really will be from FATCA, after factoring in costs to banks, to citizens, and net tax returns to governments. My betting is it’s a net sink-hole. But as always in these calculations, no one person is responsible for the collective bottom line, everyone is only looking at their own part of the bottom line. That’s where classical free-market economics collapses in tatters, when “responsibility-centre managers” don’t look past their own portfolio or past the next quarterly statement.
@Schubert, UnclTell, et, al: This is US government’s idea of a stimulus package. They have no other ideas on how to get their economy back on track, so they are adding to their trillions of $$$ of debt to create jobs at IRS (and later at banks after “reciprocity” kicks in.
Of course, they haven’t told Americans yet that they plan to outsource the jobs to China, India and Jamaica, so there won’t actually be any jobs created for Americans in US. Instead the workers in those countries will receive slave wages and will be forever indebted to IRS as “US persons,”
When those economies outperform US economy, US can step in and seize their money because the outsourced IRS employees did not file FBARs. Of course, the reason they didn’t file FBARs was because this outsourced employees weren’t told they were US persons. They also were never given a copy of the 72,000 page tax code. Instead, they were told their job was very simple: “Get The Money!” You don’t need a Tax Code for that.
This was all planned, designed and implemented by the well-educated, experienced and moral lawyers and bureaucrats Steven told us about on another thread.
Interesting exchange on local news talk radio today. Seems a representative from the IRS was a special guest from a remote US location and was fielding questions from local callers.
I was shocked when the conversation between a female (who obviously entered the OVDI) and the rep in question became heated and personal. I especially liked the part when she referred to him as a Government Cyborg.
This obviously hurt his feelings and he lashed out, comparing the IRS objectives to that of a ‘terminator’. He finally concluded his rant with an insight to the 35% death tax.
@Petros. My mother is 78 years old, in poor health, and is absolutely terrified. She has engaged a tax specialist firm to get her back taxes and account filings up to date to the tune of an $8000 fee. Now she’s waiting to hear if she’s going to be penalized and lose everything she has. She has no internet, and no interest in it. In fact, I was pursuing a line of enquiry that I thought might get her off the hook (as she not only became a Canadian citizen in 75, but a couple of years later became a Justice of the Peace), however, she doesn’t want to hear about it. From her perspective, she’s been told she’s done something against the law and she has to comply. ‘The gov’t is always right.’ So, this Canadian grandma doesn’t know about the IBS, or anything else. She just wants the whole thing to go away, and becoming compliant is the only way she knows how to deal with it. Even if it wipes out her retirement savings…
Outragec I replied to your post on the other thread before I saw this one. It is indeed unfortunate and unreasonable that your mother is caught uo in this.
KalC – thanks for that. And, although she hasn’t specifically said so, I think she feels some guilt that her children are caught up in it, as well. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the accounting firms and lawyers are jumping on this whole bandwagon because they can make a lot of money, so she was advised that she’d better file. She certainly wasn’t advised that she should check on her citizenship status, and she is more inclined to listen to the ‘experts’ rather than her children. (Who admittedly are struggling with the whole thing themselves).
@outragec
Not sure what information KalC left out – so sorry if this is redundant. But, I really don’t think that your mother is a U.S. citizen. Not only is there the fact of becoming Canadian in the 70s, but you say that she was/is a Justice of The Peace. Here is an excerpt from S. 349 of the INA:
“INA: ACT 349 – LOSS OF NATIONALITY BY NATIVE-BORN OR NATURALIZED CITIZEN
Sec. 349. [8 U.S.C. 1481]
(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality-
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(4) (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or
(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or
I would think that being a Justice of the Peace would be part of what is described in S. 4.
I only know what you are posting here – but I think your mother really needs to investigate her citizenship before being ripped off by the “cross border professionals”.
@outragec
I certainly second what ‘renounce’ says about your mom investigating her citizenship BEFORE she ever goes to get advice from a cross-border accounting firm and having them prepare back IRS tax returns and FBARs.
As everyone here knows, it was my BIG MISTAKE in not doing so!
@outragec
I truly hope you can convince your mother not to file the tax returns. If she became a Candian in 1975 and has done nothing since that time to show that she thought of herself as still being an American, then she is not a U.S.person. Has she ever voted in a U.S. election, has she applied for or retained a U.S.passport, has she claimed to be an American, has she filed tax forms since 1975? If the answer to those
As Calgary411 can attest to, if your mother now files back forms to the IRS, it is the same as saying she did not intend to give up her U.S. citizenship; therefore, she is an American.
