I have not written much in the past week or so and that was deliberate on my part. I decided to spend more time listening and reading and less on talking and writing. When I first came to Isaac Brock I was hopping mad and ready to fight. I’m still not particularly happy about the situation we all find ourselves in right now but, with a little distance, my thoughts are becoming much clearer. Just for the hell of it and because I know there are people out there thinking this through as well, I thought I’d share how my thoughts have evolved over the last month or so.
I’ve never hidden the fact that I wanted to stay a U.S. citizen and when I came in here renouncing or relinquishing was not at all an option I was ready to consider. So, why am I considering it now? There are two dimensions to this decision – let’s call them “push” and “pull.” Let’s start with the “pull”.
The “pull” is simply the fact that I love where I live. I love France. It’s like a marriage which has had its ups and downs over the years but its a rock solid long-term commitment based on many years of living together and clearly understanding each other’s faults, foibles and odd habits. If I ever left permanently I think it would rip me apart. I just don’t know what I would do without my friends, my colleagues, my church, my confessor, my family and my community here. In addition all my patrimoine is here and I am happy to pay taxes on it because civilization and services have a price which I am more than willing to pay to the French government because I find the French public sector to be humane, efficient and, oddly enough, very customer-oriented. So I decided to ask for citizenship so I can make my commitment to this country concrete and so I can participate in the last area not open to me as a resident: political life. France has one of the most amazing and vibrant democracies around. The political scene really moves and shakes though it has the capacity to make even the mighty De Gaulle throw up his hands in despair. I was also deeply impressed by how the French diaspora has representation in the Senate. These people are not afraid of their expatriates and are quite willing to have their participation in home country politics. So, in short, the “pull” here is France itself.
On the other side of all this is the “push.” To be very clear, it is NOT about taxes. I do not mind paying one whit for civilization and services. What I object to is the complete lack of services for Americans abroad and being castrated when it comes to participating fully in American political life. Living abroad we simply do not have effective representation in the U.S. and we can only stand by helplessly as laws are passed that effect us without anyone in the home country so much as nodding in our direction.
So between the “push” and the “pull” I think you can start to see a theme here. I want to be French because I want to be part of a democratic nation-state that I have a long relationship with and whose values I would be willing to fight and perhaps die for regardless of where I happen to be living. If I decide to give up my U.S. citizenship it will be because I have seen a better world and that I see that what the U.S. has to offer its citizens abroad is (and I think will be for a long time) limited to a kind of second-class citizenship where we can be manipulated, taxed and otherwise abused without much say and almost no recourse. After much reading and listening to all of you here and also the comments of Americans in the homeland, I am coming to believe that my US passport represents a citizenship that is inferior to what people in the U.S. homeland have and overall vastly inferior to what French people have everywhere. In both my head and in my heart, any decision I make really comes down to whether or not I think this will change. These days I’m beginning to believe that my hopes have been wildly unrealistic and that the U.S. will never change (under Obama or anyone else). Under those circumstances (which I cannot change and have no control over) I would be much happier and much more fulfilled as a full citizen in France as opposed to being a second-class citizen of the U.S.
@monalisa1776- I wish you well. Just know that your fidelity will never be reciprocated. You will always only be a TIN for the U.S. government.
@Recal, I realize that.
@Don – you said, “I think that with time most people simply begin to identify more with where their lives are currently than where they came from.” That statement really made me stop and reflect. Yes, I think your statement is accurate. However, I can also see around me other migrants or second-generation French citizens who are also diasporans and yet very strongly attached to their (or their parent’s) country of origin. Much of that stems, I think, from organization and recognition from the home country that Americans diasporans lack. The Portuguese in France, for example, have a truly extraordinary network – they even work with the public school system here to provide language classes for their children. The ties remain because the will and institutions to maintain them exists. The US government has never made a similar effort.
On the other side I think we have to consider the situation in the US homeland. Have the US culture wars taken their toll? So much divisiveness over Red State and Blue State, so many comments in the media about “Real Americans” versus I’m not sure what. I come from Seattle and to be honest that is where my roots really are. Texas could be on the far side of the moon as far as I’m concerned. When I was growing up even California was a bit suspect. I think a common American cultural identity has grown much weaker in the past 20 years or so. Regional differences that were strong when I was growing up are even stronger now. Contempt for institutions at the Federal level like the presidency and Congress are at an all time high. And finally all those things that the US used to export that were symbols of America abroad have been detached from America itself. It used to matter that Coca-Cola was American. No longer. It’s just another soft drink among many other soft drinks on the store shelf which might be local or imported. I remember a conversation I had with the Frenchlings a few years ago. We were going to visit my brother in Sacramento and I told the girls that if they were good I might take them to Disneyland. The looked at me as if I was an idiot – Disney is right next door, they said (just outside Paris in fact). When I replied that there was one in California, they were very surprised. “You mean, Mom, that Americans have Disney too?”
