I was asked to move this post here. It concerns my visit to the U.S. Consulate in Halifax to inform them that my wife and I had relinquished in 1973.
Hi everybody,
I posted this to the forum yesterday:
Just got home from Halifax and our visit to the U.S. Consulate. Not sure what I expected but it was fairly painless with a couple of unexpected twists.
First of all the consulate is a tiny suite of offices in an office tower. You get buzzed in by the receptionist/telephone operator/security guard. That gets you into a very small space where you have to put all metal objects (including your belt) into an equally small tray and then step through the metal detector. Then you step into a room the size of a large bedroom with about twenty plastic chairs screwed to the floor and you sit. This waiting room is also the interview room – there are wickets around one side (nobody at them at all – staff or clients.)
My appointment was for 9:30 and I arrived at 9:00 and they took me at 9:05. I spoke to a clerk who asked the purpose of my appointment and I said I wanted to inform them that I had expatriated in 1973. She was having none of that. She said she didn’t mean to imply that I was lying but they had a lot of people recently claiming this(!) so I had to have all the forms filled out as though I were relinquishing today. I thought this might be the case so I had already filled out these forms. She then asked if the other person coming in this morning was my wife. I said it was and she told me to go get her and they’d process both of us at the same time. Her appointment was for 11:00 so this was good news for us.
I got my wife and returned. The same clerk asked us for documentation. She seemed to think I should have a form signed at my citizenship ceremony renouncing US citizenship. Not sure if I did that or not but her suggestion to apply for copies under Access of Information and make another appointment was not what I wanted and I looked quite distressed and told her I wasn’t coming back. Back to filling out forms as though relinquishing today.
She asked us for birth certificates, marriage certificate, driver’s licenses, citizenship certificates, landed immigrant cards, passports *and* any old passports we had to show how often we’d traveled into the U.S.!! I explained that we had only used passports in the past couple of years to enter the U.S. and that no border official in the U.S. had ever stamped our passports. I further explained that I didn’t get old copies of passports when I renewed. She was astounded at that news.
She also strongly recommended that we write up a page of “Why we relinquished” as mentioned at the bottom of 4081.
Reading this it makes her sound a lot worse than she was. Actually she was very polite and co-operative. I think she was just a bit stressed by the numbers relinquishing recently in Halifax.
In any case she took all the paperwork and said that normally there is a second appointment necessary but she would type everything up and we could get it all done today. Then she told us to go away for an hour and she would get it done up.
While we waited (eating breakfast) we wrote up the page she had urged as per 4081.
Returning an hour later we were told to wait for a consular official. This time it was a young man who started with: “This should be painless and very quick.” He went through the forms and we signed in front of him. He told us it was good to relinquish as opposed to renouncing because it was free and we agreed that was good. We asked about copies and as others have said were told it is policy not to give copies. We asked about wait time to get a CLN and he said that it used to be about a year but there had been so many recently that they were processing them more quickly(!) He said between 2 months and a year. I’m hoping for the 2 months but expecting closer to the year.
Left the office about 11:30 and drove back to N.B.
Overall, as I said, painless and cooperative. Now if they’ll just date it 1973.
@Johnnb
First…congratulations!
I am curious. Since you expatriated in ’73. What tax implications do you have…in other words did you have to file back returns for the last 6 years?.
I am surprised they did not question you on IRS compliance (or maybe they did?)
Also…how long did it take to get an appointment in Halifax?
Hi Mach7. Somebody said on this blog that State and Treasury are separate and I guess they are. Nothing was mentioned about taxes and no questions were asked.
I think we are ok on taxes. They were not our reason for expatriating in 1973 – opposition to U.S. policy in Viet Nam was. We filed all U.S. tax returns for all years including 1973 and then sent a cover letter stating that we no longer considered ourselves U.S. citizens with our 1973 return (wish we had sent that letter to State rather than the IRS!) We have not filed any U.S. tax returns since 1973 – a good thing as it might have damaged our claim to have taken out Canadian citizenship “with the intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship.”
The consulate in Halifax asked about *none* of this.