Hello “calgary411”,
I just read your letter to Christine D at the National Post. She forwarded the info to me. I would be interested to converse with you by phone when we get back from our stay in AZ and NV which will be early April. Our daughter lives in OKOTOKS so I can call you from there. My phone and WIFI services are both limited here.
Its been a stressful experience, esp for my sister. She has not heard back from the IRS about her ‘penalty’ – I am relieved of mine as far as I know. Our costs were much more than we expected; mine was $9000. + to the Accountant and the Attorney wanted only $5000. We were angry about it and I wished that I had filled out my own forms even if they were all wrong.
Now we are facing the next tax report (2011) My sister was charged double of my costs as hers is more complicated.
I have not heard of the isaac brock society.
More later. Esther
I replied:
Dear Esther,
It is wonderful to hear from you. You’re sending an email, so you will have access to the internet. Please check out the site http://isaacbrocksociety.com/ . There is a lot of information and support there. Many of us there wondered how you and your sister were doing.
I will look forward to hearing from you. My phone number in Calgary is 403-XXX-XXXX. I would even come see you in Okotoks when you are at your daughter’s place.
I had the pleasure of meeting and visiting with Esther Thompson yesterday. When Esther arrives home, she will be researching this site and, hopefully, we will be hearing from her (perhaps as Grandma101).
and a commentary;
“Update: From Mary O’Keeffe (Union College):
“Fortunately for this commendably generous Canadian couple, they do not live in the United States, which would apply a “No good deed goes unpunished” tax policy to a case like this one.”….
I wonder if anyone would be willing to follow up on the Thompson sisters to find out what their OVDI penalties were and whether they decided to stay in the program or opt out.
I wonder if most of the grandmas even know about the Isaac Brock Society. Do they have anyone that they can talk to? My father, 80, has neither e-mail nor access to the internet. Fortunately, he lives in the US and is not part of this shake down.
What about Canadian grandmas?
I also would love to know the outcome of this. And the US dares to label us “cheats” and “criminals.”
Steven, these ladies aren’t 92 and in a nursing home. But Ambassador Jacobsen did say US was not after Canadian grandmas. It seems someone forgot to tell IRS! These women could use the pro bono service you offered to Arrow’s mother.
I have made some comments about VD (voluntary disclosure), comparing it to another form of VD in another post: http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/02/22/irs-is-bluffing-bad-faith-negotiations-in-the-ovdi/#comments
I understand seniors have a rapidly growing rate of the other type of VDs. IRS seems to be happily passing it on to these two Canadian grandmas, whom Ambassador Jacobsen thought would or should be immune.
Maybe the Ambassador lied–just like US Consulate did to many of us decades ago when they told us we were permanently renouncing. Our only crime is we believed them!
I’m also not sure if I would believe a tax lawyer, immigration lawyer or accountant either. No one seems to know what the truth is. It all seems to depend on what the meaning of is is.
Does anyone remember that old game Truth or Dare? (Maybe I’m showing my age). That’s what this feels like–it feels like we’re in a Truth or Dare challenge with IRS. If don’t believe them, we’re in trouble. If we do believe them, we could be in even more trouble.
Best thing to do is what we tell our kids: Stay Out of Trouble! That should be so easy, but it’s not!
There is an E. Thompson in the White Pages of Prince Albert, SK but no phone number. I will try to contact someone to have Esther or her sister, Betty (likely not the same last name) contact me. Worth a try if no one else has a better idea.
H&R Block is complicit in scaring people in order to make a buck.
“For anyone who is knowingly not filing and they should be, they’ll probably get caught up once that requirement comes into play,” says H&R Block’s Ms. Hamel.
“But Ambassador Jacobsen did say US was not after Canadian grandmas.”
I don’t think Jacobsen really thought this one through. Of course they are going to go after the folks who are close to retirement or retired because these people have assets: retirement accounts, homes and the like.
I also think that the public (US homelanders) are not going to have much sympathy even for the grandmas. If I understand the article these ladies “sinned” twice. They married Canadians and they live outside the US (I have seen this referred to as “lifestyle migration” a term I am coming to loathe).
@all are these penalties that she might have to pay deductible from Canadian tax (overruns deductible for subsequent years as a straight-line deduction up to the maximum deduction)?
@J.D.Tomas
That would be a great solution!
We pay the IRS the IRS pays CRA and CRA then pays us.