@Victoria: That is hilarious about Disney. Int’g note you make on used-to-be so quintessential products like Coca-Cola. I hadn’t thought of that, but it is entirely true. As far as I can tell from across the ocean (I haven’t been back to the States in ten years), Americans are more insular than ever. And as far as getting more and more stuck to their own kind, I remember well my brother-in-law’s words, ten years ago in Baton Rouge, when I got tired of watching the sensational Fox “news” and asked if we could get CNN, his reply was, “You mean the Communist News Network?” And the BBC was “Baghdad Broadcasting Corporation”. To people in the States who have never been abroad, Europe is socialist and therefore practically communist, though they really don’t have an inkling how either system functions really. All they know is, either one is EVIL.
“And as far as getting more and more stuck to their own kind, I remember well my brother-in-law’s words, ten years ago in Baton Rouge, when I got tired of watching the sensational Fox “news” and asked if we could get CNN, his reply was, “You mean the Communist News Network?” And the BBC was “Baghdad Broadcasting Corporation”. To people in the States who have never been abroad, Europe is socialist and therefore practically communist, though they really don’t have an inkling how either system functions really. All they know is, either one is EVIL.”
@avowed – Haha 🙂 So typically American! I’m also from that state and I agree completely with your term “insular”. In my case, after having lived in Europe for a while, when I went back to the US, my own sister started calling me “Mr. Wordly”, sarcastically of course. When I dated American women, I could never talk about adventures in other countries because I just got blank stares. Geography and world events were never topics of discussion with work colleagues. This is when I had a feeling that I had to go BACK overseas to get the life that I wanted.
@ALL – ^^^ The emotion from above, remembering my childhood was a first and a last. When I read the requirements of the FATCA, whatever positive thought I had about the US went out the door.
@Everyone
Your stories here provide support and can so resonate with them as all of the feelings you have provided have gone through my head.
I am a southern rebel by birth and was proud of it and people were shocked when I moved out of the country 25 years ago supposedly for 2 years to see “the world”. I probably was the typical “American” with pushy views and I thought it was too socialist here (Canada). But as years went by and I lived here and got to travel to Europe …I began to understand why people hated us abroad as we were so ignorant about the rest of the world.
I have lived here 25 years (1/2 my life) and been a citizen for 20. I still value my roots, but this situation has turned my life upside down and I have no trust in the current U.S. – it isn’t the country I was born in. The politics are crazy, the banking disaster and things that are allowed to go on – not the country I was proud to call home. I find now even my family members (right wingers) think I have lost my brain and been turned into a socialist where I believe I found my brain. I am allowed to think for myself versus what is the “country line” this week. I am appalled at the U.S. soldiers that urinated on dead captives whether terrorists or not and have friends and family who think that is just great – but when that happens to them….watch out – they want to go get them. I am trying to figure out why anyone cares if people are gay, straight or whatever and why this is a topic for a Presidential race when the country has financial issues and gas is $4. Who or what people do in the privacy of their own home trumps people losing their homes and unemployment being through the roof?….I think not.
In Canada, since Canadian – the Canadian government will not collect any Taxes owed to U.S. even if they give in to the reporting. I want to renounce, but am told I will have file and pay up what I owe for over the last 6-8 years and am not ensured penalty fines won’t be imposed – so have avoided this. This is the first I have heard of relinquish – so I will continue to read more on this – but I have heard it may not help me with being able to travel to the U.S. as it doesn’t get me out of tax obligations. The only reason for me to consider doing anything is the ability to travel back home but to be honest with kids in University and the economy and both my husband/myself salaries not being what they are when they will go back and tax – I don’t have the money to pay even if I thought it was the right thing to do which I don’t. I get zero benefit from the U.S., I don’t vote there, I haven’t held nor wanted to hold a U.S. passport since I was in my 20’s – so I have a hard time thinking about coughing up money and paying fines for something I had no idea I needed to file for as I was lead to believe when I pledged to the Queen in 1993 – I gave up Bill Clinton.
