I have not written much in the past week or so and that was deliberate on my part. I decided to spend more time listening and reading and less on talking and writing. When I first came to Isaac Brock I was hopping mad and ready to fight. I’m still not particularly happy about the situation we all find ourselves in right now but, with a little distance, my thoughts are becoming much clearer. Just for the hell of it and because I know there are people out there thinking this through as well, I thought I’d share how my thoughts have evolved over the last month or so.
I’ve never hidden the fact that I wanted to stay a U.S. citizen and when I came in here renouncing or relinquishing was not at all an option I was ready to consider. So, why am I considering it now? There are two dimensions to this decision – let’s call them “push” and “pull.” Let’s start with the “pull”.
The “pull” is simply the fact that I love where I live. I love France. It’s like a marriage which has had its ups and downs over the years but its a rock solid long-term commitment based on many years of living together and clearly understanding each other’s faults, foibles and odd habits. If I ever left permanently I think it would rip me apart. I just don’t know what I would do without my friends, my colleagues, my church, my confessor, my family and my community here. In addition all my patrimoine is here and I am happy to pay taxes on it because civilization and services have a price which I am more than willing to pay to the French government because I find the French public sector to be humane, efficient and, oddly enough, very customer-oriented. So I decided to ask for citizenship so I can make my commitment to this country concrete and so I can participate in the last area not open to me as a resident: political life. France has one of the most amazing and vibrant democracies around. The political scene really moves and shakes though it has the capacity to make even the mighty De Gaulle throw up his hands in despair. I was also deeply impressed by how the French diaspora has representation in the Senate. These people are not afraid of their expatriates and are quite willing to have their participation in home country politics. So, in short, the “pull” here is France itself.
On the other side of all this is the “push.” To be very clear, it is NOT about taxes. I do not mind paying one whit for civilization and services. What I object to is the complete lack of services for Americans abroad and being castrated when it comes to participating fully in American political life. Living abroad we simply do not have effective representation in the U.S. and we can only stand by helplessly as laws are passed that effect us without anyone in the home country so much as nodding in our direction.
So between the “push” and the “pull” I think you can start to see a theme here. I want to be French because I want to be part of a democratic nation-state that I have a long relationship with and whose values I would be willing to fight and perhaps die for regardless of where I happen to be living. If I decide to give up my U.S. citizenship it will be because I have seen a better world and that I see that what the U.S. has to offer its citizens abroad is (and I think will be for a long time) limited to a kind of second-class citizenship where we can be manipulated, taxed and otherwise abused without much say and almost no recourse. After much reading and listening to all of you here and also the comments of Americans in the homeland, I am coming to believe that my US passport represents a citizenship that is inferior to what people in the U.S. homeland have and overall vastly inferior to what French people have everywhere. In both my head and in my heart, any decision I make really comes down to whether or not I think this will change. These days I’m beginning to believe that my hopes have been wildly unrealistic and that the U.S. will never change (under Obama or anyone else). Under those circumstances (which I cannot change and have no control over) I would be much happier and much more fulfilled as a full citizen in France as opposed to being a second-class citizen of the U.S.
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.”
– Nelson Mandela
Great post – as I have said before “U.S. citizenship has been priced out of the market”.
http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2012/01/17/u-s-citizenship-has-been-priced-out-of-the-market/
Frankly, the retention of U.S. citizenship is possible only for the very rich or the very poor. For the vast majority in the middle, it is not even an option. What are you supposed to do? Spend a significant component of your after tax income on compliance and reporting requirements? Even if you want to do that, you are in a position where you can’t do normal retirement planning.
I grew up as a Patriotic American. It took me a long time to become a dual citizen. Even though I have lived outside the United States most of my life, I have complied with all the obligations of U.S. citizenship.
A year ago I visited the war museum in Beijeng China. It reminded me of growing up in the U.S. – the same “we are number one” view of history. At that moment I realized that the U.S. and China are very similar. Both countries have the ability to generate mindless, blind patriotism. Both countries discourage open debate and analysis about their history.
The Founding Fathers did some great things. But, successive generations have “dropped the ball”.