Halifax only makes appointments for Mondays and Fridays for “Notary Services.” It took a couple of emails to complain about no open appointment slots and then they opened some up. According to an email they open new slots on Fridays so we went to their web page on a friday in December and the first open slots were on 23 January so I guess it took about 5 weeks to get the appointment.
Thank you so much for this article! I obtained Canadian citizenship in 1971, have always assumed I lost my US citizenship in the process and have strongly considered following up with the consulate very soon. I appreciate this information very much.
Thanks John. I’ve been looking forward to your update.
They asked for landed immigrant card? What?!? Did you still have yours? After I became a Canadian citizen in 1973, I had no reason to keep it and have no idea what happened to it.
It sounds like things went relatively smoothly. I hope they will backdate for you. I will continue to follow that.
I have followed the excellent advice of Schubert on the Renounce or Relinquish thread and have submitted an Access to Information request to Citizenship and Immigration to obtain information from my citizenship file from when I became a citizen–including a copy of my signed oath or any other document which shows I renounced my American citizenship.
I also wrote a very lengthy letter to the Prime Minister yesterday with copies to three Cabinet Ministers, my MP and three other political parties. Our elected representatives need to take a strong and firm stand that Canadian financial institutions are expected to conform to Canadian Human Rights and privacy laws–and not to the draconian demands and laws of a foreign government. They also need to ensure rights of Canadian citizens are protected from this extraterritorial intrusion of the IRS into Canada. I will post the letter elsewhere later today
Congratulations. I hope you and your wife sleep better tonight. Thanks again for helping to lead the charge for Isaac Brock warriors in the War of 2012.
Yes. They asked for our landed immigrant cards. We had them (they had been in our family album as souvenirs!) You may want to hunt yours out as we had to produce them for the Canadian government when we applied for Old Age Security last year. We were told then that if we didn’t have them they would hold up our OAS applications until we got replacements – and they cost $100 each.
I also applied under the ATI early in December but haven’t heard back from them yet. Three months was mentioned elsewhere in a thread so I won’t sweat it until then.
We did sleep better last night. For better or worse it is done- at least until we get the CLN’s.
Johnnb, you mentioned that you brought along some filled out forms. What forms were they?
@johnnb
I am just wondering if the state department is going to accept your ’73 date of relinquishment.
The only flag I can see is in the paragraph to your initial post;
“I wanted to inform them that I had expatriated in 1973. She was having none of that. She said she didn’t mean to imply that I was lying but they had a lot of people recently claiming this(!) so I had to have all the forms filled out as though I were relinquishing today”.
I would think that they are going to accept your relinquishment as of “that” day in question, and before they process your CLN they are going to first make sure you are ‘compliant’ with the IRS.
If you haven’t filed a tax return since ’73…..i am wondering (and interested) if they will process your paperwork.
Keep us informed either way.
Congratulations. 2 months to a YEAR!! My goodness.. what’s next – 5 years!!?
I wish I could “relinquish” instead of renounce to save on that stupid fee, but I don’t have time to wait. I want to get out before everyone starts running to the door with the implementation of the FACTA!
@Hazy2: We filled out 4079 (determination of citizenship) and 4081 (consequences and ramifications) as well as the front of the info pack they sent us which was just general name and address stuff. We did not fill out 4080 which is for renunciation.
@Mach7: I think what she meant was that I still had to fill out 4079 I couldn’t just drop off a letter saying I had relinquished in 1973. The consular official said that if State saw everything on 4079 was true they would date the CLN 1973. I think they have to process the paperwork as is and if they contact Treasury then it is up to the IRS to see if they have issues. As a retired public school teacher who sent them notification when I took out Canadian citizenship I don’t think there will be any problems.
@ hazy: a couple of the forms are linked to in my post here.
April 7 visit, still no CLN. May be I should e-mail them and ask where it is? It hasn’t been year yet.
I found a list of forms here: http://www.expatinfodesk.com/expat-guide/relinquishing-citizenship/renunciating-your-us-passport/five-steps-to-renunciating-your-us-passport/
Thanks John for the heads up about landed immigrant card. I’m still stunned about that. I have amended my Access to Information request to CIC to include a copy of mine. I went through my personnel file at work last week seeking information, but landed immigrant is not there because I was already a Canadian citizen when I became an employee.