So for those that have relinquished or renounced, was it the country your are in agreeing to garnish taxes because they are bullied into reporting, the ability to not go back home, the bank threatening to report…etc?
I am sitting tight, listening, watching and trying to make a smart informed decision. The reason I haven’t sought a lawyer is unless I want to comply and agree to pay the tax and penalties that I fear – do I need to pay another person as well. My accountant here told me my options were to file a year and see what happens or do nothing and know I cannot go back home as I would be considered a criminal because not filing is a crime. The first option is scary because if I comply – that is saying I agree that I am still American. I don’t – but if there is the option to relinquish or renounce and be rid of the burden and not have to win Lotto 649 to pay (oops they would want that too) – I feel stuck. I know I am not a criminal but the thought that a government can consider I am because they have decided to go after people they forgot about – it still bothers me. I saw the post about the Representatives and Congressmen not knowing this exists………NOT surprised in the Least. No one I know in the states knew about it and most think I am now paranoid along with being a Canadian socialist.
Any advice from those been there and bough the T-shirt and have renounced/relinquished and what happened about taxes owed if they existed? How far do they “really” go back?
1. cash into credit union
2. do not visit USA
3. end of story.
Stop thinking about it.
To my knowledge, not filing a return is only a crime if taxes are owed and if it is done with criminal intent. But how does the IRS even know if you owe anything? How can they even know whether you made anything if it was earned in Canada?
Absolutely!
@petros- that was the old rule. According to Roy Berg the new rule is that there is a 10,000 fine for failure to file. If your income is under the reporting minimum, or if it is non taxable then you don’t have to file.
Who do they apply the fine to? People who write to them and say, “I’m required to file but I am not going to”?
Here are a few of the many references you can find on the internet about “failure to file” IRS penalties for US tax returns and FBAR reports.
The seemingly reasonable “I never knew I was supposed to” reason is no assurance that, if you failed to file the IRS will let you off the hook, as many have discovered when they found out they were requried to do so and tried to make things right. So whatever you do, do it with your eyes opened widely.
I forgot to paste the references. Here they are:
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=205326,00.html
http://www.backtaxeshelp.com/faq/failure-to-file-penalty.html.
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=250788,00.html.
You will find many more on the Internet.
Well, I wanted to make it clear that failure to file is a crime only under very serious circumstances usually where the person owes a lot of money. The hundreds of thousands of so-called Americans in Canada who didn’t file because of ignorance probably won’t be charged with a crime, but they may be fined–perhaps if they know that you were supposed to file and you didn’t. But then for them to actually arrest you at the border, that takes a serious step of actually charging you with a felony (at least to my knowledge it does). Or will they arrest you over $10,000 dollar late filing penalty? I doubt it. But perhaps that is coming. But then I keep saying, the border enforcement of IRS rules is another sign that the United States is becoming a police state.
@petros- a country that imprisons more people than does another country, China, that is three times its size is already a police state. What is terrible to see is how the tax code is increasingly being used as a means of getting around the Constitution.
@Proud Canadian
Welcome to this site. Try to read the many different threads on the site. There are many of us here, who became Canadians many, many years ago (in my case 40 years ago) and have made the decision at least for now, to not file with the IRS. I and I know others here, believe we ‘relinquished’ our U.S. citizenship when we became Canadians. Should you choose at this time to file with the IRS, you would be giving up the right to claim relinquishment. So as I said, read as much as you can and try to make an informed decision for yourself.
And I agree with you, relatives south of the border, “just don’t get it” – they are ‘inward’ thinking, consider themselves ‘worldly’ but truly are not.
Under US tax law, if you live and work abroad but because of the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion and the fact that you can utilize foreign tax credits paid on income that is taxable both in the US and the foreign country, you may end up owing zero to the IRS. Nevertheless, in order to claim the FEIE and the foreign tax credits you are still required to submit a US tax return to substantiate that you owe nothing. Although it may not make sense, that’s the law.
The law in the USA. We live in Canada.
@Joseph, Unfortunately if you are a US citizen, no matter where you live US law subjects you to US income tax on your world wide income. It is an abominable law. I don’t like it any more than you do, but at the present time, if and until that law is changed to exclude US citizens living outside of the US, the only way to get out from under this extra-terrirorial US tax obligation is to renounce US citizenship, which is precisely what a growing number are doing.