Now everbody’s happy. 😆
@UcleTell
…except the taxpayers in both countries end up paying for extra administrative costs for moving money around. Great as a make-work project for bureaucrats, lawyers and accountants, but useless to the poor taxpayer and no genuine productivity contribution to anyone’s economy.
Yes I know what you suggested was tongue in cheek, alas I’m not sure that certain senior people in the US government have a clue about what does and what does not contribute to economic productivity or quality of human life. Maybe the entire US Congress should go back to elementary school and start over …
There’s probably grounds for an interesting economics or accounting PhD thesis on what the net cost/damage really will be from FATCA, after factoring in costs to banks, to citizens, and net tax returns to governments. My betting is it’s a net sink-hole. But as always in these calculations, no one person is responsible for the collective bottom line, everyone is only looking at their own part of the bottom line. That’s where classical free-market economics collapses in tatters, when “responsibility-centre managers” don’t look past their own portfolio or past the next quarterly statement.
@Schubert, UnclTell, et, al: This is US government’s idea of a stimulus package. They have no other ideas on how to get their economy back on track, so they are adding to their trillions of $$$ of debt to create jobs at IRS (and later at banks after “reciprocity” kicks in.
Of course, they haven’t told Americans yet that they plan to outsource the jobs to China, India and Jamaica, so there won’t actually be any jobs created for Americans in US. Instead the workers in those countries will receive slave wages and will be forever indebted to IRS as “US persons,”
When those economies outperform US economy, US can step in and seize their money because the outsourced IRS employees did not file FBARs. Of course, the reason they didn’t file FBARs was because this outsourced employees weren’t told they were US persons. They also were never given a copy of the 72,000 page tax code. Instead, they were told their job was very simple: “Get The Money!” You don’t need a Tax Code for that.
This was all planned, designed and implemented by the well-educated, experienced and moral lawyers and bureaucrats Steven told us about on another thread.
Interesting exchange on local news talk radio today. Seems a representative from the IRS was a special guest from a remote US location and was fielding questions from local callers.
I was shocked when the conversation between a female (who obviously entered the OVDI) and the rep in question became heated and personal. I especially liked the part when she referred to him as a Government Cyborg.
This obviously hurt his feelings and he lashed out, comparing the IRS objectives to that of a ‘terminator’. He finally concluded his rant with an insight to the 35% death tax.
Check out the interview here;
http://www.moviewavs.com/php/sounds/?id=gog&media=WAVS&type=Movies&movie=Terminator"e=listen.txt&file=listen.wav
@Petros. My mother is 78 years old, in poor health, and is absolutely terrified. She has engaged a tax specialist firm to get her back taxes and account filings up to date to the tune of an $8000 fee. Now she’s waiting to hear if she’s going to be penalized and lose everything she has. She has no internet, and no interest in it. In fact, I was pursuing a line of enquiry that I thought might get her off the hook (as she not only became a Canadian citizen in 75, but a couple of years later became a Justice of the Peace), however, she doesn’t want to hear about it. From her perspective, she’s been told she’s done something against the law and she has to comply. ‘The gov’t is always right.’ So, this Canadian grandma doesn’t know about the IBS, or anything else. She just wants the whole thing to go away, and becoming compliant is the only way she knows how to deal with it. Even if it wipes out her retirement savings…
Outragec I replied to your post on the other thread before I saw this one. It is indeed unfortunate and unreasonable that your mother is caught uo in this.
KalC – thanks for that. And, although she hasn’t specifically said so, I think she feels some guilt that her children are caught up in it, as well. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the accounting firms and lawyers are jumping on this whole bandwagon because they can make a lot of money, so she was advised that she’d better file. She certainly wasn’t advised that she should check on her citizenship status, and she is more inclined to listen to the ‘experts’ rather than her children. (Who admittedly are struggling with the whole thing themselves).
@outragec
Not sure what information KalC left out – so sorry if this is redundant. But, I really don’t think that your mother is a U.S. citizen. Not only is there the fact of becoming Canadian in the 70s, but you say that she was/is a Justice of The Peace. Here is an excerpt from S. 349 of the INA:
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.f6da51a2342135be7e9d7a10e0dc91a/?vgnextoid=fa7e539dc4bed010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCRDvgnextchannel=fa7e539dc4bed010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCRD&CH=act
“INA: ACT 349 – LOSS OF NATIONALITY BY NATIVE-BORN OR NATURALIZED CITIZEN
Sec. 349. [8 U.S.C. 1481]
(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality-
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(4) (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or
(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or
I would think that being a Justice of the Peace would be part of what is described in S. 4.