The way that the U.S. treats its citizens living abroad is such that they must choose between:
1. Being a U.S. citizen; and
2. Having a life.
Saw an article last year in the Wall Street Journal called:
“Red, White and Through”
Since, my choice is “having a life”, I’m though!
@markpinetree,
When Roger speaks, ACA has heard. I also sent it, as well as to the NYT author of the recent article on FATCA who is an Expat abroad 🙂 But hopefully you did it too.
@ Victoria, I wished so called “Real Americans” would read and understand, but alas, it is not to be.
Thanks for your eloquence.
Victoria, Thank you for a clear-headed and eloquent post. I fully support any decision you make, although I would be saddened to see you, and others here, leave the battlefield when your own situation is finally resolved, which I expect will happen. Whyever would anyone choose to continue waking up every morning to dismal and frightening headlines, when they have the option of returning to living a sane and normal life, happy and fulfilled, through the simple act, like Atlas, of shrugging?
I will remain a dual citizen. Permanent exile from those I hold most dear and from the land my ancestors helped to build would leave me with a bitterness I cannot contemplate living with until I die. I have rights that are derived from my humanity, rights to live where and how I choose that were not granted by the government and are not the playthings of puny self-important squishes in Washington who think to lay claim to the produce of my life’s toil simply because the sign on their office door says “Senator”. They have forgotten or never knew that “public servant” has an exact meaning.
I take courage and comfort from other outraged US citizens in America and Canada and many other countries who are speaking and acting to advertise the betrayal of our Constitutional guarantees. I read an article yesterday that said other countries no longer use the US Constitution as a template when writing their own constitutions, and there are US politicians who complain that there are too many barriers to government action in the US Constitution. If our guaranteed natural individual rights cannot be saved in America, the country most strongly associated with individual liberty, I fear that they will never again see the light of day in this world.
Life will go on a day at a time, and I will take one step at a time to protect what I hold most dear. The IRS is looking more like the Wizard of Oz every day, a loud clamoring sideshow run by a small blustery figure hiding behind a curtain to conceal the fact that smoke and noise are all he’s really got. The letters received by nobledreamer and Petros suggest that the IRS is overworked ,underfunded, and dysfunctional. They can do harm if they choose you as a target, but in the end they will look to plow the most fertile fields. Once you see that the enemy is really just laughable, the fight becomes easier to bear.
@Victoria — the words that have come from your heart always inspire us. Thanks for your wisdom and your strength. I’m glad you have come to a conclusion that fits you.
@recalcitrant — the advice you gave that our health, physical or emotional, can be a fleeting thing is something we all need to keep in mind. I know that you and I are dealing with it already with developmentally delayed family members and we know what that entails for dealing with this on their behalf. It won’t be any different for someone who has been the victim of a bad accident or dementia-related things in our later years. The time to act is when we are healthy and with our best capacity, not leaving this mess of compliance (for what?) for someone else.
@mona — my wish for you is that you can find the strength to make your decision just for yourself, not because of what someone else might think of you. We shouldn’t forget our responsibility to ourselves in all this. I know it’s a difficult concept for so many of us.
I wish us all the way to the end of our nightmare with as much of our former selves as possible intact. You are a bunch of wonderful people, my Isaac Brock friends.
(I’ve just read Margaret Atwood’s “Payback” and can put our scenarios into her writings on debt and revenge through the ages, a lot of it to do with taxes.)
foxyladyhawk said: … although I would be saddened to see you, and others here, leave the battlefield when your own situation is finally resolved, which I expect will happen. Whyever would anyone choose to continue …
Ten reasons you are not likely to find yourself suddenly standing alone: (1) Quiescence is not the case for Just Me, and even less true for Schubert1975 [the only one around who has achieved a CLN?]. (2) Technical resolution will not come fast for anyone – this will take many months, perhaps for some run into years. (3) Over 25,000 hits at IBS in the past 5 days, and this is still very early days. (3) None of us chose to have this mess land on our doorstep, it won’t just go away, and we’re here because we know we can deal with it better by sharing perspectives. (4) Altruism motivates sharing hard-won knowledge and experience with others desperate to learn more. (5) Whatever doesn’t kill us makes us stronger. (6) Vets like to stay in touch with their buds. (7) Posttraumatic stress cases appreciate communication therapy. (8) We are an important chapter in the history of this crumbling empire and will want to see how the story develops. The fascination of the ins and outs resembles engrossment in a puzzle. (9) This particular case of new social media function eventually may form the basis for someone’s PhD thesis. We are pioneers! (10) Struggle for freedom and justice forms identity, and identity has a group function as well as an individual function.
