I found this site the other day and I thought it was very interesting. We know that the American Diaspora stands at about 6 million right now but what will it look like in the future?
This fellow and his organization (Americawave) think it will grow. He’s done some interesting studies with MPI (Migration Policy Institute). Here are some of his results: Relocation Statistics. He also produced this video that he posted on Youtube:
On his site there is also an article he wrote for Barron’s entitled The Great Escape. It’s less about sheer numbers and more about the kind of person who is considering relocating: young, educated, just starting a career, the adventurers and entrepreneurial types.
I had an email exchange with him and asked him about the impact of citizenship-based taxation on this group of potential migrants and he replied that he didn’t think anything was going to stop these young folks from heading out into the world. I think he’s absolutely right. 🙂
This guy nailed me to a T. But actually, I left in 2006 when I saw things getting worse. What I mean by “getting worse” is ever increasing laws, the dollar losing a lot of value, the US changing the rules of the game anytime they want, and corruption at high levels between government and industry.
Since 2006, has the situation in the US improved or gotten worse? I think worse. Now, six years later, I’m looking around and seeing what US citizenship is really worth:
1) A lifelone “duty” to file a tax return, even though you always pay your taxes where you live that are higher than the US;
2) The INABILITY to open bank account overseas because you were born in the US;
3) The INABILITY to open a US bank account with an overseas address;
4) Being called a “tax cheat” even though you don’t live there and already pay more taxes where you live;
5) Being connected through nationality to a massive group of “mainlanders” who think you are living on the beach sipping cokes.
And here is the benefit of having US Citizenship
1) You can go back to the US anytime you want to. (Nevermind you that almost anyone can. They just get a tourist visa and go.)
hmm.. 5:1. Not a good argument for wanting to be a US Citizen.
The guy in the video is correct; nothing will stop them, unless they are prevented from being able to integrate into the societies where they now live.
The results don’t surprise me. Younger people have less to tie them down and will generally be willing to take more risks and explore the world. Couple that with a terrible economy and they may even want to relocate to emerging economies like the BRIC countries. I left the US in early 2005, after being laid off from my job. It was kind of a stroke of luck though, because this came just after obtaining my bachelor’s degree and all possibilities were open to me. Of course if I knew then what I know now, I would have renounced my US citizenship as soon as I received my Canadian one. Hindsight is always 20/20.
Ditto in my situation. I was eligible for citizenship after 1 year, but I could do almost everything, so I didn’t care about it.
My bet is that these people will go to foreign countries, live for some years, and then discover these US rules and say WTF!? and then renounce. This is basically the odyssey that I made.
@geeeez, @zucchero And what about me? I moved to Canada in 1986, married a Canadian in 1989, went to Europe, came back in 1994, landed for the first time only in 1996; took citizenship in 2011! How could I know that American citizenship would become so toxic? How could anyone? Yet Roger Conklin knew.
“Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”
– Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
@Cato – Great quotation. One of the reasons we’ve never owned our own home is that we like the freedom to pack up and go.
@geeeez – Love your arguments. Yes, I think that is a very fair way of looking at it.
Interesting. Thanks for pointing this survey out. I think I will explore more, and maybe I can find the answers to the questions I have like…
What is the possible knowledge that these folks have about the complications they will run into later. IE, are they heading out into the world full of optimism as they see the world as a larger playing field to find good job opportunities?
Do they have a fully developed understanding of the compliance costs and risks they will be assuming under the current Citizenship tax model and IRS jihad that will be directed at them should they fail?
If they had full disclosure and information, might it effect their decision? Was any survey work done after such knowledge was imparted?
Well, as we know, youth are not very good at assessing the implication of their decisions, so he may be right, that Citizenship taxation would not stop them. However, what will the impact be later when they run into the wall of non compliance? That is the question.
This problem of lack of knowledge is shown in the type of reporting that gets done on Overseas Opportunities, like this story on Market place last year…
Things to consider before launching a career abroad
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/things-consider-launching-career-abroad
No mention of the tax consequences or complications!!
The warnings had to be placed in the comments.
So, they have a desire to launch overseas now, but they may be returning later chastened by penalties, or renouncing when they later discover what is expected of them. Time will tell.