Weird to be talking about OAS–which is four years away for me. Yikes! I still think of myself as that young woman I was when I came to Canada.
I hope that the State Department is following this blog. I am very much struck by the tremendous joy and relief that people feel when they divest themselves of U.S. citizenship. For U.S. citizens living outside the United States, U.S. citizenship is the single biggest problem in their lives.
Last week I was talking to somebody in the U.S. He mentioned that his girlfriend was becoming a U.S. citizen that very day. They both felt pride.
As I have said before, acquiring U.S. citizenship is like acquiring a boat. The two happiest days are:
The day you get it and the day you get rid of it.
Those who became Canadian citizens in the 70s might find this post that I wrote to be of interest.
http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2011/11/13/expatriating-acts-the-status-of-your-u-s-citizenship/
@Blaze: I think they would have been fine if we couldn’t find our landed immigrant cards. They were just one more document to support our claims. OAS is less forgiving – you’ll need it then.
Johnbb: Thank you for detailing your visit — that was extremely useful information and it will make us think hard about doing the same thing. My wife is very very leery about fronting up to ANY US official, but it might be worth it if she can get a CLN backdated to 1974.
And yes, we too had to get a duplicate of our landed immigrant document from 1969 in order to qualify for OAS. The joke there is they actually approved the OAS applications about a month before the duplicate certificate arrived. At the time I thought we’d wasted the money; now I’m glad we did it.
I wonder if I can take the same approach with my green card. I destroyed/threw away that document shortly after arrival here in 1969, and the lawyer I consulted suggested that I can argue pretty strongly that I abandoned the green card and it no longer has any validity. Probably best not to bring it up.
Thanks very much for this very informative post, John, and also to everyone else who chimed in. The more of these stories we hear, the better. Especially when they are first-hand reports like this one!
And, sorry I left it out of previous post, CONGRATULATIONS!!!
From one former US draft dodger to another … keep the faith and keep on truckin’ (sorry, I’m dating myself big-time with that one …)
Thank you John. I feel some comfort knowing that it is possible to “prove” I have not been a U.S. citizen since 1972. I am certainly going to follow through with Access to Information to get a signed copy of my oath and relinquishment.
Also, I notice on DOS form-4083, “Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States”, there is a line that states: “That: he/she thereby expatriated ___self on (Date) under the provisions of …..”. I understand that to therefore mean the CLN might be dated today’s date but attests to the “Relinquishment” having taken place at the earlier date. I am sure you will be fine regarding the IRS.
Just got a call from the Consulate in Halifax. They want to move up my appointment date.They want to clear up the back log as they are many people who want to renounce over the tax thing. They want me to fax all my info and filled out forms in advance of my appointment.
@Mach7
all the State Dept does after they have processed a CLN is send a copy to IRS. It is not their job to deal with compliance.
It is the 8854 where you get to deal with compliance.
Congratulations johnnb! Couldn’t be happier to hear how you are now a “relinquishant” instead of a “renunciant” 😉
John,
Everyone posting on this blog wishes you the best. Please keep us up to date as this progresses.
From what I conclude looking the relinquishing/reneunciation forms available on-line your request has to be approved by a number of US departments and agencies before it is finally approved. I certainly hope and pray that all of these go smoothly and nothing comes up to delay the approval. When it is finally approved it appears that it will be effective retroactive to the date that you signed the forms. I suspect that the reason the Consul did not give you copies of anything is that you will receive what you need only when your application receives final approval.
Thanks everyone for your encouraging words.
I will report back any news but from what has been posted here I suspect it will be quite a while before anything happens.
Johnbb: All the best one this one and my fingers are crossed. I’m wondering — does anyone have any experiences at other consulates — and in particular Vancouver — with this kind of approach? It strikes me that how you are treated might differ from consulate to consulate. If anyone has tried this in Vancouver, I’d love to hear about it.
A friend just returned from Halifax. They told him his application was a “slam dunk.”
Born in the U.S. parents moved him back to Canada as a teenager and he’s been here ever since.
They also told him it would be 2 to 6 months. Hope that applies to all of us.