I speak English with no accent. I speak Portuguese, and every other foreign language that I know, WITH an accent. I love my Brazilian wife and little boy very much, but I will always be viewed as a foreigner where I live. Damn the US for what they are doing.
I remember when I was 10 years old, I had drawn and colored a map of Europe on poster board to show my American dad. Was it a school project? No, I wanted to do it. I have been interested in other countries’ languages and cultures since I was a litle boy. Now I’m an adult living overseas and I’m threatened to the extent that I have to give up my citizenship. This is completely crazy! This flies in the face of the US laws that say that people cannot lose citizenship by relinquishing under duress. IMHO, the FATCA for me IS duress if we can’t have bank accounts, or bank accounts get restricted.
How can the US do this? I am AMERICAN. The US is forcing me to give up my citizenship so that I can live an unencumbered life overseas with my non-American family. This is persecution!
@geees, our four kids were small when we moved to Peru. Four years later we moved to Brazil. We took our Peruvian maid with us so the kids would not forget Spanish. She had a high school education and talked a lot. In Brazil the kids attended school where instruction was half and half Portuguese and English, and in High School they studied French under teachers from France who used no English or Portuguese. It was total immersion. Today as adults they all maintain their native fluency with no foreign accents in those languages. Two of them are reasonably fluent in Italian and one does well also in Cantonese and Russian. They all have jobs where they use their language skills regularly. Indeed this is a priceless fruit of having lived abroad in their formative days.
My Poortugese and Spanish are pretty good, but I do have a detectable non-native accent. Hard to avoid that when you learn a language as an adult.
@monalisa
I have to echo what others are saying – I don’t really think that it will make a difference to the IRS whether or not you remain a citizen? All the renouncing would do is make it so that you wouldn’t have to accumulate any future FBARs, 1040s and the lot. It wouldn’t affect your current situation. On the other hand though, I certainly understand your trepidation due to potential penalties that they could levy.
@geeeez
I don’t mean to pick on your post here specifically, but I have seen this opinion thrown around by a few people that they will always and forever be American, yet in another post didn’t you say that you felt that you were at the point of total immersion in Brazil? Are you saying that you will always be American because that is how others view you due to your accent or is that a self-chosen label?
I find this fascinating because many others on this thread consider them to be Canadian, French or whatever only. Even those who moved as adults. Conversely, most of the immigrants that I knew in the US were the most American people that I knew: Extremely patriotic, flag flying on their porch, did not follow any events or have any interest in their home countries, really involved in US political campaigns etc. You saw through the accent after a matter of seconds that you were speaking to an American, and not to someone from Europe or Asia or whatever.
I think that with time most people simply begin to identify more with where their lives are currently than where they came from. Look at people like George Soros, Arianna Huffington or even Arnold Schwarzenegger: Almost every newspaper or person that I know from the EU describes these people as exclusively being Americans and not as Europeans. As a German speaker I can even tell you that Arnold sounds really strange when he speaks in German even, so your native accent can be damaged by residency abroad!
@Don, I go through cycles. When I remember the good things like being a child growing up in America, it makes me really sad that I have to do this. And yes, recently I just “caved in” and started doing things the way here. It’s really sad the US is forcing peoples’ hand.
@everyone- It is interesting reading the comments that have been left on this topic. It is obvious that many of you feel an identity with America that I never felt, even though I was born there and lived there the first 27 years of my life.
In this way I am a lot different from my mother. For her America was the best place on earth to live. At the time when I moved away to live in Canada she told me, to never give up my American citizenship. Yet as she spoke those words to me I already knew that I would never go back there to live and I never did.
For me American society was a big failure and I was glad, even anxious, to get away. I know right now that America doesn’t work for the tens of millions of Americans who are unemployed, homeless, without health care, burdened with post secondary debt etc. The America of upward societal mobility and individual freedoms is an America that now only exist in the unquestioning hearts of blind patriots.