@ Victoria
If myself, a mother born in US, lived there till 16 but….when I was 14 and 15, I visited my canadian grandparents for both summer vacations, so 3 months each each, PLUS 2 weeks each year for Christmas Vacation…so we are at 7 months I was out of the country. Could I argue this for not being physically present in the US to pass along citizenship to my poor kids…only issues is, if ever asked to prove it I dont know how I could….this is 16 years ago and I sure as heck never thought I would need to keep proof of those trips. Grandparents are deceased as well….any thoughts on this? The terms on the US Citizenship sites indicate 2 years of PHYSICAL PRESENCE in the us after age 14.
@Just Me – yes, I had similar questions which is why I sent him a quick note. It would be very interesting to explore further. The guy who runs the organization is a longtime resident of Panama and a very very nice fellow. 🙂
@Wowthissucks – that is a very good question. Were your children born outside the U.S.? If you are a woman, married and American then, in principle, jus sanguinis law applies and the children are Americans as well. A different rule applies if you are not married and are male. All these are trumped if the children are born in the US in which case jus soli kicks in and they are Americans regardless of the citizenship of the parents. Be warned, I am not an authority on U.S. citizenship laws but it’s a subject I’m very interested in.
@Victoria
No, I am female….My kids were both born in Canada, never registered in US (Didnt think they were US, and still dont)
My concern is, I was in US till 16 (In school system) But the law indicates physically present for 2 years past age of 14….techincally I wasnt as I was out for 7 months total for those two years. I would hope that would excempt my poor kids from this nightmare… I just dont know how to prove it if I ever did have to. Perpahs just not worrying about it might help too, I just want to protect them all I can. Innocent victms!
I do think that more and more young people will emigrate or even move abroad on a short term basis. I think that they will all be in for a shock though when they see all the problems that they face by holding US citizenship whilst abroad, yet they will be stuck for years until they can naturalise in another country.
I would seriously doubt that most would be willing to renounce and become stateless…Actually, I bet that the majority will become so annoyed with how hard it is to live as US citizen abroad that they will just pack their bags and go back unfortunately.
@Don, there are other factors for going back. Some of them can’t hack it, or cultural things get under their skin. For people that think for one second that they may not like it where they live, they will NEVER go stateless, and they shouldn’t really.
I’m just crazy enough to do it because I have a little boy and Brazil wouldn’t deport me back to America because my little boy is protected under the Brazilian constitution. I also respect the laws here because I wouldn’t want to be the 1st example 🙂
Honestly, if I had the time, I would get a law degree here. I looked for lawyers that handle citizenship and I didn’t find any. I called a few, but no luck. If someone wanted to get citizenship here, one can get into more countries than say, a Panamanian visa. And a Brazilian citizen can get live in Portugal and get Portuguese (EU) citizenship if they want to. I think taking on American clients is a business that’s only going to get better!!
@geeez – I’m no expert but I think you’re right. Some leave to take a chance at a great opportunity (Infosys?) but others are (and I just love this phrase) “pulling a geographic.” It means changing locales in the hopes of leaving behind one’s problems and discontents. Sometimes this works out and sometimes it doesn’t. It’s hard to integrate. It’s work. It’s painful (cultures mostly operate on a negative feedback system – when you’re right no one notices but when you get it wrong you get whapped – sometimes quite violently.) It’s psychologically destabilizing. I tell my friends that nothing that I have ever experienced humbled me in the way moving to France (and later Japan) did.
My motto is (and your mileage may certainly vary on this)
“Love where you’re from but bloom where you’re planted.”
Oh, and now my government has decided to pour Roundup on me.
“Persecution readily knits friendship between its victims.”
– Ralph Waldo Emerson
@Victoria, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the documented “stages” that people go through when they live abroad, but I think I’m going into a different, not so well-documented stage: TOTAL ASSIMILATION. Until now, for the 10 years I have lived overseas, I considered myself to be a foreigner whereever I lived. I did many things the “American” way (being direct to the point / if something is wrong, just saying it’s wrong). Maybe in some cases, I was shooting myself in the foot because some things aren’t the same as they are in America.