I only know what you are posting here – but I think your mother really needs to investigate her citizenship before being ripped off by the “cross border professionals”.
@outragec
I certainly second what ‘renounce’ says about your mom investigating her citizenship BEFORE she ever goes to get advice from a cross-border accounting firm and having them prepare back IRS tax returns and FBARs.
As everyone here knows, it was my BIG MISTAKE in not doing so!
@outragec
I truly hope you can convince your mother not to file the tax returns. If she became a Candian in 1975 and has done nothing since that time to show that she thought of herself as still being an American, then she is not a U.S.person. Has she ever voted in a U.S. election, has she applied for or retained a U.S.passport, has she claimed to be an American, has she filed tax forms since 1975? If the answer to those
As Calgary411 can attest to, if your mother now files back forms to the IRS, it is the same as saying she did not intend to give up her U.S. citizenship; therefore, she is an American.
@ renouncecitizenship, @All,
I just got this email re http://business.financialpost.com/2011/09/24/u-s-campaign-to-catch-tax-cheats-snaring-canadians/
Hello “calgary411”,
I just read your letter to Christine D at the National Post. She forwarded the info to me. I would be interested to converse with you by phone when we get back from our stay in AZ and NV which will be early April. Our daughter lives in OKOTOKS so I can call you from there. My phone and WIFI services are both limited here.
Its been a stressful experience, esp for my sister. She has not heard back from the IRS about her ‘penalty’ – I am relieved of mine as far as I know. Our costs were much more than we expected; mine was $9000. + to the Accountant and the Attorney wanted only $5000. We were angry about it and I wished that I had filled out my own forms even if they were all wrong.
Now we are facing the next tax report (2011) My sister was charged double of my costs as hers is more complicated.
I have not heard of the isaac brock society.
More later. Esther
I replied:
Dear Esther,
It is wonderful to hear from you. You’re sending an email, so you will have access to the internet. Please check out the site http://isaacbrocksociety.com/ . There is a lot of information and support there. Many of us there wondered how you and your sister were doing.
I will look forward to hearing from you. My phone number in Calgary is 403-XXX-XXXX. I would even come see you in Okotoks when you are at your daughter’s place.
Take care,
“calgary411”
Calgary, AB
Pingback: The agony of U.S. citizenship for U.S. citizens living outside the U.S. « Renounce U.S. Citizenship – Be Free
Update for @All,
http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/02/22/ambassador-jacobsons-70-year-old-grandma/#comments
by renounceuscitizenship
@ renouncecitizenship, @All,
I just got this email re http://business.financialpost.com/2011/09/24/u-s-campaign-to-catch-tax-cheats-snaring-canadians/
I had the pleasure of meeting and visiting with Esther Thompson yesterday. When Esther arrives home, she will be researching this site and, hopefully, we will be hearing from her (perhaps as Grandma101).
A US tax prof speculates on the outcome if generous ‘Canadian grandmas and grandpas’ won the lottery in the US:
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2010/11/good-thing.html
in reference to: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/885532–couple-gives-away-11-2m-in-lottery-winnings
and a commentary;
“Update: From Mary O’Keeffe (Union College):
“Fortunately for this commendably generous Canadian couple, they do not live in the United States, which would apply a “No good deed goes unpunished” tax policy to a case like this one.”….
Pingback: New Filing Compliance Procedures for Non-Resident U.S. Taxpayers – Effective September 1, 2012 « Freedom from the tyranny of U.S. citizenship-based taxation for U.S. and dual citizens outside the U.S.
Pingback: The Isaac Brock Society - US Ambassador to Canada – David Jacobson – “We are not irresponsible” – Updated
Pingback: Collective psychotherapy – U.S. citizens outside U.S. – Not what they take from you, it’s what they leave you with | U.S. Persons Abroad – Members of a Unique Tax, Form and Penalty Club
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Would the site administators please update links.
In this article there are links to other pages on “isaacbrocksociety.com”.
In another article
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/03/22/letting-go-and-moving-on-how-to-deal-with-the-anger/
there are links to where this article used to be on “isaacbrocksociety.com”.
Here are more:
https://www.google.co.jp/#newwindow=1&q=site:isaacbrocksociety.ca+%22isaacbrocksociety.com%22