I have been much happier in Canada than I was in the States and yes, I am aware that Canada is not perfect. But after having lived in both countries I do believe that the Canadian system of government, with all of its flaws, works better than does that of the U.S.
@foxylady: Loved your comment “The IRS is looking more like the Wizard of Oz every day, a loud clamoring sideshow run by a small blustery figure hiding behind a curtain to conceal the fact that smoke and noise are all he’s really got.”
@monalisa: Apparently there is no problem entering the U.S. after renouncing. I have heard that the IRS is completely overwhelmed with all the reporting, the law-changing, the searches and the disclosures. Apparently they have a real mess. As far as I can tell from my friends who travel back and forth to the States, there still is no coordination between the border control and the IRS. But I wouldn’t be surprised if it weren’t coming, with the zeal they are showing.
@geez: an acquaintance of mine was reminded, upon renouncing, that she could no longer call herself “American.” She retorted to the official: “I will always be American. I was born there, grew up there, it is my homeland and my culture. I speak the language. I simply do not have a U.S. passport anymore.”
To everyone: I’ve tried many different tactics to try and get erudite, well-travelled and well-read people Stateside interested in our dilemma. They respond, “Yes,but it is such a small problem.” Of course, when you look at the mess the U.S. is in, our problem is small indeed.
Even the U.S. Ambassador here in Switzerland is helpless to get anyone in Washington interested. When he brings up the subject there they just kind of shrug their shoulders and look puzzled. Doesn’t everyone have to pay taxes? So what’s the big deal?
So no, I don’t see any changes coming soon. We are seen as “fat cats” (where they undoubtedly got the idea for FATCA) who are spoiled whiners. Even though they themselves are drowning themselves in the tax code. Said recently U.S. Representative Rob Portman (R-OH) – “The income tax code and its associated regulations contain almost 5.6 million words — seven times as many words as the Bible. Taxpayers now spend about 5.4 billion hours a year trying to comply with 2,500 pages of tax laws….” As dysfunctional as the U.S. government is today, it will take nothing less than a major disaster for them to chuck it all and start out afresh.
So, OK, you have some reporting and so on to do before you can renunciate. Get a good international tax lawyer and get it over with. Because life won’t get any easier, on the contrary. One day you will start receiving your state pension fund. The IRS considers this taxable income, too. You may be getting better off, with time, after the kids leave. You might do well on the stock market. If you are married and your name is on your joint accounts or on your house, the IRS wants its fair share. And even if you think you have protected yourself by taking your name all of your assets and having a little bank account that never goes over $10,000, your may survive your spouse…then what? Another alternative is to give everything you own to your kids and put a clause in that they will let you live in your own home and let you have an allowance. But I find this latter demeaning and infuriating.
So I really see no viable alternative. Makes me mad as all get out, to put it mildy, but there you have it.
I think one telling difference between the US and China is that when Canada’s prime minister visited China last week it was front page news for three straight days on China Daily. When has a Canadian prime ministerial visit to US ever gotten that type of attention. I do think China is at this point in time is much more worldly than the US in terms of trying to seek out international contact as a form of competitive advantage.
@avowd- giving it all to your kids won’t help either because they are considered to be American citizens which I believe means that they would incur inheritance taxes if the inheritance is above a certain dollar amount.
@recal: I have a very good lawyer friend here who has done this however to protect his wife. It is some kind of trust that goes in effect should he pass away before she does. I assume that for now, everything is in his name, and he does not have U.S. citizenship. Would have to re-read about how it goes for Americans to inherit from a non-American to give you the facts on that.
@Everyone
One thing that I think should be mentioned especially with inheiritance tax issues is under the US Canada Double Tax Treaty Canada will not collect on behalf on US on its Canadian citizens nor does the US have the ability to go into a Canadian court to collect a judgement.
I’m confident most of us commenting here are in this for the long haul, working for necessary change, not only for ourselves but for our fellow US persons in whatever country and for those who are “Accidental Americans” without choice. Continued education, awareness, making our government representatives accountable and mutual support we can give and receive here will help move our objectives forward.
Thank you, usxcanada, for articulating what I think most of us feel at this moment about the importance of what we are creating.