Now that I don’t see much of a future in having a US passport living overseas, I’ve started doing things exactly the same way that other people here do them here. I’m interacting with people in a non-American way. In the past, I almost loathed to act / behave in certain ways because I didn’t think it “fit” me as an American. But since I started interacting with people like everyone else here, I feel a huge relief, as if someone took off a 500 lb weight off my back. It’s pretty clear to me now, America is the 500 lb weight!
Getting the paperwork ready to request citizenship here, and knowing that I will renounce US citizenship is working wonders for me. I don’t think that the US has any idea of the stress their laws create for people living overseas. I don’t have FBAR or tax issues, but I can imagine that for the people that do, it must be a real nightmare. I really believe that the US doesn’t deserve to have people like us as citizens. Their loss!
“Upper classes are a nation’s past; the middle class is its future.”
– Ayn Rand
The bulk of the American Diaspora is middle class.
@geeeez – don’t know the stages but I did try to write about what I was experiencing. You might find these interesting:
Immigrant rage; http://thefranco-americanflophouse.blogspot.com/2011/01/immigrant-rage.html
Alien: http://thefranco-americanflophouse.blogspot.com/2011/01/alien.html
@Cato there is a quotation from C. Geertz in the second that you might like. One of my favorites from The Interpretation of Cultures.
@Victoria,
An interesting piece and quote at the end about going native. Thanks for sharing.
I have lived outside the states for 20 years. US Homelanders don’t like it, whenever I speak in their presence to my wife in the local lingo. They look at me as if I am some kind of traitor or heretic.
I think the issue is mainly jealousy on their part combined with a high degree of jingoism.
@geeeez
What do you mean that a Brazilian citizen can live in Portugal? Is there some sort of bilateral agreement? That would be very unusual if there were, since almost every EU country does not give any special status to former colonies.
Spain does allow those from Latin America to naturalise after 2 years and not have to renounce their citizenship (something that I as an Italian could not benefit from: I would have to live 10 years in Spain and renounce citizenship first). The UK allows Commonwealth citizens to vote in UK elections. I don’t know the policies of other countries, but these are just policies that make it easier to integrate after arrival: they do not have anything in place to facilitate migration.
The nickname of the EU immigration system is “Fortress Europe” since its so hard to move here legally, which is why I find what you mentioned with Brazil to be really strange. Regardless, I doubt that many are taking advantage of such a deal even if it did exist: everyone that I know in Portugal has already moved to Brazil or is planning to move there. Some are even moving to former colonies in Africa to get out of Portugal. Its a really bad situation there now unfortunately.
@Don, your post sent me on a quest to find those old references. There is the “CONVENÇÕES SOBRE IGUALDADE DE DIREITOS E DEVERES ENTRE BRASILEIROS E PORTUGUESES ” I think I was reading too literally into this.
Technically, there are these laws that call for reciprocity, but they technically favour the Portuguese who want to come to Brazil more. I found some sites that say that it is easy to immigrate to Portugal with a work visa. The key is, you must have a contract in hand. Hopefully I can find something that is better more concrete than just “word of mouth” stuff on the internet.
On the Portuguese consulate’s website, their investor visa “seems” easy to get, even easier than an investor visa in Brazil. Portugal must be desperate for people to start businesses there. HOWEVER, I’m noticing that ANYONE can do this, independent of nationality. But I guess the question is, is Portugal a country that is worth immigrating to?
Fortress Europe? Ha! Maybe if it is made of mud! 🙂 Immigrating to Europe is not THAT hard. It’s not a cake-walk, but if someone REALLY wants to do it, they can. I’m 34 and I got my life set in Brazil, so I wouldn’t do it. But had someone challenged me 10 years ago, I’d be at least a resident today.
Spain looks better. Maybe I need to pay a firm in Argentina to get citizenship there. 🙂 There are businesses set up on Argentina that show a timeline to get citizenship and everything, like: http://www.argentinaresidency.com/services/argentina-citizenship-passports.htm
^^ These guys are very smart!
References:
http://www.lawrei.eu/mranewsletter/?p=5038
http://thelisbongiraffe.typepad.com/diario_de_lisboa/2004/12/o_estatuto_da_i.html
http://www.soleis.adv.br/igualdadedireitosportugueses.htm
http://www.embaixadadeportugal.org.br/assuconsul/faq-visto.php
(In the first reference, the person mentions the cost of living being WAAAAAAAY less in Portugal than Brazil. I have to agree; the cost of living in Brazil is crazy, mainly due to the taxes. That’s why I get offended easily when someone says I’m a “tax cheat”.)