@ Victoria
Welcome back, as always a superbly written, balanced, rational and moving presentation of a decision that is facing so many American expats.
My decision when I came to Canada in 1969 was much simpler, in that the US wanted me to go kill or be killed by southeast Asian peasants who had never done anything nor posed any credible threat to me, my family, my community, or indeed my then-country. After six years in Canada I fell in love with my new country, and becoming Canadian, relinquishing (I used the word RENOUNCE in my letter to Kissinger but what the hell) my US citizenship and getting my CLN in 1976 was the easiest, simplest, happiest decision of my life. No regrets, no hesitation.
But I understand and respect the conflicting emotions many feel, like you.
I have looked into the tax question above. Generally, (for a U.S. citizen) there is no tax on receipt of a foreign gift from a non-U.S. citizen. That is surely the reason my friends did it this way.
When an American inherits from a non-U.S. citizen, there is generally no tax. So most likely my friends put their entire estate in the (non-U.S.) husband’s name, and should the American spouse survive him, everything will go to their children, with the clause that she can live in the house and has specific allowances.
@everyone, Re inheritance taxes: As far as I know there is no Federal Inheritance tax in the US. That is persons are not taxed on money they inherit. There are, howver, estate taxes on the value of the estate before it is distributed to the heirs. There is also a gift tax in the US if you make a gift of money or property to someone else, It is the giver that is taxed, not the recipient. There are limits on the amount you can give tax free above which the giver must pay a tax.
I was trying to think of all American “things” Canada has that an “American” would conceivably miss. There actually not as many as one would think pretty much all of the big American retails chains have or are in the process of setting up a presence is Canada. Even Obama’s favorite Hamburger joint Five Guys now has 30 Canadian locations. We get American network TV although not the US Superbowl commercials. I find the big Bass Pro Shop in Vaughan Ontario to be one of the more amusing pieces of Americana transplanted to Canada. The most interesting aspect is big patriotic Canadian flag in front of store(The US Bass locations all have a big “patriotic” American flag).
“There is no such thing as part freedom.”
– Nelson Mandela
“Everyone who wills can hear the inner voice. It is within everyone.”
– Mahatma Gandhi
One emotional difference I had, different from many people who are choosing to shed their US citizenship now because new US policies are making life untenable, is that for me, when I made the decision to give up my citizenship several decades ago, there was no negative (or push) factor in my decision. I just wanted to be Canadian and nothing else. I had no regrets at all — I knew, from the day I applied for permanent resident status, that a few years down the road I was going to basically “transfer” my citizenship because I like, for me personally, the complete commitment and sense of belonging that I feel with having only one citizenship.
So, I made an active positive choice. I didn’t feel the US was pushing me out. I didn’t feel that US policy was forcing me into a tough decision I didn’t want to make. Therefore, I lived decades as a non-USCitizen with not a nanogram of regret and with positive feelings towards the US.
Now, we old-timers have to relinquish again. But that’s of course, an easy decision because I already did it once in that different era.
Now, the US is dumping on anyone who was born there and moved away, and the only US government official I’ve had any contact with was rude to an amazing degree, which I’ve never seen anything remotely resembling in thousands of cases over decades of working with Canadian government departments and tribunals.
So, of course, still not a nanogram of regret about relinquishing my US citizenship. But those 40 years of positive feeleings towards the US are obviously gone, and that’s sad. I don’t know if I’ll even actually ever go to the US again. Why? Anger–No. Economic boycott–No. It’s more basic than that–I think of terrific places I loved visiting in the US and places I’ve always wanted to go — really neat places, but they’re in the US and, after all this, I can’t see me actually enjoying being there.
In spite of everything, I believe I am going to try to keep my citizenship. I have no children and can thus afford to pay the accountant to stay compliant. I’m bitterly disappointed about all this but would feel even more bitter to have to burn my bridges. I am probably more than halfway through my life so it’s just one of those things…money’s not everything anyhow. I can’t take it with me after I die…If I were a lot younger, might have felt differently though.
Just wanted to say though that I really appreciate peoples’ sympathetic comments.
Of course, I realize I may eventually change my mind and join the renunciations but am going to try to stay compliant for now. I wish everybody the best of luck with whatever they decide to do!!