@Don, this idea of citizenship, visas, and immigration is so interesting to me. My background is business admin and economics, so I think that COMPETITION is good, even regarding Human Capital. I dislike government intervention, especially when it creates a monopoly. That’s why I think that so many immigration restrictions are enacted to limit naturalisation, alll over the world, because most population groups within a “national territory” don’t want competition from outsiders.
I also like Law a lot. My wife has an undergrad degree and masters in Law here, but I tell her WHY, HOW, and WHEN to sue someone. I’m not a card-carrying lawyer, but I still act in the profession indirectly for my own reasons, mostly business.
I’m really starting to post a lot on the internet about the US tax laws, FATCA, and FBAR. Most of my extended family is shocked and had no idea that this was happening. Others talk about the deteriorating situation in America. I find it amazing these FATCA laws are proposed right before a time of economic downturn. This is why we can never trust politicians. The majority are up to no good.
Ciao.
For anyone in the US who may be reading this, get educated! Learn multiple langages! Don’t let the US Government steal your life from you! Go to http://fsi-language-courses.org/Content.php – download the courses and learn!! Then all you have to do is practice a lot, which you can do on the internet, or by travelling to a country. .
I think geeeez is right and Europe is not as hard as folks think to get into. It’s just a question of finding the right method. Ireland takes those of Irish descent, Portugal and Spain give preferences to Ibero Americans. There is one country in Eastern Europe that has a procedure for kids who were adopted and sent to the West – these kids can grow up and go back to the home country and reclaim their birthright. When you consider that the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are European settler colonies, a large number of citizens there can probably find a close European ancestor or two. And once a citizen of any EU member-state then you are an EU citizen with rights in 26 other countries.
For those who don’t have a blood or family link, there is the new EU Blue card (lot about it on the Flophouse) and now the EU has voted a single-permit directive to standardize immigration procedures in the EU.
It never fails to amuse me however that most Europeans have no idea what is going on at the EU level. The reaction of my friends here to the Blue Card for example: “Whose stupid idea was that?”
🙂
@Victoria, when I was looking for naturalisation lawyers in Brazil, all I could find were for lawyers to help Brazilians get Italian citizenship. There are millions of Italian descendants in Brazil. I have at least 2 neighbors within 50 meters of me that have Italian citizenship. But of course, they continute to live here because their lives are here, and not in Italy.
I wish all countries would reform this area of immigration. Countries need productive people, especially people who can create jobs, but most of the investment minimums are too high. The best way to do would be to grant someone a residency visa, which would allow them to study the market carfefully. Then when they find something, they can open the business.
But most of the time, countries, including Brazil, only grant residency after the business is formed, and usually large amounts of money have been spent. From a business perspective, that’s quite risky since an “investor” probably doesn’t know the market very well since they can’t live in a country for very long without a visa. Catch 22.
I’m quite happy living in Brazil. I think of tons of opportunities every day**. But I wouldn’t mind having EU citizenship as well to be able to travel to the US visa free.
** To anyone reading this, I DO NOT recommend thinking Brazil is the land of milk and honey. Unless you speak Portuguese fluently and know the culture very well, you will most likely get screwed by everyone you do business with.
@geeez & Victoria
I think it depends greatly on which country you are talking about in terms of how hard it is to immigrate here. Unless you are an engineer or a medical professional, I think that several countries probably won’t take you at all (like Italy or Germany), not even to teach English since Brits or Irish tend to be preferred (especially in Western Europe). The UK and Ireland have some of the loosest immigration policies around, and I don’t count countries’ policies with regards to granting citizenship to the diaspora as a sign of how welcoming they are to immigrants in general. Usually the countries with diaspora-friendly citizenship laws (Germany, Italy, Spain, Greece, etc) tend to be the ones that are the hardest for others to immigrate to.
The only US citizens that I know in Europe moved here through studying in the UK, moved here decades ago or teach English in Eastern Europe. I don’t think that the political climate will be positive for new immigrants here or to allow the blue card scheme to really take off for at least a decade or more.